Is Ravenloft relevant anymore?
I am working on a Halloween episode for my own RPG review show... and Ravenloft, at least classic Ravenloft, is rooted in Gothic literature and the old Universal horror flicks and the Hammer horror movies. These movies were aired on TV late Saturdays and early Sundays in the 1970s and the 1980s. But they are not aired on TV anymore and horror movies and literature have moved in different directions. I like movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Hellraiser and the Ring, but none of them possesses a style like that of the old Universal horror flicks and the Hammer horror movies. I cannot image an expy of the Hewitt Family (from TCM) or Pinhead or the girl crawling out of the well with their own Ravenloft domains. The kind of horror movies which defines the term for the modern generation are movies like Saw, Hostel and even (god help us) Human Centipede. Those flicks do not have a remotely Ravenloft tone or feel to them, but they (and crappy SyFy flicks) define horror expectations from a modern audience.
People who like classic Ravenloft (and Universal Horror and Hammer Horror) will be cool with the pace and tone of Ravenloft, but people accustomed to horror as defined by movies since 2000 will not think it qualifies as horror until someone is butt-raped by a running chainsaw. If it does not strike that note, then many will say it is not horror.
So, given this sea-change, is Ravenloft even relevant anymore as a horror setting? And I ask this as someone who liked the classic setting.
Classic iterations never get old, even if they fall out of fashion. All art form genres go through a certain life cycle of establishment > stasis > deconstruction > reconstruction. Classic Gothic horror still holds all the potency as it did, perhaps more so if the audience is new to it. It's really just waiting for the next big reconstruction of the genre to find its way back into favour.
I'd preface a game with directing new players to check out The Fearless Vampire Killers, Captain Chronos, Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow, maybe The Devil's Backbone.
I think Saw and Hostel were the short-lived fad... meanwhile fairytales and costume dramas continue to appeal to wide audiences. Kids I know are quite aware of old legends and mythology... which are the same things Universal and Hammer drew from.
Quite often the younger generation will re-discover the classics and some will find that they offer far more than the current gore films that are passed off as horror.
I don't think it ever was. Indeed I've always wondered why they gave Strahd the same skin colour as a certain muppet. Chill did Hammer horror a couple years earlier IRRC. But the Hollywood presentation of Dracula and Frankenstien mainly existed in media as comedy and parody by the time Ravenloft came along.
I mean, for TSR the original Ravenloft module was a sea change that lead to Dragonlance and more story oriented modules.
But relevant? Stoker's novel still has some relevance at any rate.
Quote from: David Johansen;703039I don't think it ever was. Indeed I've always wondered why they gave Strahd the same skin colour as a certain muppet. Chill did Hammer horror a couple years earlier IRRC. But the Hollywood presentation of Dracula and Frankenstien mainly existed in media as comedy and parody by the time Ravenloft came along.
I mean, for TSR the original Ravenloft module was a sea change that lead to Dragonlance and more story oriented modules.
But relevant? Stoker's novel still has some relevance at any rate.
Hammers Dracula series with Lee and Cushing may have been an inspiration too. Dynamic sometimes action oriented tales while still cleaving somewhat to the source. And the last of those came out in 73. Around the early or mid 80s they saw a resurgence in popularity too.
Hammer Horror movies (& Gothic novels) are set in a Christian universe where good is ultimately stronger than evil. Ravenloft is set in a Gnostic universe ruled by the Dark Powers, where evil is vastly stronger than good. In Hammer Horror characters are doomed by their personal flaws, or prevail through virtue, whereas in Ravenloft they can get stomped by superior evil force.
So, IMO Ravenloft does a poor job of emulating its apparent source material.
Quote from: S'mon;703104Hammer Horror movies (& Gothic novels) are set in a Christian universe where good is ultimately stronger than evil. Ravenloft is set in a Gnostic universe ruled by the Dark Powers, where evil is vastly stronger than good. In Hammer Horror characters are doomed by their personal flaws, or prevail through virtue, whereas in Ravenloft they can get stomped by superior evil force.
So, IMO Ravenloft does a poor job of emulating its apparent source material.
Genre doesn't necessarily equate with theme.
For me Ravenloft is relevant, but can't speak for others. I am only 37 and the classic horror movies, hammer and classic horror stories were part of my childhood. I think thats what drew me to Ravenloft. It's very much a vintage horror setting with more of a pg-rating than say stuff inspired by Clive Barker (and I love Clive Barker)---even hammer studios is pretty tame compared to the horror movies of the 80s, 90s, and 00s. Ravenloft was never really modern horror, it always felt more like the horror of vincent price, peter cushing or lon chaney. If you like that stuff, Ravenloft can be a great fit. Whether people are still consuming those things, I don't know. However I have noticed in the wake of Saw and films like it, we had movies like paranormal activity....so it feels like we go back to more classic styles with less gore from time to time. And while I haven't seen the shows, saw a bunch of advertisements for shows about Dracula, Witches and similar classic material this fall. So it seems people are still into those things.
For me the issue with Ravenloft was always that it tried to cram too many classic horror tropes into an over all setting while giving each their own little world. It always felt a bit forced in that regard.
I loved the original module for the way it turned what could have been a simple encounter "Vampire in its lair" into a rich mini campaign.
I think Ravenloft is still relevant, after all there are still plenty of games, movies, TV, miniatures etc in that style. Look at Grimm or American Horror Story, or even the Walking Dead. These could easily be Ravenloft stories in the modern day. Hansel and Gretel: Witchunters reminded me of some of the Ravenloft games we played back in the day.
Certainly the idea of being trapped in a nightmare realm you cannot escape from is as relevant today as it ever was. Although it may appeal less as it is closer to real life than escapist fantasy.
Quote from: Simlasa;703032I think Saw and Hostel were the short-lived fad... meanwhile fairytales and costume dramas continue to appeal to wide audiences. Kids I know are quite aware of old legends and mythology... which are the same things Universal and Hammer drew from.
Indeed. Saw was pushed out of the Halloween weekend by the Paranormal Activity franchise. But Sleepy Hollow, Dracula and Frankenstein keep coming back in new incarnations.
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703014People who like classic Ravenloft (and Universal Horror and Hammer Horror) will be cool with the pace and tone of Ravenloft, but people accustomed to horror as defined by movies since 2000 will not think it qualifies as horror until someone is butt-raped by a running chainsaw. If it does not strike that note, then many will say it is not horror.
So, given this sea-change, is Ravenloft even relevant anymore as a horror setting? And I ask this as someone who liked the classic setting.
I'm not sure we can reliably predict what The Kids These Days will or won't appreciate. Back in the early 80s when kids like me were discovering the old Hammer and AIP films on Movie Macabre and thinking they were awesome, I'm sure the conventional wisdom among studio execs was that the generation that grew up on slasher films would never go in for that hokey gothic stuff anymore.
Likewise, I wonder if George Lucas was ever warned that kids accustomed to 60s and early 70s era SciFi would never be interested in that silly Space Opera stuff from the 30s.:D
Quote from: Dimitrios;703189I'm not sure we can reliably predict what The Kids These Days will or won't appreciate. Back in the early 80s when kids like me were discovering the old Hammer and AIP films on Movie Macabre and thinking they were awesome, I'm sure the conventional wisdom among studio execs was that the generation that grew up on slasher films would never go in for that hokey gothic stuff anymore.
Likewise, I wonder if George Lucas was ever warned that kids accustomed to 60s and early 70s era SciFi would never be interested in that silly Space Opera stuff from the 30s.:D
Basically, yes.
Quote from: GrumpyReviewsPeople who like classic Ravenloft (and Universal Horror and Hammer Horror) will be cool with the pace and tone of Ravenloft, but people accustomed to horror as defined by movies since 2000 will not think it qualifies as horror until someone is butt-raped by a running chainsaw. If it does not strike that note, then many will say it is not horror.
Very interesting thread!
I've got two points to begin with:
1) Although I think you're right that Ravenloft is modeled on an older type of horror, I do think it's possible to "modernize" it to
some degree, if not in technology and time period than in sensibility. I think it'd be quite possible to run Barker-esque Ravenloft, for example, not only by emphasizing the gore but by putting a particularly gruesome spin on Darklords and other monsters and villains and by running adventures that stress body horror. I'm running a Ravenloft adventure right now involving rogue Intellect Devourers from Bluetspur invading Richemulot, taking over an asylum, and then performing disgusting experiments on the inmates.
2) 19th century Gothic novels are still reasonably well read (
Frankenstein and
Dracula are particularly well-known), so even if modern horror cinema has moved into different territory I don't think that "classic" Gothic horror has been utterly forgotten. You do occasionally see games and movies inspired more by the old stuff.
Amnesia: The Dark Descent, for example, struck me as being very Gothic in a classic 19th century sense, with just a touch of gruesome body horror.
I have this notion of reinventing Azalin as a Lovecraftian character, like Abdul Alhazred if he had become a king.
In any event, I feel Ravenloft will need some adjustment to remain a market force, something purchased by people other than hardcore existing fans. However, such things do not always go well.
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703014People who like classic Ravenloft (and Universal Horror and Hammer Horror) will be cool with the pace and tone of Ravenloft, but people accustomed to horror as defined by movies since 2000 will not think it qualifies as horror until someone is butt-raped by a running chainsaw. If it does not strike that note, then many will say it is not horror.
The horror genre allows for expansion, not just replacement. I don't think all horror movies now are gross either. For example, Ringu /The Ring or Paranormal Activity are mostly "gross free".
Most of the gross out horror movies you find today have a plot nugget that really don't require it to be gross either. They are gross because they are effects movies that have to top each other technically for lack of an original script or situation.
This reminds me about when the "revised" Exorcist was released in theaters several years ago - I had gotten a couple of early screening tickets and went to a packed pre-release. There were plenty of people in the audience who were late teens - 20s range, and the chatter around me gave me the impression that they weren't expecting anything particularly scary. The new material added wasn't particularly gross, but it was quite effective.
I think that, like all things, it depends on your audience and how they feel about the subject matter. Ravenloft is always going to be relevant to those who enjoy that genre and those who get introduced to it. As with any setting, some will love it and some will hate it.
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703014Is Ravenloft relevant anymore?
I cannot image an expy of the Hewitt Family (from TCM) or Pinhead or the girl crawling out of the well with their own Ravenloft domains.
So, given this sea-change, is Ravenloft even relevant anymore as a horror setting? And I ask this as someone who liked the classic setting.
Hmm.
First, I can easily see Samara (
The Ring) as a lord of Ravenloft, or as a
very nasty monster in a larger realm. A secluded, forgotten well and a cursed grimoire with a full page illustration she can come crawling out of is all you need. The PCs finding a water-logged corpse in a landlocked inn sounds like an adventure hook to me. The freaks from TCM aren't really gothic, but it wouldn't be that hard to recast them as a family of degenerate ghouls somewhere in the hills of a less cosmopolitan realm, and not everything in Ravenloft is "classic" gothic to begin with.
Second, I'd say Ravenloft has managed to remain relevant by virtue of the fact the style of horror it most strongly evokes hadn't been trendy in decades. Unlike something like Vampire 1st edition, Ravenloft didn't draw from what was popular at the time. Instead they designed it around those things which would either be called classic or cliche, depending on your tastes. That makes it comparatively resistant to current trends. The classics fall in and out of favor, but the drops and rises are smaller compared to the new hotness.
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703296In any event, I feel Ravenloft will need some adjustment to remain a market force, something purchased by people other than hardcore existing fans. However, such things do not always go well.
I am not sure it needs to be a market force, or that this is likely to be a major decision point right now. I do note that one advantage of releasing the old PDFs of TSR era games is that WotC now has some really kick-ass data on what old setting still have pull on players in the current eras.
One of the cool things about Ravenloft is that it's very landscape is a composite of other lands brought together by the Dark Powers, so bits and pieces can be added to it as desired. Even though as a whole Ravenloft is a very classic Gothic horror setting there are bits that draw on different horror subgenre and traditions. Bluetspur is Lovecraftian, the Amber Wastes have an Arabian/Egyptian horror thing going on, Dementlieu is very "Urban Gothic," Odiare has a Children of the Corn quality (and also a little Chucky), etc. So, in a sense, it'd be very easy to graft on new Domains that draw on more recent horror trends like J-Horror, splatterpunk, etc.
From a marketing and audience perspective, I doubt it's so much a case of Ravenloft being relevant as Fantasy being much more relevant.
In the 90s it made sense for to do a horror themed version of D&D. Mainstream fantasy was seen as somewhat lame and nerdy, while Horror themed stuff was cool.
Now it's almost the opposite. Traditional horror seems somewhat tacky and associated with twilight and halloween costumes while fantasy has very much become a mainstream thing.
Of course the reality is that either way there's not going to be a large new influx of gamers any time soon no matter what kinds of settings are used, so the point is largely moot anyway.
If it's done poorly, no. If it's done well, yes. If it's chasing a trend, definitely not.
Quote from: Steerpike;703317One of the cool things about Ravenloft is that it's very landscape is a composite of other lands brought together by the Dark Powers, so bits and pieces can be added to it as desired. Even though as a whole Ravenloft is a very classic Gothic horror setting there are bits that draw on different horror subgenre and traditions. Bluetspur is Lovecraftian, the Amber Wastes have an Arabian/Egyptian horror thing going on, Dementlieu is very "Urban Gothic," Odiare has a Children of the Corn quality (and also a little Chucky), etc. So, in a sense, it'd be very easy to graft on new Domains that draw on more recent horror trends like J-Horror, splatterpunk, etc.
Just a thought but it might be interesting to incorporate a time travel element too, where there are future domains and past domains.
I've not played a lot of Ravenloft, but it seems to me that the success of the original Dracula (book, play, movies) was rooted in the conflict between the modern (at the time) world of Victorian England -- the pinnacle of civilization and science at the time (or so assumed by the authors) -- and the elemental forces of evil from a time lost in history. The only person who knows how vampires behave and can be bested is a crusty old professor of ancient folklore. To the English and American protagonists he is an unknown force who has first to be believed before he can be bested.
I'm fascinated to see what the new TV show does with Dracula. I watched the premiere last week and while I liked some of it, I'm not altogether sold on it as a well thought out re-take. On the other hand, I am a big fan of the new Sleepy Hollow. Here's a show that is taking its demonology pretty seriously. It may not be canon, but it is enthusiastic, and that goes a long way in my book.
As to films like Saw (1 through 99), I have not watched them nor will I ever. I did make the mistake many years ago of watching a precursor of the slasher genre, Last House on the Left. I can't really classify them as horror stories (except that they are horrible) -- they're more like pornography.
The Ring was fun. I could see a decent horror scenario based on that -- but again, I see the conflict as being between cultural biases rather than all set in a domain where the water witch rules. The struggle is to find out what she is before she can be bested. If she's just the wicked queen then its a story about rebellion, more like Robin Hood than Jonathan Harker.
Quote from: teagan;703899As to films like Saw (1 through 99), I have not watched them nor will I ever. I did make the mistake many years ago of watching a precursor of the slasher genre, Last House on the Left. I can't really classify them as horror stories (except that they are horrible) -- they're more like pornography.
That's not true! Pornography can at least be pleasurable.
Having said that, I watched the first Saw movie and thought it was pretty good, in spite of the fact that slasher flicks (and gore generally) do absolutely nothing for me.
I'm completely biased when it comes to Ravenloft, as it has been one of my favourite settings since it was released. If it ends up being released by WotC under D&DNext I'll be very interested to see what they do with it. I think it can still be quite relevant, but one of the ways to do that is to leave it open to run all sorts of "horror" adventures, without pigeonholing it into pure Gothic, or Hammer-horror, or what-have-you...
I've seen all the Saw films. I'm not sure why, other than the DVDs were a buck.
The first was decent, if a little derivative. The second is about on par with 99% of the horror films Ive seen. Both were violent, but it didn't nauseate me like Hostel and other Torture Porn.
The rest of the Saws were drek. They abandoned the premise that made Jigsaw compelling in the first film altogether, and whoever did the last one had some very obvious "issues with women". None of the Saws were violent in that way that makes me sick to my stomach though, like Last House on the Left or Cannibal Holocaust.
I love horror, but I hate gore, and it frankly pisses me off to watch what is very obviously some director's rage at his exwife/GF/women who won't date him worked out onscreen in some violent revenge fantasy, which is surprisingly common in the genre, especially the "Indy" horror flicks. Just as I really have no interest in rape-revenge flicks, which became a genre unto thselves in the 70s and it seems like there's been at least one attempt a year to reboot that fad since the turn of the century.
Honestly, I miss 80s horror. It was generally fun, didn't take itself too seriously, and there wasn't a need to make the violence "realistic".
I don't mind gore, I even like it when it's done well... serves a purpose in the story... but gore itself just isn't scary. In fact it actively deflates any suspense that has been built up by what's gone before. It seems most effective when it comes out of nowhere, early on... setting up trepidation in the audience that there is worse on the way or establishing that 'this is what the monster does'.
I've never done it but in the past I've thought about starting off a horror game with a player-agent in cahoots to have his PC horribly killed off in the early sessions of the game. As a visual aide to the other players about their own PC's possible fates. I'm not sure what classification of Railroading that comes under.
I don't mind gore when it serves the story/mood. Heck, I saw Hellraiser at the age of 10 and I didn't bat an eye. It's when the director lingers on it, to the point of luridness & combines it with torture (usually of young women) then it just makes me feel sick. It's like Im acutely aware that somewhere, someone is getting off on this.
And no, it's not scary. It's boring. It's like sex scenes in films that go on too long (*cough*watchmen*cough*) I'm like "okay, can we please get back to the plot? That's what I'm here for. I appreciate you showing me new boobs , but lets move along".
Course, I also tend to zone out if car chases go on too long.
Anyways, to return to Ravenloft, its relevance is up to the GM. Genre isn't as important as getting the players invested in the experience. If they believe in the environment you create for them, then genre is meaningless. It's just a tool to help DM's coordinate the mood they want to create.
Are you kidding? Ironic Nostalgia is huge right now.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;704671Are you kidding? Ironic Nostalgia is huge right now.
RPGPundit
I have noticed this with a lot of people younger than me. For example may express interest in an old 80s band i like such as iron maiden or Dio, but their enjoyment of it is purely ironic (they sort of enjoy it at arms length because to them it is an amusing museum piece from the 80s). It took me a while to realize this. I imagine the same thing could happen with D&D or with certain sub genres and settings of rpgs (I could see people who dislike 1E or GURPS playing them mystery science theater style, and certainly people might approach Ravenloft the same way). There can also be the "i can't remember i used to think this was cool" factor.
Ahem, there are plenty of us twenty-somethings who enjoy Dio for his vocal prowess and not just some "ironic" adoration for the overall aesthetic of late 70s/early 80s metal.
As for the subject of horror, I think there are some slasher movie plots that would do really well in the context of an RPG. It all has to do with how the adventure is pitched, and frankly "Survival Horror" is way more interesting to me as a player and GM than a lot of the classic Hammer/Universal approach to character archetypes and ALSO ties in better with the whole idea of Gygaxian play better than those stories.
Survival Horror/Slasher films typically involve unskilled/"average" people either succumbing to or overcoming situations far beyond their ability and understanding, much like a lot of low to mid level games I've played. On the flipside, the Hammer/Universal interpretations of Gothic horror ("Dracula" in particular) typically place the protagonists in a position of Holy Justice sent to vanquish a diabolic evil.
Of course, those movies and stories are great, but to me as a player and GM, the premise seems a bit stilted compared to something considerably more conducive to Appendix N style play. So to merely throw out slasher films based on the gore factor, is a pretty baby/bathwater situation.
Okay, I'll be honest here:
All this has happened before, all will happen again.
These trends come and go, but the really good stuff sticks around. Back when the last big Gothic Horror wave hit with The Crow and Interview with the Vampire and (hold your nose, thou whining blaggard) Vampire The Masquerade, there were about a billion lesser imitators and hangers on.
But that trend started because a tiny group of creators and hardcore fans kept the style going, reinventing it, questioning, regurgitating it and yeah, for the most part sucking donkey balls. But every once in a while something special comes out of that.
For example, when the Walking Dead comic launched, there was no big Zombie trend. It was just a couple guys who really loved zombie movies and kept the ball rolling. Now Kirkman is the next Stan Lee, minus the absurd profligacy.
So here's the thing: If you want to chase around trends, you'll always be sub par and uninteresting. But if you really love Ravenloft, and see a chance to reinvent Hammer Horror (which reinvented Universal Horror (which reinvented Horror plays (which reinvented Penny Dreadfuls))) then you fucking do it, do it well, and maybe you'll get lucky and it'll be what some producer somewhere is looking for.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/map_ravenloft1TH.jpg
Happy All Saints Day!
Quote from: JonWake;704700All this has happened before, all will happen again...
Hrmm... Cylons in Ravenloft.
Quote from: Snake_Eyes;704708http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/map_ravenloft1TH.jpg
Happy All Saints Day!
That kicks ass
Quote from: GrumpyReviews;703014Is Ravenloft relevant anymore?
It is if you want to play it, or run it, or write for it.
That's the only standard of relevance worth having nowadays. IMHO, YMMV, etc.
That image looks cool but at that size I can't read any of it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;705248That image looks cool but at that size I can't read any of it.
You will have to download it from the WotC site to get the full sized image.
Quote from: RPGPundit;705248That image looks cool but at that size I can't read any of it.
Just click it with your mouse!!
Quote from: Snake_Eyes;705317Just click it with your mouse!!
It still comes out too small.
That's 'cause the thumbnail was linked, not the main one.
Here's the main one.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/map_ravenloft1.jpg
If that map is accurate it would be very useful for the gm. It has been years since I ran the old module, but that map looks...amazing.
Quote from: JRT;705776That's 'cause the thumbnail was linked, not the main one.
Here's the main one.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/map_ravenloft1.jpg
Oh yes. Much better!