Quote from: GrimGent;256044Well, I'd say that remains a distinct option in any game with relationship mechanics and rules for resolving seduction attempts, and it's worth keeping in mind that "seduction" doesn't automatically lead to sex as such. The only difference with Maid is that a single NPC's favour becomes all-important to the exclusion of everything else: the same could happen in any RPG that emphasizes one relationship over all others. Even Sailor Moon has a history of redeeming villains like Nephrite through love, although that isn't represented by a stat in the system.

The same thing could happen in any RPG where the characters could be underage, could have the attribute 'Sexy', and where the game has a specific rule for how having sex with 'Master' increases your stats...which isn't really any RPG then.

Yes, you could have the same scenario in d20 (eg). But the difference is that d20 doesn't have the Lolita Feat. There's no evidence that the creators of d20 sat down and said "I think these rules are frustratingly vague when it comes to statutory rape". There is some evidence that the creators of 'Maid' thought something like that.

d20's detailed combat rules are taken to show that in d20 you're meant to be fighting things. The same logic should be applied to 'Maid'. I don't get why this is controversial.

I also don't get how you can have a review that in effect says "it's funny...you know, like pornography", and not everyone goes "OK, something's not quite right here."

Having read through my participation to this thread, i have to agree with Serious Paul.

I tried to get my point across in as clear a possible voice and hammered it home too aggressively. I was dismissive of 3 people in particular, and 3 in a less serious fashion. I feel strongly about the responsibility of the author in the likely outcomes of the games he writes. I was too strident and aggressive in making my points.

Apologies to Hinterwelt, Walkerp and Engine, in particular, and David R, Fritz and JHKim, also.

I didn't want to stifle debate, but was too intent on getting my point across.

Quote from: Drew;256082Video games get their share of national-level bad press over here, as does homophobic gangster rap and various other stuff.

From the Moral Majority?

Quote from: One Horse Town;256075In that case, i apologise for being petulant.

Not at all, good sir. You would need to produce ten thousand times more unpleasantness to even register against the ledger of content you've given to us all, myself most particularly included. Your apology is only another unnecessary and impressive positive entry in the balance sheets.

Quote from: StormBringer;256086From the Moral Majority?

Ah, I see. You're using caps to make a political observation that I as a foreigner am an unlikely to apprehend. Unlucky, I wasn't referring to your defunct political organisation.

In the UK the term has meaning, often referring to a collection of homogenous yet distinct groups that appear to share a voice, including Parent groups, certain religious organisations, prominent Members of Parliament and newspapers that maintain circulation by holding Britain to standards of moral conduct that are largely based on fear. The usual suspects, in other words.

Nice try though.

Quote from: StormBringer;256086From the Moral Majority?

Capitals imply the proper noun, but the Moral Majority ceased to exist as a proper entity in the late 80s. There is certainly still a moral majority, but that shouldn't be capitalized, lest it lead to confusion. Quotes probably wouldn't hurt, though.

[edit: Beaten to the punch. Sorry, Drew.]

Quote from: Age of Fable;256083The same thing could happen in any RPG where the characters could be underage, could have the attribute 'Sexy', and where the game has a specific rule for how having sex with 'Master' increases your stats...which isn't really any RPG then.

Practically any game that I can think of allows underage PCs, especially as a disadvantage such as "Ageism" in Sailor Moon RPG which in the extreme cases can result in someone playing a six-year-old. Any game with player-determined traits would certainly allow someone to define a character as "Sexy", beginning with Over the Edge (and in Maid that's in any case just a random modifier which has less effect on actual play than, say, the Vice of Lust in World of Darkness). And that sex with the Master may increase Favour is simply another mechanical aspect of the most important relationship in the game. Frankly, I'm not seeing the problem with those.

Quote from: StormBringer;256079It remains silent now.  I would say that has as much to do with its focus on other areas as its lack of relevance these days.  

Or rather with the internet they can afford to continue to attack RPG's with out expending any real effort-simultaneously keeping the "fight alive" (So if they ever do get to be on TV again they can), and reaching just as many people as they may previously have in a much more interactive environment. (That much easier to reinforce their  own self-righteous beliefs.)

So I'd say that their not silent, rather they've simply just changed their medium.

"Fear and Self-Loathing in a Lost Subculture" by RPG Pundit.  

You're such a social winner you had to flee your homeland to make friends.

Kyle Aaron, have you read Maid or Poison'd?

[Probably response:  "No, I don't have to.  I read a post about an AP report."]

You guys are so frightened and uninformed, it's embarrassing.  Look at all those media that have suffered from having tasteless or potentially shocking content:  music, movies, literature, comics.  How they have suffered!

Go fuck yourselves, you losers.  You are the catpissmen.

Quote from: walkerp;256101Go fuck yourselves, you losers.  You are the catpissmen.

Wouldn't they be the nerd-raging grognards?

So, you've read 'em both, walkerp?

And also, make up your mind, is it that people aren't informed or that they're prudes?

Personally I think there's plenty enough info on Poison'd, from the author's intent through the reception of the game by enthusiastic fans. Granted, I might be able to play the game in a non-sick way, but the stuff that been put up that's supposed to be positive examples of play? It's crap. I don't have to "tolerate" or "embrace" it any more than I have to tolerate The Turner Diaries just because I like to read books.

On Maid, again, I think the translator's intent has been misunderstood, for sure. The intent of the original is also unclear--there's bad stuff there, which Andy owns up to, but people here are assuming stuff that's much worse, without clear justification. (i.e., exactly what is going on with the broomstick--go back to the links I posted).

Anyway, turning to Fritzs, and on a similar note, the alternatives to translating/adapting a reprehensible work whole include not only expurgating it, but, of course, simply not taking on the project in the first place. Again, speaking in the general case--not specifically about Maid. If someone asked me to translate RaHoWa into another language, my response would be one of

"What exactly do you think is worth salvaging in this?"
"How do you intend to frame this, because I'm not interested in disseminating this crap for unmediated consumption? Presumably this is to aid in the study of American sickos? Or you plan to point out the faint merits of the design while disclaiming the offensive aspects of most of the work, whilst making some point about the need to let the reader make up his or her own mind?"
"No, you sicko."

[Start Sarcasm] Wow Walker, classy. Real classy. [End Sarcasm]

You know, certain games attract certain kinds of players. The genre and the rules mechanics of a game will appeal to players who are interested in those aspects. In short, you are what you play.

So, personally, I wouldn't be interested in gaming with someone who enjoyed or pushes a game where cabin boy neck rape is encouraged (Poison'd), where a major American social issue like Abortion is trivialized into a d20 supplement (Faith & Blood), or where players are supposed to be the potential victims of abusive behavior and enjoy it since that is their social station (Maid).

Quote from: Drew;256090Ah, I see. You're using caps to make a political observation that I as a foreigner am an unlikely to apprehend. Unlucky, I wasn't referring to your defunct political organisation.

And you are hiding behind a disingenuous 'foreign ignorance' that you have given lie to yourself.  If you use 'moral majority' to mean Conservatives, Liberals, Tories, or whatever political/social grouping you prefer, rest assured that most here will know what you are referring to.

QuoteIn the UK the term has meaning, often referring to a collection of homogenous yet distinct groups that appear to share a voice, including Parent groups, certain religious organisations, prominent Members of Parliament and newspapers that maintain circulation by holding Britain to standards of moral conduct that are largely based on fear. The usual suspects, in other words.

Nice try though.

In the US, the term has meaning, referring to a specific group that no longer has any real voice.  If you want to discuss the situation as it applies to the UK, I have no objection.  I think pretty much everyone here realizes that things were never as bad overseas as they were in the US.

Nice try, though.

Quote from: GrimGent;256095Practically any game that I can think of allows underage PCs, especially as a disadvantage such as "Ageism" in Sailor Moon RPG which in the extreme cases can result in someone playing a six-year-old. Any game with player-determined traits would certainly allow someone to define a character as "Sexy", beginning with Over the Edge (and in Maid that's in any case just a random modifier which has less effect on actual play than, say, the Vice of Lust in World of Darkness). And that sex with the Master may increase Favour is simply another mechanical aspect of the most important relationship in the game. Frankly, I'm not seeing the problem with those.

Well, "Sexy" is a commonly-rolled character trait in Maid -- as I recall a 1/6th chance -- so it's not equivalent to making up your own trait of that sort in OtE.  In the convention game I played, no one rolled that, and no one used any seduction rules -- but there is a definite racy theme to the game.  

On the other hand, I don't recall there being anything to suggest that a PC be underage.  I didn't note my character's age, and I think it is just player's choice.