prowlers and paragons

 That makes sense...that system seems more comparable to Savage Worlds on options and complexity so not so surprising new people could whip up a character solo and being new.   I thought you were saying they made GURPS or Hero system characters on their own in short order. 

Quote from: oggsmash on December 25, 2023, 12:33:19 PM
That makes sense...that system seems more comparable to Savage Worlds on options and complexity so not so surprising new people could whip up a character solo and being new.   I thought you were saying they made GURPS or Hero system characters on their own in short order.

LOL, you'd have a better chance of writing a master's thesis in the same amount of time

Quote from: oggsmash on December 25, 2023, 12:33:19 PM
That makes sense...that system seems more comparable to Savage Worlds on options and complexity so not so surprising new people could whip up a character solo and being new.   I thought you were saying they made GURPS or Hero system characters on their own in short order.

Eh, 4th Edition HERO wasn't awful. I was mid-teens when I was first introduced to it as an alternative to Palladium's Heroes Unlimited. I honestly had a harder time playing out the combats (the phases + calculating OCV-DCV + counting dice for both stun and kills, etc.) than I ever did with building a PC using it.

I mean, it wasn't as easy as Mutants & Masterminds, but it wasn't so awful that a teenager with a desire to create their own superhero couldn't muscle through it.

Quote from: jhkim on December 19, 2023, 03:20:55 AM
But point-buy doesn't have higher attributes than rolling.

Not in theory, but in practice, yes. We saw this many times in my GURPS days, and to this day you can go on their forums and see people saying that a 25 or 50 point character is "basically unplayable". Try this: "okay guys, the average of 3d6 is 10.5, so we'll give you 10.5 points for each stat, there are six, that's 63 points. Spend as you wish, minimum 3, maximum 18." You're going to hear the good old, "but that's not enough points for my character concept" straight away. Let alone giving them less than average dice results.

Whereas if they roll and get equivalent results, most players tend to just go with it and make the best of it, like I did with the charismatic fighter - and yeah, attributes do matter, but you still have to play the character intelligently, making use of their individual strengths and avoiding their weaknesses becoming a vulnerability.

Quote from: Captain_PazuzuIsn't it a question of preference to some extent?

Of course. But there's a reason we don't have an entirely blank page for the rules systems: certain rules encourage or discourage certain kinds of play. They don't determine it, but they do influence it. Obviously if you have rules for X but not Y, you'll usually get more X than Y in the campaign, overall. But it starts with character generation. Are there classes? Skills? Attributes? Are some random, some chosen, and which?

As well, players' tastes aren't fixed for roleplaying games as for any other media. Not many of us watch only action movies, or only romantic comedies, or whatever. We have our favourites, of course, but most of us have had the experience of someone sitting us down to watch something we wouldn't have chosen on our own - and we end up enjoying it. This happens at least as often as choosing a movie in our favourite genre and hating it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 18, 2023, 11:58:46 AM
This kind of problem stems not from a point buy system but rather from player desires not aligning to the power level of the campaign. If a player is told to create a 150 point character, but the super duper character they have envisioned requires 275 points to build then the player has to adjust the desired concept to something 150 points will buy. Some players always want more than the campaign starting level gives their characters regardless of creation method. In point buy they never have enough points. In random generation the rolled stats are not high enough for the character that they envision. NO creation method will help with that.

So very very true. You just have to tell the player they will have to grow into that power like everyone else. If they throw a tantrum then thats likely s good sign they are not going to be good at that table (or likely most any table)

Quote from: Venka on December 18, 2023, 12:27:29 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on December 17, 2023, 10:03:59 PM

QuoteThere's almost no reason for that to have been in the book, the one merit is that it prevents the strongest woman from being as strong as the strongest man, a piece of realism that all later versions have left out.

Ah, you're one of those guys. Realism in a game about... dungeons and... dragons. Rightyo. Start shaving your neck, mate, and please discard the fedora.

Heres the real kicker with this argument.

The limit is only for STR and only effects Fighters, Rangers and Paladins as those are the only classes that made use of exceptional STR and the limit was not all that big. Women capped at 18/50 I believe.

So its one side bitching about nothing and the other side defending nothing.

I've genuinely never had a player bitch about not having enough points or whatever. Are you guys playing with children or something?

Quote from: Domina on December 25, 2023, 10:26:06 PM
I've genuinely never had a player bitch about not having enough points or whatever. Are you guys playing with children or something?

Same. I've had players bitch about "Rule of X/Power Level" caps, but never actual point totals.*

Similarly, Most attribute points buys that replace random rolls tend to deliver the same results as a standard array; which itself is a mathematical distribution based on the dice. 5e's array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is basically that for 4d6 drop the lowest (technically the 15 should be a 16, but hey, perks of rolling). 5e Point Buy can duplicate the array if you allocate its points the same way (and includes a cap of 15... a base stat of 16+ is only possible by rolling in 5e).

The only real advantage of point buy over arrays is if the system includes elements that leverage having more or fewer even or odd numbers (ex. Basic 5e humans benefit from having all odd ability scores since their racial bonus is +1 to each ability).

The main advantage of array/point buy in my experience is that my dice (who hate me) can't screw me over for an entire campaign like they so often do.

* This is largely because most of the systems used have significant cost saving bit for multiples of similar things that can't be used at the same time (i.e. arrays/alternate powers) and limiters to shave points off something in exchange (ex. I had a superstrength character in one campaign who pulled off an extremely high lifting capacity at relatively low power levels by buying up the levels past the PL limit for combat with "only for lifting" and "requires concentration"; in combat he could throw a truck, outside of combat he could bench press a building... or temporarily stand it for one of its supports... if he gave up the ability to defend himself).

Quote from: Domina on December 25, 2023, 10:26:06 PM
I've genuinely never had a player bitch about not having enough points or whatever. Are you guys playing with children or something?

I've had players jealous over what other characters would have as attributes. So yeah, they exist.

People wasting time on jealousy aren't putting their energy into making a cool character. If they had, the character would actually stand out as something special.

Falsely inflated attributes do not make up for being cookie-cutter or just plain unimaginative.

Often times when a Player at one of my tables is trying to create a character type, they are looking for a particular play experience.  With that in mind, I often will talk to the player to try and ferret out what he really wants.  90% of the time, I can help guide the player to creating a PC that fits the play experience even if it's not how he envisioned the PC.  The other 10% of the time, I have to steer the player to another game.  Players that want to be the badass loner edge lord really need to go play skirmish games for a while and get it out of their system.  (I've had a few that come to realize that's what they really wanted to play and never come back to RPGs.  Still friends and still nerds.)

Quote from: Domina on December 25, 2023, 10:26:06 PM
I've genuinely never had a player bitch about not having enough points or whatever. Are you guys playing with children or something?

It's not unreasonable for a new player to want to play a character as powerful as Conan or Aragorn, or Kratos from God of War. Their expectations are set by other media, which often work very differently.

They have to learn how RPGs work, and in particular, how the character growth mechanics work.

They also have to learn that there is way more to the game than dice mechanics.

Quote from: Lurkndog on December 26, 2023, 12:03:48 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 25, 2023, 10:26:06 PM
I've genuinely never had a player bitch about not having enough points or whatever. Are you guys playing with children or something?

It's not unreasonable for a new player to want to play a character as powerful as Conan or Aragorn, or Kratos from God of War. Their expectations are set by other media, which often work very differently.

Why is it required to introduce new players to roleplaying via a system or setting where they can't be a Conan or Aragorn or Kratos (with challenges appropriate to their status)?

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 26, 2023, 01:10:30 PM

Quote from: Lurkndog on December 26, 2023, 12:03:48 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 25, 2023, 10:26:06 PM
I've genuinely never had a player bitch about not having enough points or whatever. Are you guys playing with children or something?

It's not unreasonable for a new player to want to play a character as powerful as Conan or Aragorn, or Kratos from God of War. Their expectations are set by other media, which often work very differently.

Why is it required to introduce new players to roleplaying via a system or setting where they can't be a Conan or Aragorn or Kratos (with challenges appropriate to their status)?

  I think one problem with that being an introduction is (at least in most of the games I play) a character that experienced will have several abilities and skills that when utilized well make that character a super bad ass.   A very inexperienced player can make a mess of that lots of times.  On the other hand I do think games like SW (if char is started at say seasoned level) GURPS and HERO allow a character to start at a level that is immediately competent at the areas they want to excel in.  Adult King Conan level?  Not on 150 pts, but certainly 17 year old Conan.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 25, 2023, 03:48:38 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on December 25, 2023, 12:33:19 PM
That makes sense...that system seems more comparable to Savage Worlds on options and complexity so not so surprising new people could whip up a character solo and being new.   I thought you were saying they made GURPS or Hero system characters on their own in short order.

Eh, 4th Edition HERO wasn't awful. I was mid-teens when I was first introduced to it as an alternative to Palladium's Heroes Unlimited. I honestly had a harder time playing out the combats (the phases + calculating OCV-DCV + counting dice for both stun and kills, etc.) than I ever did with building a PC using it.

I mean, it wasn't as easy as Mutants & Masterminds, but it wasn't so awful that a teenager with a desire to create their own superhero couldn't muscle through it.

  My experience with Hero starts at 5th edition.  It seems to me (this is my own perspective and bias) Hero is easier to create a character in than GURPS (assuming 5th or 6th edition of Hero) but the game itself is more complicated to me than GURPS in actual play.   I suspect if I played it for lots of sessions that might change.  I also think the background for Hero (assumes most people want to get it for supers) motivates the players.  My son was able to figure out making a character in a few hours (he had played GURPS, but I do not think he ever even made a character in GURPS) and largely because his attention and motivation were driven by his desire to make a cool super hero.