Kellri: Don't compare snakes to disgusting tentacle rape... snakes are cute, unlike tentacle rape.

Quote from: GrimGent;256027Eh, more accurately that's the reviewer flippantly joking about a randomly generated character which isn't quite turning out as he expected, not a GM talking to anyone else at the table. Like everything else, whether a given group chooses to turn up the dial on romance or naughtiness is a decision left entirely up to the players.

In Sailor Moon, the relationship between Usagi Tsukino and Mamoru Chiba drives the storyline, and Makoto Kino's ex-boyfriends are a running joke throughout the show. Both of those girls are thirteen as the first season of the series begins. They are also fully statted out and playable in the SM RPG. Would that be a problem for you?

Erm...but they're not having sex with their boss to get favour are they? Surely having a specific mechanic where that can happen is at least a bit 'off'?

Quote from: Drew;256030For almost thirty-five years gaming has remained impervious to the daily harm even the weirdest slice of it's demographic inflicts. Beyond that it's been banned at schools, linked to devil worship and cited along with heavy metal music as the inspiration for a number of murders and suicides. It has survived bad press on a scale so massive as to leave the whole "Maid controversy" in the dust. This is a non-issue for 99.99% of the hobby, let alone those few moral guardians who still can be bothered to keep tabs on it.

Quoted for truth.

Quote from: Age of Fable;256039Erm...but they're not having sex with their boss to get favour are they? Surely having a specific mechanic where that can happen is at least a bit 'off'?

Well, I'd say that remains a distinct option in any game with relationship mechanics and rules for resolving seduction attempts, and it's worth keeping in mind that "seduction" doesn't automatically lead to sex as such. The only difference with Maid is that a single NPC's favour becomes all-important to the exclusion of everything else: the same could happen in any RPG that emphasizes one relationship over all others. Even Sailor Moon has a history of redeeming villains like Nephrite through love, although that isn't represented by a stat in the system.

Quote from: Drew;256030For almost thirty-five years gaming has remained impervious to the daily harm even the weirdest slice of it's demographic inflicts. Beyond that it's been banned at schools, linked to devil worship and cited along with heavy metal music as the inspiration for a number of murders and suicides. It has survived bad press on a scale so massive as to leave the whole "Maid controversy" in the dust. This is a non-issue for 99.99% of the hobby, let alone those few moral guardians who still can be bothered to keep tabs on it.

Except devil-worship and heavy metal are cool with the youngsters these (those?) days.  I am pretty sure there was never a similar widespread perception about molesting an 11 year old in a maid outfit with a broomstick.

In other words, the more devil-worshippy it was, the more separated from their parents' worldview they were, which made them happy.  I am pretty sure more 11-year-old-maid-molesty-ness won't have the same response.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256021Which is as close to invisible as anyone can really get. Let's not split fine semantic hairs, here.

I'm not. I'm just amused that you continue to maintain that as a hobby we are invisible despite the numerous references to the hobby in mainstream pop culture.

QuoteAs I said, I don't think covers have much effect. I agree with you that the behaviour of people is much stronger in creating images of the groups involved.

Well I think behavior leaves a much stronger impression but I do think that dodgy covers contibute to the negative perceptions of gamers.

QuoteWe've seen the actual play reports of many such games. So - those players. Go back and look at old threads, there was no chance of my meeting and playing with them so I didn't bother memorising their names.

And you haven't read what some people do in their mainstream games ? There's a thread on tBP which asked what's the worst thing your character has ever done in a game?, believe me the responses were pretty shocking.

Now of course I realize there are gamers out there who are sickos, no doubt about it, but would you call people who play Dogs in the Vineyard, Steal Away Jordan or Grey Ranks, deviants ?

I have said (here and tBP) that I thought the promotional tactic for Poison'd was pretty dumb and didn't really explain what the game was about. I have no doubt that the game is pretty bleak but considering the subject matter and the author's past work this really does not surprise me.

QuoteWhere did I say that?

You implied it in response to my comment about the hostility the Froge and gamers who play Forge games get around here.

QuoteI said their deviant desires expressed in games might harm the image of the hobby, or might not, but certainly wouldn't help it.

And what exactly are these deviant desires ? With Maid I can see what you mean. The Poison'd APs were a stupid promotional stunt. What about the other games that supposedly harm the hobby ? Can you give me a couple of other examples.

QuoteYes, thank God it never happens that the actions of a tiny minority of fucksticks come to make people outside that group view the whole group as just like those fucksticks.

Well it happens kyle, but is it happening here ? Are these games to blame or do mainstream gamers bring it upon themsleves. How many non-gamers have heard of the Froge ? How many have witnessed the stupid shit that gamers do in public ?
 

QuoteThe thing is that in mainstream games, stupid shit is neither encouraged nor discouraged; in these games, it's encouraged. It's a bit like the difference between basketball and rugby and the number of bruises you can expect to get - in either game, a player can just up and smack someone in the head if he wants to, but since rugby is designed to have people bashing into each-other, the head punches are far more likely to show up there.

Well here's the thing kyle. IMO it's not about encouragement it's about context. Surely in a game about violence , the characters will be violent.

QuoteSo, you know, everyone's heard the stories of the woman gamer who games for the first time and another PC rapes her character, and the GM, giggling, makes her roll a save vs pregnancy. This shit is far more likely when you get xp for it, as in Poison'd.

From what I have read of Poison'd it's a little bit more complicated than that. And it's far more likely to happen because that's what the game is about. That's what I meant by context. And really kyle, do I have to remind you that women complaining that their characters getting raped has a long shameful tradition in mainstream gaming. And the games didn't even call for it. Gamers cooked this up all by themselves.

QuoteWhen someone is a deviant fuck in a game of (say) D&D, we can just write it off as, "well, that's just one guy, every place has one..." That's a bit harder with some of these games. I mean, just look at AndyK defending Maid.
So girls are stripping each-other naked and humiliating each-other, but it's not sexual at all. Yeah, okay.
A completely non-sexual relationship where an adult dominates a child dressed in a maid uniform, and... er... where's Mythusmage? He'd love this.
[quote-Andy K]There's a moment where two characters (one, a cyborg who appears to be of age 11) almost exchange a kiss, but given the context of the game, it's not humiliating, abusive, etc. I hope that those give a clearer picture of what the game is about.
Underaged cyborgs almost getting it on? What the fuck?

Like I said compared to something like Black Tokyo this game seems rather tame. Personally I don't get the appeal, but I understand why some would consider it deviant.

QuoteFucked-up shit can appear anywhere, absolutely. I know, I've seen it a lot. But there's a difference when it's designed into the game.

So games like Vampire, Werewolf etc are deviant ?

QuoteYes, the way you play is an expression of you. And many of those games give rather mixed messages - like UA, its combat chapter begins with this lecture on "killing is bad, m'kay?" and then gives you a list of 72 different types of firearms and 97 different types of ammo - compared to 80 or so example skills, only 24 or so of which were described beyond their title. So, what are the authours really telling us? They're rather confused. And they're not the only ones.

Maybe you are right kyle. Maybe people who play White Wolf games are deviants. People who play UA are confused. People who play CoC are obsessive. Maybe the only sane functional people are those that enjoy heroic fantasy and D&D - 3e of course. Or maybe just maybe how you play is an expression of what you consider escapism and really has nothing to do with you. A person may like violence in movies but in real life is repulsed by it.

QuoteAgain, it's not the subject matter itself, but its treatment.

You keep saying this. But at the same time you throw around term like emo tourism, misery tourism etc when it comes to difficult subject matter.

QuoteSo I think virtually anything is fair to put in an rpg session. But where the PCs are the people doing or suffering truly nasty things, or where the GM gets his jollies describing the nasty shit while the players squirm - nope, wrong way, go back.

You are aware that PCs doing or suffering truly nasty things can be part of a gaming experience which has nothing to do with either party - GM or players -getting their jollies but rather just the kind of entertainment they enjoy ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: droog;255981I have to explain myself so much these days. Come back, Pierce Inverarity! Come back, Settembrini! All is forgiven!

If you weren't bent on identifying yourself as the inside, huddling together against outside impressions, you wouldn't be so worried about how people see 'the hobby'.

You see roleplaying games in general as a sci-fi bookstore, while I see no reason why they can't cover every topic covered by the novel and then some. And authors like Stephen King and Bret Easton Ellis seem to be moderately successful in their respective niches. The mainstream is already there.

Droog, you're so estranged from the fucking mainstream that you wouldn't recognize it if it slept with you're sister.

And of course, most of the time, that's something you take glee in. As if its somehow an accomplishment to be someone incapable of acting normally in regular society.  Most of the time, when you're not trying to win points by pretending that child rape is the mainstream, of course.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David R;256047I have said (here and tBP) that I thought the promotional tactic for Poison'd was pretty dumb and didn't really explain what the game was about. I have no doubt that the game is pretty bleak but considering the subject matter and the author's past work this really does not surprise me.

From what I have read of Poison'd it's a little bit more complicated than that. And it's far more likely to happen because that's what the game is about. That's what I meant by context. And really kyle, do I have to remind you that women complaining that their characters get raped has a long shameful tradition in mainstream gaming. And the games didn't even call for it. Gamers cooked this up of it all by themselves.

It was no promotional tactic - it is what the game promotes, results in and was designed for.

As such, and as a strident believer in system matters, Vincent Baker is as responsible for what happens at the table as the players themselves.

If you're an author of a book or a film and you tackle a controversial subject, you are trying to affect folks perceptions. It's non-interactive. You can employ narrative tricks to baffle that perception. If you are an author of an RPG, an interactive medium, and you are an acolyte of system matters, you are trying to affect folks behaviour via positive reinforcment and the like. Perception and behaviour are two vastly different things.

What you choose to do with your meddling with the players behaviour says a lot. It also draws folk who like that behaviour.

Any game can result in fucked up stuff. Reinforcing it is not only a different ball-game, it's a different sport, in a different town and wearing different clothes.

Well yes OHT, hence the bolded part of my post. I'm not really familiar with the sin rules of Poison'd, but it not as clear cut as what kyle said. The choice of good or evil is up to the player and there are consequences for both.

Regards,
David R

I agree with OHT about that.

Quote from: David R;256052Well yes OHT, hence the bolded part of my post. I'm not really familiar with the sin rules of Poison'd, but it not as clear cut as what kyle said. The choice of good or evil is up to the player and there are consequences for both.

Regards,
David R

Yeah, you can choose to be the abuser or the abused.

I cannot abide any more of this discussion that unfairly demonizes and slanders something I like.

And by that, I mean WTF is up with Kyle trashing on Saw?  

Seriously though, the Saw movies are graphic, but they also have plots.  Perhaps they may be considered sub-par thrillers (particularly the sequels), but they are still thrillers.  Also, they are hardly misogynistic - most of the victims are men (with a few heroic women).

Methinks you are confusing Saw with its sleazier, brainless torture-porn imitators like Hostel.

Quote from: One Horse Town;256055Yeah, you can choose to be the abuser or the abused.

See?  It's art.  

Quote from: One Horse Town;256055Yeah, you can choose to be the abuser or the abused.

Well yeah, I mean there a few other options, of course, but the game is bleak.

Regards,
David R

I guess the thing that strikes me about these games is that they're not actually particularly fucked-up; they're like a parody of real evil, like someone making fun of people's perceptions of what's actually really bad. And yet, dozens of people react with fear and horror and hatred at what's ultimately about a thousand times less bad than, say, real life, much less your average hentai. I didn't know so many gamers were such...hmm. Puritans? Pussies? Moralists? I suppose it depends on how charitably you view the opinion.