A friend started running a Starfinder campaign and, against my general dislike of too many types of candy in the candy bowl, I ended up really enjoying it.
You can see that it borrowed heavily from Pathfinder, but changed enough to make it its own system. Taking damage and healing are really different.
But from what I am reading, Pathfinder 2.0 sort of goes in a different direction. Am I missing something in which anything good is coming from Starfinder to Pathfinder 2?
Remember how WotC used their various d20 Star Wars versions to test the waters for new rules in D&D? That is what it looks like Paizo is doing with Starfinder and Pathfinder.
Quote from: Lynn;1095756A friend started running a Starfinder campaign and, against my general dislike of too many types of candy in the candy bowl, I ended up really enjoying it.
You can see that it borrowed heavily from Pathfinder, but changed enough to make it its own system. Taking damage and healing are really different.
But from what I am reading, Pathfinder 2.0 sort of goes in a different direction. Am I missing something in which anything good is coming from Starfinder to Pathfinder 2?
I really like the Starfinder Beginner Box. But I understand it is very different from the main system. Not like 5e where the starter set is fully compatible with the core rules.
Quote from: Lynn;1095756But from what I am reading, Pathfinder 2.0 sort of goes in a different direction. Am I missing something in which anything good is coming from Starfinder to Pathfinder 2?
I believe that it was a different design team working on Starfinder then on Pathfinder 2e so yes I imagine that they probably go in different directions.
Interesting thread. Put me in the camp of folks who enjoy Starfinder a lot more than Pathfinder, and what I'm hearing about PF2 makes me think I will probably like Starfinder better than that one as well. I'm not sure why they didn't use Starfinder as their PF2 design model.
It's Paizo's Gamma World!
Quote from: Spinachcat;1095799It's Paizo's Gamma World!
I was thinking more along the line of Alternity.
Paizo needs to support Starfinder, and keep it going. It's a good leg for them to stand on. PF2E is a roll of the dice.
Quote from: Razor 007;1095815Paizo needs to support Starfinder, and keep it going. It's a good leg for them to stand on. PF2E is a roll of the dice.
Remember to add proficiency and level to the roll.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1095812I was thinking more along the line of Alternity.
This is the vibe I got from it as well. As I was looking at the images, it felt very Star*Drive to me.
P.S.: Although I think Starfinder leans more to the fantasy aspect, while Alternity's Star*Drive leaned more towards the Sci-Fi aspect.
Quote from: BronzeDragon;1095824This is the vibe I got from it as well. As I was looking at the images, it felt very Star*Drive to me.
P.S.: Although I think Starfinder leans more to the fantasy aspect, while Alternity's Star*Drive leaned more towards the Sci-Fi aspect.
I was thinking Alternity for the "Let's make a new D&D. OK, we have this new system that's fairly well-received we can go from. No, we're going to do something different...and let's kill that system you were talking about too."
Quote from: Razor 007;1095815Paizo needs to support Starfinder, and keep it going. It's a good leg for them to stand on. PF2E is a roll of the dice.
Quote from: Shasarak;1095823Remember to add proficiency and level to the roll.
Paizo is a level 10 publisher. They have basic proficiency in Internet Memes and have 6 ranks in Persuasion.
Paizo rolls a d20....
14! Plus 10, plus proficiency, plus 6 = 32! Easily overcoming the rumors of imminent failure.
Why is it a red-headed step-child? I thought that was a snark saying "this person is the fiery rebel of the family, not well regarded, not well behaved...". I would say then that no, SF is not. It's more like the straight-B unassuming younger sibling who weathers every family blow-up by sitting at the table and coloring quietly.
I think if anything, Starfinder is what will keep Paizo afloat. I would not be surprised if it ends up being more popular than PF2
Quote from: finarvyn;1095797Interesting thread. Put me in the camp of folks who enjoy Starfinder a lot more than Pathfinder, and what I'm hearing about PF2 makes me think I will probably like Starfinder better than that one as well. I'm not sure why they didn't use Starfinder as their PF2 design model.
In the same context, I cannot help but think of Star Wars Saga, D&D 4E, and the number of people who thought Saga should have inspired the 4E design.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1095812I was thinking more along the line of Alternity.
Agreed.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1095799It's Paizo's Gamma World!
I should have explained that. I know Starfinder is a space fantasy, not post-apoc. What I meant was the comparison with how TSR and WotC did GW editions with a load of initial hoopla, but then fizzle fizzle and the fans of GW were left adrift. Of course, this might not happen with StarFinder as there's 3PP support for the game on DriveThruRPG so the fanbase alone could keep the fanbase engaged.
Quote from: JeremyR;1095878I think if anything, Starfinder is what will keep Paizo afloat. I would not be surprised if it ends up being more popular than PF2
I find this very likely. Starfinder will do well, PF2 will kinda hobble alongside PF1 (which the players will keep alive with their existing books) until Paizo puts PF2 out of it's misery and does PF3.
Hell, this is all very new-Coke-ish.
I never played Alternity, though I guess the Sasquatch Studios guys did a reissue or update to it (I just saw a small form printing of it in Guardian Games in Portland - small size, big price).
It seems odd to me make so many changes with SF but not use that as the basis for PF2. There is no reason why you couldn't do an all fantasy riff, or an all science fiction one either. It has two types of spells already. Why support multiple systems if your base system is so flexible that you don't just extend that with thematic paradigms?
One thing it does make me think of is a panel based game character creator in its presentation, ie theme > race > class > skills > feats. Maybe PF 2 is their refining / expansion of that paradigm, plus the new funky codes to make it less like D&D.
Quote from: trechriron;1095876Why is it a red-headed step-child? I thought that was a snark saying "this person is the fiery rebel of the family, not well regarded, not well behaved...". I would say then that no, SF is not. It's more like the straight-B unassuming younger sibling who weathers every family blow-up by sitting at the table and coloring quietly.
More like the on the edge of the table half exile. Besides, Gingers don't seem to be a protected class yet ;-)
Quote from: Lynn;1095927Besides, Gingers don't seem to be a protected class yet ;-)
That's because they're demons!!!
Quote from: S'mon;1095774I really like the Starfinder Beginner Box. But I understand it is very different from the main system. Not like 5e where the starter set is fully compatible with the core rules.
Really? So they made the same mistake they made with the Pathfinder beginner box again by making them incompatible with the main game?
Paizo truly cannot into game design.
Starfinder bothers me by being far too incomplete in the core book. It was purposefully written to be able to plug in future books.
I hate that design choice and have seen plenty of other systems write far more with less.
For example: equipment. Rather than giving ways to build and calculate item level/cost, they have incomplete lists of items to flesh out in a later armory book. The mech rules in the core book are useless because so few mechs are listed that for vast suaves of levels they are useless compared to cheap heavy armor.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1096036Starfinder bothers me by being far too incomplete in the core book. It was purposefully written to be able to plug in future books.
That could be why Starfinder never appealed to me: I never bought beyond the core book.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095925I find this very likely. Starfinder will do well, PF2 will kinda hobble alongside PF1 (which the players will keep alive with their existing books) until Paizo puts PF2 out of it's misery and does PF3.
Hell, this is all very new-Coke-ish.
I do admit that when I see those old 4e designers working at Paizo I worry if they are busy cooking up 4e 2 rather then Pathfinder 2.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1096036Starfinder bothers me by being far too incomplete in the core book.
Have you seen the size of the Starfinder core book? How big do you want that sucker to get to fit in all of your rules?
Quote from: Shasarak;1096093Have you seen the size of the Starfinder core book? How big do you want that sucker to get to fit in all of your rules?
888 pages [ATTACH=CONFIG]3603[/ATTACH]
Quote from: jeff37923;1096098888 pages
Even Traveller did not try and put it into one book.
Quote from: jeff37923;1096098888 pages
...
Quote from: Shasarak;1096100Even Traveller did not try and put it into one book.
Still though... BURN!!!
Quote from: trechriron;1096111Still though... BURN!!!
Starfinder Core 528 pages
Alien Archive 160 pages
Pact Worlds 216 pages
Total: 904 pages
In your face Traveller! In. Your. Face!
Quote from: Morblot;1096034Really? So they made the same mistake they made with the Pathfinder beginner box again by making them incompatible with the main game?
Paizo truly cannot into game design.
My understanding is that it is much less compatible than the PBB; two types of damage track are rolled into one, and skills are combined. The result IMO is a very nice clean game that is incompatible with the over-engineered guff they made for the 'real' game. So, like PBB vs PF only moreso. :D
If I run Starfinder I'll use the Beginner Box and E4 since it only goes to 4th level - after 4th level every advance gets you a Feat.
Quote from: Shasarak;1096100Even Traveller did not try and put it into one book.
Traveller 5.09 at 656 pages. In one book.
(With binding that doesn't have pages falling out, I might add.)
Quote from: trechriron;1096111...
Still though... BURN!!!
Traveller will feel mollified if people remember
Starfinder in 42 years after its creation.
Quote from: Shasarak;1096114Starfinder Core 528 pages
Alien Archive 160 pages
Pact Worlds 216 pages
Total: 904 pages
In your face Traveller! In. Your. Face!
"Even
Starfinder did not try and put it into one book." :D
Quote from: jeff37923;1096130Traveller 5.09 at 656 pages. In one book.
(With binding that doesn't have pages falling out, I might add.)
So was it 888 or 656? One book or three? 1st edition or 9.067th edition?
Honestly its hard to keep track.
QuoteTraveller will feel mollified if people remember Starfinder in 42 years after its creation.
Thats a pretty low bar to clear. Even the original little brown books have people remembering them after 42 years.
Quote from: Shasarak;1096132So was it 888 or 656? One book or three? 1st edition or 9.067th edition?
Honestly its hard to keep track.
Not for
Traveller fans...... :D
888 combined pages for the three books of
Traveller 5.10 and 656 pages in the one book of
Traveller 5.09.
Quote from: Shasarak;1096132a pretty low bar to clear. Even the original little brown books have people remembering them after 42 years.
And how many games can claim that? How many of those are still played?
Quote from: Shasarak;1096093Have you seen the size of the Starfinder core book? How big do you want that sucker to get to fit in all of your rules?
You joke, but there is more efficient ways to write rules. Especially the gear section. I don't need a list of 7 cryo rifles, I needed a way to calculate what a cryo rifle at each item level could do. The latter takes up less space and cover more ground.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1096138You joke, but there is more efficient ways to write rules. Especially the gear section. I don't need a list of 7 cryo rifles, I needed a way to calculate what a cryo rifle at each item level could do. The latter takes up less space and cover more ground.
I don't find the gear section that bad. You have maybe 3-6 lines per type of gun, and maybe 3-5 pages total for the gear stats.
What's interesting is reading the core Starfinder or Pathfinder books and trying to figure out what's taking up all the space! Each section isn't that big on it's own. I'm starting to suspect word bloat.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096147I don't find the gear section that bad. You have maybe 3-6 lines per type of gun, and maybe 3-5 pages total for the gear stats.
What's interesting is reading the core Starfinder or Pathfinder books and trying to figure out what's taking up all the space! Each section isn't that big on it's own. I'm starting to suspect word bloat.
What is bad is all the holes in the gear list, which I have heard is fixed with the armory book, but that is exactly my problem with the system.
But yes, 3.X Monte Cook era writing says little in lots of words. That's why Numenera is an 800+ page "rules light" game.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1096151What is bad is all the holes in the gear list, which I have heard is fixed with the armory book, but that is exactly my problem with the system.
I wouldn't call them holes. There are stretches between very specific weapon types, like (made up example) a sonic pistol at level 7 has it's next version at level 14. But there are plenty of pistol type weapons besides sonic, leaving only I think a 1 level gap between "upgrades". I'd have to check the tables to make sure.
I agree that it would be nice for a weapon system to generate weapons to cover all level ranges, but I didn't find it onerous without one.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096154I wouldn't call them holes. There are stretches between very specific weapon types, like (made up example) a sonic pistol at level 7 has it's next version at level 14. But there are plenty of pistol type weapons besides sonic, leaving only I think a 1 level gap between "upgrades". I'd have to check the tables to make sure.
I agree that it would be nice for a weapon system to generate weapons to cover all level ranges, but I didn't find it onerous without one.
Bah, with how fragmented the list is, many cool concepts you have for a character based off of gear are just non-viable through much of the level ranges. They had a bunch of neat ideas and then just failed to follow through. I'm still disappointed by the Mech section. There is what like 4 mechs and not all of them are even meant for combat. It's a large feat chain for a mechanic to be able to pilot one, but it'll only be useful for a couple of levels.
Overall I found Starfinder to be very onerous, especially compared to Stars Without Number, Savage Worlds, or even Numenera without offering any of the customization or mechanical depth that I expect a rule heavier game to offer.
Sure Starfinder is fine enough itself, but it's not by itself.
Quote from: JeremyR;1095878I think if anything, Starfinder is what will keep Paizo afloat. I would not be surprised if it ends up being more popular than PF2
Then they're doomed because it sunk from the #2 most popular game to the #4 most popular in a single quarter and is likely to sink off the top 5 list by the end of the year. Paizo is basically built based on being the #2, and if they are much below that I'd expect layoffs.
But realistically I think you're incorrect. PF2 should do fine. Starfinder will likely not see nearly as much support. Space games remain a more niche product than fantasy, for TRPGs.
Quote from: S'mon;1096129My understanding is that it is much less compatible than the PBB; two types of damage track are rolled into one, and skills are combined. The result IMO is a very nice clean game that is incompatible with the over-engineered guff they made for the 'real' game. So, like PBB vs PF only moreso. :D
If I run Starfinder I'll use the Beginner Box and E4 since it only goes to 4th level - after 4th level every advance gets you a Feat.
This is absolutely mind-boggling. The devs themselves said somewhere that the PBB being incompatible with the main game was a problem. And then they do this. I... I have no words.
Thank you for the info.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096147I don't find the gear section that bad. You have maybe 3-6 lines per type of gun, and maybe 3-5 pages total for the gear stats.
What's interesting is reading the core Starfinder or Pathfinder books and trying to figure out what's taking up all the space! Each section isn't that big on it's own. I'm starting to suspect word bloat.
Its the art. If you take out the multi full page spreads of different guns and armour then you have lots of room for....more guns and armour.
Quote from: Mistwell;1096164Space games remain a more niche product than fantasy, for TRPGs.
Sadly, I have found this to be true.
"Item level."
Tell me*, does Starfinder also have randomised loot boxes that you can reroll for better results if you pay some real money? Or, perhaps, save points that remember your progress so you can reload if the party dies? Enemies and loot that scale to your level? Situations during adventures that you can only solve in ways the [strike]programmers[/strike] authors thought of and wrote into the module?
Jesus wept.
*Don't, actually, I don't care.
Quote from: Premier;1096192"Item level."
I had a similar reaction. But in play, it's no more different than having a +1 sword then a +2 sword, etc. These games all have the leveling treadmill. Starfinder accepts it, and I think it's a better system for it.
QuoteTell me*, does Starfinder also have randomised loot boxes that you can reroll for better results if you pay some real money? Or, perhaps, save points that remember your progress so you can reload if the party dies? Enemies and loot that scale to your level? Situations during adventures that you can only solve in ways the [strike]programmers[/strike] authors thought of and wrote into the module?
Jesus wept.
*Don't, actually, I don't care.
Not at all, well except maybe arguably the leveling scaling, but any veteran of RPGs has already seen that.
*Too bad, I just did. :D
Quote from: Morblot;1096174This is absolutely mind-boggling. The devs themselves said somewhere that the PBB being incompatible with the main game was a problem. And then they do this. I... I have no words.
Thank you for the info.
It's also a mindboggling choice in the context of WotC having demonstrated by making starter sets that are incompatible with the real rules as evidence that your design team is screwing the pooch.
Why learn from your own mistakes when you can learn from the mistakes of others?
Quote from: Premier;1096192"Item level."
Tell me*, does Starfinder also have randomised loot boxes that you can reroll for better results if you pay some real money? Or, perhaps, save points that remember your progress so you can reload if the party dies? Enemies and loot that scale to your level? Situations during adventures that you can only solve in ways the [strike]programmers[/strike] authors thought of and wrote into the module?
Jesus wept.
*Don't, actually, I don't care.
Of course it does, it is just the same as a computer game. Paizo gets money from players paying micro payments to get loot boxes, re-roll saves, re charging their powers and all their character abilities work in real time.
Quote from: Shasarak;1096202Of course it does, it is just the same as a computer game. Paizo gets money from players paying micro payments to get loot boxes, re-roll saves, re charging their powers and all their character abilities work in real time.
You mean like the Paizo T-Shirts you can buy to get a reroll (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p97p?Paizo-Shirt-Reroll)at Pathfinder Society events?
Quote from: jeff37923;1096207You mean like the Paizo T-Shirts you can buy to get a reroll (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p97p?Paizo-Shirt-Reroll)at Pathfinder Society events?
No I am talking about playing Starfinder. Dont you all buy loot boxes for your characters? I got a +5 Vorpal Ray Gun, it cost a few bucks but it was worth it.
Quote from: jeff37923;1096188Sadly, I have found this to be true.
What's sad is, though I played D&D a lot as a kid, my memories of Traveler and Star Frontier are just as strong. But none of my group plays any space based games, or has any intention of doing so. Despite us all being sci-fi fans who like things like The Expanse, Star Trek, and Firefly.
Quote from: Shasarak;1096211No I am talking about playing Starfinder. Dont you all buy loot boxes for your characters? I got a +5 Vorpal Ray Gun, it cost a few bucks but it was worth it.
I dunno, I play
Traveller. All we have to do to get a loot box is fund a Kickstarter.....
(I am so going to burn in Hell for that. :D )
Quote from: Mistwell;1096212What's sad is, though I played D&D a lot as a kid, my memories of Traveler and Star Frontier are just as strong. But none of my group plays any space based games, or has any intention of doing so. Despite us all being sci-fi fans who like things like The Expanse, Star Trek, and Firefly.
I still intend to travel out to California for a game, just as soon as Real Life calms down.....
Quote from: jeff37923;1096207You mean like the Paizo T-Shirts you can buy to get a reroll (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p97p?Paizo-Shirt-Reroll)at Pathfinder Society events?
Society is a strange beast. Obviously Paizo is going to be tempted to monetize some of that shit. No reason for it to affect home games though.
Quote from: jeff37923;1096207You mean like the Paizo T-Shirts you can buy to get a reroll (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p97p?Paizo-Shirt-Reroll)at Pathfinder Society events?
I didn't know about the shirt re-roll thing, but I enjoyed reading the thread. Funny how folks can discuss minutia in such detail. :)
Quote from: finarvyn;1096245I didn't know about the shirt re-roll thing, but I enjoyed reading the thread. Funny how folks can discuss minutia in such detail. :)
I actually encountered it in last week's Society session. One of the players bought a product to earn a re-roll. I rolled my eyes as I didn't know the Society had such rules.
I don't think it's particularly healthy for the game, but there you have it.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096256I actually encountered it in last week's Society session. One of the players bought a product to earn a re-roll. I rolled my eyes as I didn't know the Society had such rules.
I don't think it's particularly healthy for the game, but there you have it.
Good for the game in actual play? No. Good for Paizo because Organized Play fans will pay lots of money to gain an advantage? Yes.
Quote from: jeff37923;1096263Good for the game in actual play? No. Good for Paizo because Organized Play fans will pay lots of money to gain an advantage? Yes.
Good for short term profits, anyway, which is probably the idea.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096256I don't think it's particularly healthy for the game, but there you have it.
It could be, if a person is willing to be loose with the rules. I'd be willing to give a reroll to anyone wearing a D&D shirt, or a "Fair Game" shirt (my local game store), or something like that. Not just to support one specific game company or product line, but to support whatever favorite company or product is being played at the moment. It could be kind of fun, and one reroll isn't going to break the game or anything like that. :)
Quote from: finarvyn;1096266It could be, if a person is willing to be loose with the rules. I'd be willing to give a reroll to anyone wearing a D&D shirt, or a "Fair Game" shirt (my local game store), or something like that. Not just to support one specific game company or product line, but to support whatever favorite company or product is being played at the moment. It could be kind of fun, and one reroll isn't going to break the game or anything like that. :)
Society is not loose with the rules. I go because it's much easier than organizing a regular group. But obviously has it's drawbacks.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096256I actually encountered it in last week's Society session. One of the players bought a product to earn a re-roll. I rolled my eyes as I didn't know the Society had such rules.
I don't think it's particularly healthy for the game, but there you have it.
It seems grotesque to me, like getting more experience points for bringing the GM a Big Gulp.