Ascendant does templates that make creation relatively simple, but they're closer to pregens built around a theme that you can tweak a bit than actual classes or the like. Not as bad as GURPS, but wouldn't call it nearly as fast or intuitive for creation as it is in play.

Anyway, some point buys have that, I guess, but I doubt it's common or extensive for most systems. Assuming the point buy is super varied in potential builds.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 08:18:09 PM
Ascendant does templates that make creation relatively simple, but they're closer to pregens built around a theme that you can tweak a bit than actual classes or the like. Not as bad as GURPS, but wouldn't call it nearly as fast or intuitive for creation as it is in play.

Anyway, some point buys have that, I guess, but I doubt it's common or extensive for most systems. Assuming the point buy is super varied in potential builds.

GURPS does have racial / class templates. they are useful but from a newbie point of view GURPS isn't always best at relaying how it got to the point values it got to, aka not showing it's work.

I notice this sometimes in point buy systems.

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:27:44 PM

Says the guy insisting that you can't build the character you want with point buy (despite ALL objective, verifiable evidence to the contrary), because you can't get your dream character out of the gate without putting any work into it. And that this is a failure of the idea of point buy itself, and not your ABSURDLY unrealistic expectations.

No, I ran into this with a character concept that the game's designer thought was both really cool and appropriate, and I had already played a number of games using one of his pre-generated characters, so I had no unrealistic expectations about the power level. Even with his help, we couldn't get the concept to work with the points he had laid out. It's an inherent problem with point buy.

It simply doesn't do what it's supposed to. Given that's the case, you're much better off using some kind of life path system where you discover your character through generation, and then you're simply not expecting to start with a particular template.

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 06:27:56 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:27:44 PM

Says the guy insisting that you can't build the character you want with point buy (despite ALL objective, verifiable evidence to the contrary), because you can't get your dream character out of the gate without putting any work into it. And that this is a failure of the idea of point buy itself, and not your ABSURDLY unrealistic expectations.

No, I ran into this with a character concept that the game's designer thought was both really cool and appropriate, and I had already played a number of games using one of his pre-generated characters, so I had no unrealistic expectations about the power level. Even with his help, we couldn't get the concept to work with the points he had laid out. It's an inherent problem with point buy.

It simply doesn't do what it's supposed to. Given that's the case, you're much better off using some kind of life path system where you discover your character through generation, and then you're simply not expecting to start with a particular template.

Details or I refuse to believe you. I have tried myriad point buy systems and have never experienced anything like this (which you then extend to ALL point buy systems as a blanket statement of truth I might add).

So at least give us the system and the concept you failed to achieve so we can actually judge for ourselves.

Your statement is too extreme on its face to be just taken as gospel truth.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 22, 2023, 07:48:18 AM

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 06:27:56 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:27:44 PM

Says the guy insisting that you can't build the character you want with point buy (despite ALL objective, verifiable evidence to the contrary), because you can't get your dream character out of the gate without putting any work into it. And that this is a failure of the idea of point buy itself, and not your ABSURDLY unrealistic expectations.

No, I ran into this with a character concept that the game's designer thought was both really cool and appropriate, and I had already played a number of games using one of his pre-generated characters, so I had no unrealistic expectations about the power level. Even with his help, we couldn't get the concept to work with the points he had laid out. It's an inherent problem with point buy.

It simply doesn't do what it's supposed to. Given that's the case, you're much better off using some kind of life path system where you discover your character through generation, and then you're simply not expecting to start with a particular template.

Details or I refuse to believe you. I have tried myriad point buy systems and have never experienced anything like this (which you then extend to ALL point buy systems as a blanket statement of truth I might add).

So at least give us the system and the concept you failed to achieve so we can actually judge for ourselves.

Your statement is too extreme on its face to be just taken as gospel truth.

Sweet Dreams by Allan Dotson. I had tried making a character who was the tooth fairy who collects teeth, and because she's in high school she has to get them by starting fights. That's not some crazy powerful concept for the system or premise, nor is it a concept that's out of place. It failed specifically because of the point buy system which wasn't noticeably different from what you'd see in GURPS or BESM.

It's not extreme at all. Point buy, like GURPS, is just fundamentally flawed. You can have fun with it, sure, but it doesn't let you do what it leads you to believe it can do. Various systems made some effort to compensate. For instance BESM had genre based skill costs, but the most common post you'd see on the GoO forums was asking for help to create a particular character concept. JAGS allocates a certain amount of points to skills, attributes and special abilities, so you can't distribute the points however you want, but it still has the same fundamental flaws. In GURPS if you want to play a character who is ageless, which is largely meaningless fluff background and doesn't imbalance the game at all, you end up paying a ton of points for it.

The point buy is simply a budget you have to work in, it's a mini game. It doesn't create balanced characters and it doesn't let you realize any character concept you want.

HeroQuest 2e, lets you create any character concept you want as long as you can summarize it in 100 words. And it doesn't suffer balance problems as a result. Why waste time with point buy when you can use something that's much better?

Sounds more like a "chose a crappy game engine" and "I am incapable of RP without perfect mechanical support" than an "all point buy is bad" problem.

Also, again, we need a term here to distinguish things just because "point buy" can mean both "build the entire PC with points" and "determine your six starting attributes before picking race/class" depending on who's doing the talking.

You're complaining more about the former. Others are comparing the latter form of point buy to random stat generation and finding it a superior option to random rolls creating a random character.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 22, 2023, 11:08:08 AM
Sounds more like a "chose a crappy game engine" and "I am incapable of RP without perfect mechanical support" than an "all point buy is bad" problem.

Also, again, we need a term here to distinguish things just because "point buy" can mean both "build the entire PC with points" and "determine your six starting attributes before picking race/class" depending on who's doing the talking.

You're complaining more about the former. Others are comparing the latter form of point buy to random stat generation and finding it a superior option to random rolls creating a random character.

Point buy is a crappy game engine. All it does is add complexity for its own sake.

There are so many systems to choose from, there's no reason to stick to one that fails at its ostensible objective. Of course you can houserule every piece of crap out. But you save yourself a lot of grief by simply not using point buy.

Simply assigning points to stats is stat allocation, not point buy. Point buy is a system like GURPS.

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 12:37:44 PM
Simply assigning points to stats is stat allocation, not point buy. Point buy is a system like GURPS.

In prior discussion around D&D, other posters have consistently been referring to buying stats with points as "point buy" -- especially since that is the name used in the rules. You might disagree, but you should at least be aware of how other posters are using the term.

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 06:27:56 AM
No, I ran into this with a character concept that the game's designer thought was both really cool and appropriate, and I had already played a number of games using one of his pre-generated characters, so I had no unrealistic expectations about the power level. Even with his help, we couldn't get the concept to work with the points he had laid out. It's an inherent problem with point buy.

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 09:38:35 AM
Sweet Dreams by Allan Dotson. I had tried making a character who was the tooth fairy who collects teeth, and because she's in high school she has to get them by starting fights. That's not some crazy powerful concept for the system or premise, nor is it a concept that's out of place. It failed specifically because of the point buy system which wasn't noticeably different from what you'd see in GURPS or BESM.

It's not extreme at all. Point buy, like GURPS, is just fundamentally flawed. You can have fun with it, sure, but it doesn't let you do what it leads you to believe it can do.

In general, I agree that there are reasonable character concepts that will be priced out-of-whack in GURPS or HERO, but I also think "you can have fun with it" is a sufficiently good reason to play something - and there's a huge variety of characters that can be handled, and even more if the GM is willing to be flexible with the rules for the player. I've had HERO system characters ranging from a Klingon warship shrunk to the size of a dinner plate, to an intergalactic teleporter, to a Timelord.

I've heard of Sweet Dreams, but I don't know the rules. Can you explain why your tooth fairy character couldn't be bought?

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2023, 02:14:00 PM

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 12:37:44 PM
Simply assigning points to stats is stat allocation, not point buy. Point buy is a system like GURPS.

In prior discussion around D&D, other posters have consistently been referring to buying stats with points as "point buy" -- especially since that is the name used in the rules. You might disagree, but you should at least be aware of how other posters are using the term.

That's fair, but given how long GURPS and HERO have been on the market, they ought to know that those are point buy systems.

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 06:27:56 AM
No, I ran into this with a character concept that the game's designer thought was both really cool and appropriate, and I had already played a number of games using one of his pre-generated characters, so I had no unrealistic expectations about the power level. Even with his help, we couldn't get the concept to work with the points he had laid out. It's an inherent problem with point buy.

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 09:38:35 AM
Sweet Dreams by Allan Dotson. I had tried making a character who was the tooth fairy who collects teeth, and because she's in high school she has to get them by starting fights. That's not some crazy powerful concept for the system or premise, nor is it a concept that's out of place. It failed specifically because of the point buy system which wasn't noticeably different from what you'd see in GURPS or BESM.

It's not extreme at all. Point buy, like GURPS, is just fundamentally flawed. You can have fun with it, sure, but it doesn't let you do what it leads you to believe it can do.

In general, I agree that there are reasonable character concepts that will be priced out-of-whack in GURPS or HERO, but I also think "you can have fun with it" is a sufficiently good reason to play something - and there's a huge variety of characters that can be handled, and even more if the GM is willing to be flexible with the rules for the player. I've had HERO system characters ranging from a Klingon warship shrunk to the size of a dinner plate, to an intergalactic teleporter, to a Timelord.

I've heard of Sweet Dreams, but I don't know the rules. Can you explain why your tooth fairy character couldn't be bought?
[/quote]

Mechanically it was more or less like GURPS. Had a few other elements, but was a normal RPG for the time period. There were a few special abilities I needed for the concept, one with supernaturally induced sleep, and the ability that resembled it most closely was quite expensive and just put the concept out of the budget. It had some additional capabilities that weren't needed for the concept, that somewhat justified the cost that had been selected. The problem you have there is either have a package of abilities and streamline character generation if you don't have a concept in mind, or you break each part down to its own thing, and it makes the process long and involved, and sometimes so arcane that you can't figure out how to arrive at the destination (BESM's problem).

Out of whack pricing is a problem with a particular game's design, not with point buy as a design approach.

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 05:38:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2023, 02:14:00 PM
In general, I agree that there are reasonable character concepts that will be priced out-of-whack in GURPS or HERO, but I also think "you can have fun with it" is a sufficiently good reason to play something - and there's a huge variety of characters that can be handled, and even more if the GM is willing to be flexible with the rules for the player. I've had HERO system characters ranging from a Klingon warship shrunk to the size of a dinner plate, to an intergalactic teleporter, to a Timelord.

I've heard of Sweet Dreams, but I don't know the rules. Can you explain why your tooth fairy character couldn't be bought?

Mechanically it was more or less like GURPS. Had a few other elements, but was a normal RPG for the time period. There were a few special abilities I needed for the concept, one with supernaturally induced sleep, and the ability that resembled it most closely was quite expensive and just put the concept out of the budget. It had some additional capabilities that weren't needed for the concept, that somewhat justified the cost that had been selected. The problem you have there is either have a package of abilities and streamline character generation if you don't have a concept in mind, or you break each part down to its own thing, and it makes the process long and involved, and sometimes so arcane that you can't figure out how to arrive at the destination (BESM's problem).

So as I understand it, there was a package of stuff together that you only wanted a part of, and paying for the whole thing made your character too expensive. It sounds like a pretty easy GM ruling to let you have part of the power for part of the price.

I am not sure how "could not build sensible concept for a starting character in point buy" is an inherent failure of point buy anymore than "desired concept did not exist as a single class in a level and class system for a level 1 character to take" is a condemnation of the latter.

"Can build anything" maybe a false promise of point buy, but it is demonstrably more customizable than class & level.

It can be used to build ineffective characters, as can multicalssing in class & level or poor RNG in random generation. Protecting a player from the consequence of poor decisions is not a feature of games built around decision making, and trap options are a design problem than can occur in any system with meaningful choice.

The Fantasy trip is one of my only RPGs I play, even though I don't financially support it any more.  It is deadly, but the point-buy system makes character creation extremely quick.  I also like the simplicity and elegance of such a system.

Quote from: migo on December 22, 2023, 06:27:56 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:27:44 PM

Says the guy insisting that you can't build the character you want with point buy (despite ALL objective, verifiable evidence to the contrary), because you can't get your dream character out of the gate without putting any work into it. And that this is a failure of the idea of point buy itself, and not your ABSURDLY unrealistic expectations.

No, I ran into this with a character concept that the game's designer thought was both really cool and appropriate, and I had already played a number of games using one of his pre-generated characters, so I had no unrealistic expectations about the power level. Even with his help, we couldn't get the concept to work with the points he had laid out. It's an inherent problem with point buy.

It simply doesn't do what it's supposed to. Given that's the case, you're much better off using some kind of life path system where you discover your character through generation, and then you're simply not expecting to start with a particular template.

I didn't mention "power levels", that's immaterial to this. You're insisting, over and over again, that if you don't get 100% the EXACT character you envisioned right out of character creation that's somehow a failure of point buy as a design concept. IN GENERAL.

And you're basing this view on your experience with ONE game, making ONE character. That you later admitted--after multiple probes from different posters--had one powerful ability that warranted the cost that set the character outside the starting point budget. Meaning that this ENTIRE exchange had been bullshit to begin with, cuz your character really would've been too powerful. It's just that you didn't want that precise ability, but it was the closest one to fit your concept.

ALL of these are absurd, unrealistic expectations regardless of how powerful the character might turn out to be.

The idea that a game system has to achieve such a level of perfection that you can craft the EXACT character you want without fail is unrealistic.

The idea that the system has provide you with the ENTIRE laundry list of abilities for your concept since character creation, rather than having to wait to pick some of them later once you earn more points is unrealistic.

The idea that if ONE game fails to accomplish all this unrealistic stuff for even ONE character means that ALL games that use a similar design concept are also a failure is unrealistic.

The idea that if ONE game that uses a certain design concept fails to meet your unrealistic expectations due to a specific and EASILY changeable set of parameters (starting points) that applies only to that game when played with that GM means that the design concept needs to be scrapped not just for that game with that GM, but across the board in general is unrealistic.

This ENTIRE exchange is ABSURD.

GM: We're going to be running street-level heroes in Mutants & Masterminds, so it's power level 8 and 120 points.

Migo: I can't build Superman with 120 points.

GM: I said we're doing street-level heroes.

Migo: Superman stops street-level crimes. Point buy is stupid. It doesn't allow you to build something even though the concept totally fits the setting.