Quote from: walkerp;256333Can you give me a hypothetical example of a small way in which Maid could damage the hobby?  I'm honestly curious how this would work.

If it brings into the hobby ONE hentai-freaking socially retarded lawncrapper; the kind that live in their parents' basement, soil their underwear and have restraining orders around playgrounds, who gets "into" RPGs not because he likes playing them, but because he thinks its a "safe" place to act the way he acts, and where people "get" him.
Tolerate one, and pretty soon you have hundreds.
Then you have regular people leaving in disgust.

Maid does this by contributing, along with almost all the other Forger games, to the overall feeling that "this is the sort of stuff we RPG gamers are into!".
Its like putting up a big sign saying "Lawncrappers welcome!".

RPGPundit

Quote from: Age of Fable;256331So any argument that there are more important things that we should be doing is correct, applies equally to the person making it, and misses the point.

It's not an either/or issue, though. We all believe there's some amount of time people "deserve" or "are allowed" to spend being entertained, and roleplaying is one of the ways we entertain ourselves. That said, given the strenuous level of objection to this game, it does seem as if those people objecting most strongly should be spending some amount of time protecting actual children, rather than objecting to people pretending to be children.

In short, if you don't like child molestation, you're certainly within your rights to object to a game in which such molestation is possible or encouraged, but you also ought to be spending vastly more time protecting real children. You can do both, absolutely! But I don't think many of the objectors are doing both, and that is most illogical.

Quote from: Engine;256307So, do any of you spend this much time campaigning against actual child abuse against actual children?

As a matter of fact, I do.

Quote from: Engine;256307How much time this week did you spend keeping real-world children from being abused? As much, or more, than you spent complaining about a game in which it is possible for underage children to experience sexual activities?

About 40 hours every week.  

Now that we have that out of the way, can I say that I find this game creepy?  Do I win the argument because of where I happen to work?


TGA

Quote from: Age of Fable;256340"Oh, this looks like those Sailor Moon comics that Sarah reads, I'll get that for her."

Okay, I can see that.  But that danger exists in every medium already.  I mean you can say that about another manga, one that might be much more racy than Sailor Moon.  To me, that's on the parents shoulders to make sure that what they are giving their children is appropriate.

I just gave Changeling: The Lost to the 13-year old daughter of a friend of mine.  I skimmed through it and found some fairly realistic violence.  I spoke to a bunch of friends who have played the game to get their input and then I sent an email to the father checking if it was cool and giving him the overview.  He responded that it would be cool and that she is reading these Holly Black novels that are pretty racy.  He's a good dad and will probably end up reading the book himself.

Quote from: RPGPundit;256342If it brings into the hobby ONE hentai-freaking socially retarded lawncrapper; the kind that live in their parents' basement, soil their underwear and have restraining orders around playgrounds, who gets "into" RPGs not because he likes playing them, but because he thinks its a "safe" place to act the way he acts, and where people "get" him.

Quote from: walkerp;256322Squine.

But you should. That would be hilarious.  The "edgy" squirrel supplement.  The title sells itself.

I honestly do not know if I could write it.

On topic: I did my share of "defending of the faith" in the 80s. Then it was about DND driving you crazy and having you go off into some steam tunnel and kill yourself or others. Strangely enough, those old defenses work well here.

If you have mental/social problems, you will bring it to the game. So, if you like molesting children or even play acting molesting children, you will bring it to the table. If you have no inhibitions about killing people, you will most likely kill people eventually. Gaming is not going to "make" you kill someone.

Now, if we are talking about "pollution" of the game pool meaning games that draw a type of personality to the hobby, well, I think you over estimate:
1. The draw of an indie game
2. The press it would get even if it was noticed by mainstream media
3. The effect such games have on the hobby.

So, IMO, it comes down to being a "defender of the faith" or not wanting to acknowledge that this is a great hobby where you get some great games and some not so great games and some real crap. Call crap for what it is. Don't buy it. Don't talk about it (short of offering your opinion on the subject matter). However, to suggest it is a tool to "destroy" the hobby...hyperbole.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPundit;256342Tolerate one, and pretty soon you have hundreds.

Like Mexicans and look what happened to America!

Quote from: Engine;256343It's not an either/or issue, though. We all believe there's some amount of time people "deserve" or "are allowed" to spend being entertained, and roleplaying is one of the ways we entertain ourselves. That said, given the strenuous level of objection to this game, it does seem as if those people objecting most strongly should be spending some amount of time protecting actual children, rather than objecting to people pretending to be children.

In short, if you don't like child molestation, you're certainly within your rights to object to a game in which such molestation is possible or encouraged, but you also ought to be spending vastly more time protecting real children. You can do both, absolutely! But I don't think many of the objectors are doing both, and that is most illogical.

Actually, I'd say your position is illogical.

For one thing, continually speaking out about things like child sexual abuse and enforcing a social more that it is not acceptable to promote those ideas does help actual children.  Are you not aware of the metric ton of psychological studies about how fantasies of this kind of behavior feeds the compulsions of sex offenders?

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;256346As a matter of fact, I do.

Excellent!

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;256346Now that we have that out of the way, can I say that I find this game creepy?  Do I win the argument because of where I happen to work?

Yeah, I don't think you understand what I was trying to get at. I'm not saying that if you find this game creepy, you must work against child molestation or else be barred from vocal objection; what I'm saying is that if you find this game creepy, you should work against child molestation.

If Maid bothers you - given that it's a fantasy game which allows for the possibility of objectionable behavior - then the real world should blow you into a fury of charity. It's easy to spend a few hours on a message forum, running your mouth, but if you really and truly object to the game on this basis, you should do more than speak out against it, you should work against the problem itself in real life. You, Good Assyrian, do so, and that is laudable. Many people do not, and I believe they should.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat random Maid generator is very interesting. You can randomly generate a 10-year old Sexy Maid who has a transparent uniform, freckles, smokes, has the quality of "former prostitute", and has the "stress" that "when she's extremely upset, will drink alcohol or drugs until she can't remember anymore".

Yes, this sounds like a perfectly wholesome game.

That character generation in GURPS is interesting. You can, if you want generate -4+3i years old sexy cthulhu/human hybrid space maid, who is space nazi-commie, is marryed to her father (cthulhu), is into BDSM, drugs and likes them young.

Yes, this sounds like a perfectly wholesome game.

Quote from: jgants;256351For one thing, continually speaking out about things like child sexual abuse and enforcing a social more that it is not acceptable to promote those ideas does help actual children.

I don't think anyone's actions in this thread are going to stop the production of Maid; I think it's at least as possible that it'll actually sell copies of the game. I certainly don't think objecting in this thread is as productive as other means of protecting abused children. That's not to say such vocal objections cannot be useful; they can indeed. But in isolation, and in places where very few will hear, they're not that useful on their own.

Quote from: jgants;256351Are you not aware of the metric ton of psychological studies about how fantasies of this kind of behavior feeds the compulsions of sex offenders?

Yeah, you know that thesis is highly under debate, right? I mean, this is the "Playboy causes rape," argument, and while there's data to suggest that media can influence people toward action, there's also data to suggest that it can prevent action by giving the actor an outlet which is not harmful to actual children. I don't think there's positive data from either side of the argument; too many people with too many preconceptions on both sides.

Quote from: RPGPundit;256327Its about protecting my fucking hobby from the Swine that want to destroy it.

I've never met a single person who wants to destroy the hobby. I've met a few outside of the hobby who would like to limit it, or monitor it-but never anyone who would destroy it.

Maybe Uruguay and Canada are much more dangerous places than I first thought them to be.

Quote from: RPGPundit;256342Tolerate one, and pretty soon you have hundreds.

Besides being an absurd comment, for obvious reasons, has this ever happened to your group? Has someone showed up and ruined your fun?  If so maybe try what we've done and stop gaming with those douchebags who ruin your fun.

Just a suggestion.

If you're worried about the hobby imploding from this single game, or even several more games just like it-or even worse-I have some ocean front property in Kansas I'd like to sell you.

Quote from: RPGPundit...along with almost all the other Forger games...

How many Forge games have you read? Don't bother with answering, you allready did it in the line I quoted above... zero.

Quote from: GrimGent;256305And Rook Catchfly from Nobilis remains "eternally underage" which mostly poses a problem because she has a terrible crush on a man who never even realizes her feelings since in his eyes she's just a child. Playing teenagers or even younger characters than that isn't unprecedented, as said before.

Wait, are you saying the older person has an entirely appropriate reaction to the affections of an underage person?  In other words, they aren't having this underage girl perform humiliating, sexual acts?

How are those correlated again?  In one, the behaviour towards an underage girl is entirely appropriate, and in the other it isn't.  Who here said that teenaged crushes are disgusting or inappropriate for RPGs?  Are you saying that a teenage crush is the same thing as sexualizing an eleven year old?

StormBringer: Something's telling me, that being "eternaly underage" doesn't mean being child... think about it, you could be hundrets years old and you would still be "underage"... poor Rook, that must suck!