It is neither good nor bad, it is a tool. Whether it is good or bad depends on how it is used.

Quote from: pawsplay on December 23, 2023, 06:11:33 PM
It is neither good nor bad, it is a tool. Whether it is good or bad depends on how it is used.

For sure. Though I would also probably argue it tends to have certain advantages and prospective drawbacks/disadvantages as part of the template. So in certain instances it may be more or less appropriate to the situation at hand.

Quote from: migo on December 23, 2023, 05:03:46 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 23, 2023, 12:26:53 PM

Then it was a shit system.

Well yes, it was point buy. That's the point I've been making from the start.

Quote
Describe your character's abilities and I'll create it.

You're a special kind of arrogant to think you could accomplish something in a system you have no familiarity with that the system's designer couldn't.

Where did I say I would be using your system? I already said it was shit, obviously I wouldn't use its rules.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 23, 2023, 08:24:43 AM
Migo: Superman stops street-level crimes. Point buy is stupid. It doesn't allow you to build something even though the concept totally fits the setting.

I can't tell you how often I've had some player say, "I don't have enough points for my character concept." Random roll helps deal with these egotistical unimaginative players. At first it humbles them so they have a chance of learning to play properly, and the worst of them simply move on.

Quote from: Domina on December 23, 2023, 07:31:49 PM

Quote from: migo on December 23, 2023, 05:03:46 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 23, 2023, 12:26:53 PM

Then it was a shit system.

Well yes, it was point buy. That's the point I've been making from the start.

Quote
Describe your character's abilities and I'll create it.

You're a special kind of arrogant to think you could accomplish something in a system you have no familiarity with that the system's designer couldn't.

Where did I say I would be using your system? I already said it was shit, obviously I wouldn't use its rules.

You don't understand.

They don't WANT a solution.

They want to be a whiny snowflake who gets sympathy for having their feefees hurt and if you call them out for being a thin-skinned self-entitled drama queen who got mad because the game wouldn't give them everything they wanted right from level one without any effort and this experience is enough to label an entire broad concept of character creation as objectively awful.

If they wanted solutions they wouldn't be using a game from some obscure guy known mostly for self-published storygames (and even finding that much took a little digging) as their example for why point buy mechanics suck.

There you go. Low level Supes. Took me about seven minutes.

Players not having enough points for their concept is not a problem that's inherent in points buy systems.  I don't think it's a system problem at all.  It's more a problem with players who don't understand or ignore the power level of the game and what sort of character you can actually make with the points available.  The GM needs to be clear about this from the start.  I am running a PL 8 game using Mutants and Masterminds 3e.  Characters will be young mutants who are new to their powers.  PL 8 is entry level superheroes.  Your character will probably be able to afford only one significant power.  Make concepts accordingly.  Your character might not be able to do everything you want them to do right away.  They probably won't.  If people come to the table with a concept that involves being an actual god, that's not a problem with the system.     

Quote from: Domina on December 24, 2023, 12:17:24 AM
There you go. Low level Supes. Took me about seven minutes.

Doesn't have Invulnerability, Super Hearing or X-Ray Vision.

Point Buy is objectively shit and needs to die in a dumpster fire. I would rather be eternally constrained by random rolls and character classes than get a single option if I can't get 100% EXACTLY what I want--with ZERO qualifications--out of that option. And don't tell me I need to play a bit to get there!

How am I ever going to recover from this unbearable disappointment?

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 24, 2023, 07:13:02 AM

Quote from: Domina on December 24, 2023, 12:17:24 AM
There you go. Low level Supes. Took me about seven minutes.

Doesn't have Invulnerability, Super Hearing or X-Ray Vision.

Point Buy is objectively shit and needs to die in a dumpster fire. I would rather be eternally constrained by random rolls and character classes than get a single option if I can't get 100% EXACTLY what I want--with ZERO qualifications--out of that option. And don't tell me I need to play a bit to get there!

How am I ever going to recover from this unbearable disappointment?

Personally, if limited to PL8 I'd have aimed for Golden Age Supes before he had all that other stuff and was just a stronger (locomotives of the era had a pull strength of about 430kN/so lift of c. 48-50 tons; able to leap an eighth of a mile; 660'), faster (speeding bullets were later; 100-200mph), more resilient (nothing less than a bursting shell is pretty easy at PL8) and with sharper (but still limited to the normal five) senses.

Then in play I could spend gained points on unlocking other powers, add flight as an alternate power for jumping, add x-ray vision to super senses (then make heat vision an alternate power of x-ray vision just like in the comics).

Slowly increase the values of Strength and Toughness, add Kryptonite as a complication (first it only removes my powers per K-Metal from Krypton, scale it up with time) for extra Hero Points.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 24, 2023, 08:28:16 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 24, 2023, 07:13:02 AM

Quote from: Domina on December 24, 2023, 12:17:24 AM
There you go. Low level Supes. Took me about seven minutes.

*snip*

Doesn't have Invulnerability, Super Hearing or X-Ray Vision.

Point Buy is objectively shit and needs to die in a dumpster fire. I would rather be eternally constrained by random rolls and character classes than get a single option if I can't get 100% EXACTLY what I want--with ZERO qualifications--out of that option. And don't tell me I need to play a bit to get there!

How am I ever going to recover from this unbearable disappointment?

Personally, if limited to PL8 I'd have aimed for Golden Age Supes before he had all that other stuff and was just a stronger (locomotives of the era had a pull strength of about 430kN/so lift of c. 48-50 tons; able to leap an eighth of a mile; 660'), faster (speeding bullets were later; 100-200mph), more resilient (nothing less than a bursting shell is pretty easy at PL8) and with sharper (but still limited to the normal five) senses.

Then in play I could spend gained points on unlocking other powers, add flight as an alternate power for jumping, add x-ray vision to super senses (then make heat vision an alternate power of x-ray vision just like in the comics).

Slowly increase the values of Strength and Toughness, add Kryptonite as a complication (first it only removes my powers per K-Metal from Krypton, scale it up with time) for extra Hero Points.

That sounds like proof positive that point buy is shit to me. If point buy worked I wouldn't have to play a bit to work my way into the full fledged character I "envision". I would be able to get a fully realized version of it, without exception, from day one. And the GM would pay me to play this character, then thank me for the opportunity.

Why should I have to work to eventually get 100% the character that I want, when the "stated purpose" of point buy is to be unabated, universal and without setbacks or constraints, automatic wish fulfillment engine?

PS: I would've done the same thing, but basing it on Smallville, since that's the source material I'm familiar with.

Superman isn't invulnerable. But thanks, you reminded me to add his vulnerability to kryptonite.

I'm sure you would let a player play a character that can't be harmed in your game, right? Lmao. What a clown.

Quote from: VisionStorm
Why should I have to work to eventually get 100% the character that I want

You don't.

  It is not inherently bad, the big names that use it are more complicated games that offer so many options I do see it creating "paralysis by analysis" with newer players making characters.   This I have solved for years by asking players what sort of character they would like to play, finding a template to match up to the archetype and doing most of the work for them in 5-10 minutes and letting them do the last bit of customizing (which if we are running fast will take me 2-5 minutes with them and me making suggestions based on what they told me they want to be/play). 

   For session 0 games where players make their own characters and I just sort of answer what questions they ask and let them do it...the less schooled players looking for archetypes themselves will take a long time to make a character (3-4 hours) and that is with me stepping in to help.   The biggest weakness I see from the bigger two (Hero and GURPS) is it takes a great deal of "study" time for the GM to take new players and get characters rolling.  I had and read the GURPS base books for a few years before we played it, and I read them like I was studying for an exam.   I am not saying it takes that level of effort to get characters made and run a game, but it is certainly a bit of a barrier for a GM and players who have never played it before and want to try a new game.

   I can not speak to other point buy systems ( I own a couple of Eden Studios games, but never ran or played them) unless we are counting SW, but its no where near the same level of front loaded options. 

That's funny, I'm running a play by post right now and both players gave me finished character sheets after like a day with almost no assistance, and I only found a few minor errors in one of them (they were both new to the system)

Quote from: Domina on December 24, 2023, 08:00:05 PM
That's funny, I'm running a play by post right now and both players gave me finished character sheets after like a day with almost no assistance, and I only found a few minor errors in one of them (they were both new to the system)

  System?