Quote from: jeff37923;1096130Traveller 5.09 at 656 pages. In one book.

(With binding that doesn't have pages falling out, I might add.)

So was it 888 or 656?  One book or three?  1st edition or 9.067th edition?

Honestly its hard to keep track.

QuoteTraveller will feel mollified if people remember Starfinder in 42 years after its creation.

Thats a pretty low bar to clear.  Even the original little brown books have people remembering them after 42 years.

Quote from: Shasarak;1096132So was it 888 or 656?  One book or three?  1st edition or 9.067th edition?

Honestly its hard to keep track.

Not for Traveller fans......  

888 combined pages for the three books of Traveller 5.10 and 656 pages in the one book of Traveller 5.09.

Quote from: Shasarak;1096132a pretty low bar to clear.  Even the original little brown books have people remembering them after 42 years.

And how many games can claim that? How many of those are still played?

Quote from: Shasarak;1096093Have you seen the size of the Starfinder core book?  How big do you want that sucker to get to fit in all of your rules?

You joke, but there is more efficient ways to write rules. Especially the gear section. I don't need a list of 7 cryo rifles, I needed a way to calculate what a cryo rifle at each item level could do. The latter takes up less space and cover more ground.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1096138You joke, but there is more efficient ways to write rules. Especially the gear section. I don't need a list of 7 cryo rifles, I needed a way to calculate what a cryo rifle at each item level could do. The latter takes up less space and cover more ground.

I don't find the gear section that bad. You have maybe 3-6 lines per type of gun, and maybe 3-5 pages total for the gear stats.
What's interesting is reading the core Starfinder or Pathfinder books and trying to figure out what's taking up all the space! Each section isn't that big on it's own. I'm starting to suspect word bloat.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096147I don't find the gear section that bad. You have maybe 3-6 lines per type of gun, and maybe 3-5 pages total for the gear stats.
What's interesting is reading the core Starfinder or Pathfinder books and trying to figure out what's taking up all the space! Each section isn't that big on it's own. I'm starting to suspect word bloat.

What is bad is all the holes in the gear list, which I have heard is fixed with the armory book, but that is exactly my problem with the system.

But yes, 3.X Monte Cook era writing says little in lots of words. That's why Numenera is an 800+ page "rules light" game.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1096151What is bad is all the holes in the gear list, which I have heard is fixed with the armory book, but that is exactly my problem with the system.

I wouldn't call them holes. There are stretches between very specific weapon types, like (made up example) a sonic pistol at level 7 has it's next version at level 14. But there are plenty of pistol type weapons besides sonic, leaving only I think a 1 level gap between "upgrades". I'd have to check the tables to make sure.
I agree that it would be nice for a weapon system to generate weapons to cover all level ranges, but I didn't find it onerous without one.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096154I wouldn't call them holes. There are stretches between very specific weapon types, like (made up example) a sonic pistol at level 7 has it's next version at level 14. But there are plenty of pistol type weapons besides sonic, leaving only I think a 1 level gap between "upgrades". I'd have to check the tables to make sure.
I agree that it would be nice for a weapon system to generate weapons to cover all level ranges, but I didn't find it onerous without one.

Bah, with how fragmented the list is, many cool concepts you have for a character based off of gear are just non-viable through much of the level ranges. They had a bunch of neat ideas and then just failed to follow through. I'm still disappointed by the Mech section. There is what like 4 mechs and not all of them are even meant for combat. It's a large feat chain for a mechanic to be able to pilot one, but it'll only be useful for a couple of levels.

Overall I found Starfinder to be very onerous, especially compared to Stars Without Number, Savage Worlds, or even Numenera without offering any of the customization or mechanical depth that I expect a rule heavier game to offer.

Sure Starfinder is fine enough itself, but it's not by itself.

Quote from: JeremyR;1095878I think if anything, Starfinder is what will keep Paizo afloat.  I would not be surprised if it ends up being more popular than PF2

Then they're doomed because it sunk from the #2 most popular game to the #4 most popular in a single quarter and is likely to sink off the top 5 list by the end of the year.  Paizo is basically built based on being the #2, and if they are much below that I'd expect layoffs.

But realistically I think you're incorrect. PF2 should do fine. Starfinder will likely not see nearly as much support. Space games remain a more niche product than fantasy, for TRPGs.

Quote from: S'mon;1096129My understanding is that it is much less compatible than the PBB; two types of damage track are rolled into one, and skills are combined. The result IMO is a very nice clean game that is incompatible with the over-engineered guff they made for the 'real' game. So, like PBB vs PF only moreso.

If I run Starfinder I'll use the Beginner Box and E4 since it only goes to 4th level - after 4th level every advance gets you a Feat.

This is absolutely mind-boggling. The devs themselves said somewhere that the PBB being incompatible with the main game was a problem. And then they do this. I... I have no words.

Thank you for the info.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096147I don't find the gear section that bad. You have maybe 3-6 lines per type of gun, and maybe 3-5 pages total for the gear stats.
What's interesting is reading the core Starfinder or Pathfinder books and trying to figure out what's taking up all the space! Each section isn't that big on it's own. I'm starting to suspect word bloat.

Its the art.  If you take out the multi full page spreads of different guns and armour then you have lots of room for....more guns and armour.

Quote from: Mistwell;1096164Space games remain a more niche product than fantasy, for TRPGs.

Sadly, I have found this to be true.

"Item level."

Tell me*, does Starfinder also have randomised loot boxes that you can reroll for better results if you pay some real money? Or, perhaps, save points that remember your progress so you can reload if the party dies? Enemies and loot that scale to your level? Situations during adventures that you can only solve in ways the [strike]programmers[/strike] authors thought of and wrote into the module?

Jesus wept.



*Don't, actually, I don't care.

Quote from: Premier;1096192"Item level."

I had a similar reaction. But in play, it's no more different than having a +1 sword then a +2 sword, etc. These games all have the leveling treadmill. Starfinder accepts it, and I think it's a better system for it.

QuoteTell me*, does Starfinder also have randomised loot boxes that you can reroll for better results if you pay some real money? Or, perhaps, save points that remember your progress so you can reload if the party dies? Enemies and loot that scale to your level? Situations during adventures that you can only solve in ways the [strike]programmers[/strike] authors thought of and wrote into the module?

Jesus wept.



*Don't, actually, I don't care.

Not at all, well except maybe arguably the leveling scaling, but any veteran of RPGs has already seen that.

*Too bad, I just did.

Quote from: Morblot;1096174This is absolutely mind-boggling. The devs themselves said somewhere that the PBB being incompatible with the main game was a problem. And then they do this. I... I have no words.

Thank you for the info.

It's also a mindboggling choice in the context of WotC having demonstrated by making starter sets that are incompatible with the real rules as evidence that your design team is screwing the pooch.

Why learn from your own mistakes when you can learn from the mistakes of others?

Quote from: Premier;1096192"Item level."

Tell me*, does Starfinder also have randomised loot boxes that you can reroll for better results if you pay some real money? Or, perhaps, save points that remember your progress so you can reload if the party dies? Enemies and loot that scale to your level? Situations during adventures that you can only solve in ways the [strike]programmers[/strike] authors thought of and wrote into the module?

Jesus wept.



*Don't, actually, I don't care.

Of course it does, it is just the same as a computer game.  Paizo gets money from players paying micro payments to get loot boxes, re-roll saves, re charging their powers and all their character abilities work in real time.