Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 01:25:20 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

The problem with your analysis is that while there are been a bewildering array of rulesets released for classic D&D like your Lion & Dragon, for the clones that seek to adhere closely to a specific edition the big sellers have been relatively stable. From 2009 to 2019 the lineup was Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC. Old School Essential is the first close clone to successfully complete with one of these three.

As for creativity, you can be as snobbish as you want but the fact that the hack that ignited this rests on open content. The fact that if you take the d20 SRD, and omit the newer mechanics, the result is but a hop and a skip from a specific classic edition. As a result, people are free to do what they want with the material including stuff like Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.

And lest everybody forget circa 2018, Gavin Norman B/X Essentials was just one more close clone. The reason why it became popular is that people saw value in it. As evidenced by the success of multiple Kickstarter over the years. And classic edition hobbyists see more value in OSE than they do for my Majestic Fantasy RPG or your Lion & Dragon.

That is OK as far as I am concerned. Doesn't impact what I do, my ability to produce the stuff I want in the form I want it, or my ability to share or sell my material.  I focus instead on making the next thing I share or sell better than the previous project.

In contrast, you whine and moan about it and mock what Gavin Norman and his team do. It reeks of jealousy because you haven't achieved similar success.

My product is exactly as successful as OSE. Platinum and Gold bestsellers.

Again, the point of this seems moot when you can get any of the TSR rulebooks from drivethru today. Though maybe Dolmenwood is good, I don't know, I've never read it or seen much about it.

I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
Again, the point of this seems moot when you can get any of the TSR rulebooks from drivethru today. Though maybe Dolmenwood is good, I don't know, I've never read it or seen much about it.

I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

1. A lot of people want print books, which you can get today with OSE, whereas WotC has been dragging for years on POD copies of the B/X rule books.

2. I think not having to give WotC money is a pretty strong selling point. But OSE also has a very active ecosystem of third-party adventures and supplements being published right now that are B/X compatible. YMMV on quality, but basically B/X is better supported today than it was 40 years ago.

Quote from: Crusader X on July 20, 2022, 06:44:28 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

OSE is organized better, and some rules are explained better.  That's really the main selling point.  Oh, and OSE adds the option to use ascending AC rather than descending AC.

There are two versions of OSE though:

OSE Classic, which is a 99.5% faithful clone of D&D B/X
OSE Advanced, which takes the D&D B/X rules and adds classes, races, monsters, and magic items from AD&D, but re-formatted to fit the D&D B/X engine

D&D B/X is my favorite RPG.  Its what I'm playing right now.  But at the table, I use the OSE Classic book when I need to look something up, because its easier to use.  Not that the original B/X rules were difficult to use.  But the OSE layout is just nicer, so it brings value to my games.

I just started an AD&D 1E campaign using just a few home rules such as ascending AC, and a few things from Unearthed Arcana.   
We hadn't played AD&D 1E in many years, so I took time out to  reread the DMG again. 
It is terribly organized and it's my hardcopy, so I've been using Labyrinth Lord Advanced in a similar manner;
to quickly search the PDF and lookup what I need quickly at the table.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

Bingo. This is exactly what I want. I haven't bought OSE but only because (a) I have Basic and Expert on DriveThru already and (b) have a printer up to the task of making my own hardcopies. If either weren't true I'd probably be getting OSE.

There's a broader point to be made, though: the OSE SRD completely unshackles B/X not just from WOTC but from everyone. No one has to worry if Necrotic Gnome goes off the deep end politically, in either direction, or even just start putting out low-quality crap. If that happens, we take the SRD and make our own B/X with blackjack and hookers. Bullshit can now be treated as damage and routed around.

I would say OSE is the big boy on top. At least in presence and visually.

I won't deny it's appeal and I'm grateful if it has converted people to earlier editions but I have not seen an appealing reason to get it. And it could just be because my preferred edition is AD&D2e, which I have. And yes, while not optimal to give WotC money, my players have bought the POD of the core rules off dtrpg if they want a copy or they're free to find good deals, which are still available, on eBay or elsewhere/2nd hand market.

So hurray for Gavin, I hate Exalted Funeral though, ever since they kicked Aaron the Pedantic from their discord cause some rainbow hair felt unsafe.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
...
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

And we finally get to the real question.

With quality clones like OSE: Why would anyone willingly give WotC money?

Quote from: Jaeger on July 24, 2022, 01:05:20 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
...
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

And we finally get to the real question.

With quality clones like OSE: Why would anyone willingly give WotC money?

Because some people prefer an original (with the name brand) to a knock-off, even if the knock-off is of comparable quality.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 24, 2022, 01:12:57 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on July 24, 2022, 01:05:20 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
...
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

And we finally get to the real question.

With quality clones like OSE: Why would anyone willingly give WotC money?

Because some people prefer an original (with the name brand) to a knock-off, even if the knock-off is of comparable quality.

Eh?  OSE is a better knock off of anything WotC is putting out now days.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 24, 2022, 01:12:57 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on July 24, 2022, 01:05:20 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
...
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

And we finally get to the real question.

With quality clones like OSE: Why would anyone willingly give WotC money?

Because some people prefer to fap fap fap to the woke scolds and have to apologize for bullshit microagressions from yesteryear.

Fixed your typo.

The reason I want OSR games is that D&D is overpriced.  I was just at my big chain of bookstore yesterday, and D&D 5E three-book boxed set is $168. 

I can get all kinds of OSR digital rulebooks for free.  It's why I mentioned Basic Fantasy, which I got in paperback for $5.  The shipping costs more.  And it didn't need three books.

What I'm not going to agree with is the idea that Old School Essentials is the top OSR game.  I'm not sure there even can be a determination which OSR game is the "best" one.  They're not even based on the same D&D editions, and many have changes to the rules that the authors prefer.

That's the second reason I like OSR.  I can get games that fix problems I have with D&D, even up to current 5E.  I like Star Adventurer for three reasons.  It's short at 35 pages, hit points don't pile up so fast, and Vancian magic with spells per day is replaced by skill check rolls and 4 hour timed cool down if you fail.

For me I wouldn't want to play an OSR that faithfully reproduced old D&D with no changes.  I want rules more like how I would modify the game, and at this point there are probably several that already exist. 

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

Hmm....... That idea does have a certain appeal to it.

Quote from: SHARK on July 22, 2022, 05:10:48 PM
Greetings!

OSRIC is cool. I own the book. OSE sounds cool, as well. It is good that there are retroclones and by now, extensive and detailed variants.

I own the original D&D and AD&D books, so I am not only a fan and supporter of "Old School Games"--I was there when D&D originally began. I started about 1977.

As for the retroclone and variant-game haters, they are just jealous, or fucking whining crybabies.

Retroclones and new variants of the older game have revitalized the hobby, and brought new gamers into the hobby. Furthermore, the retroclones and variant games have also by their contributions and visibility, created a formidable, vibrant, and growing market-space that is an alternative to WOTC and BAIZU.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I came back into the thread to basically say exactly what you did. Bollocks. But also good job for explaining it. So yeah, I do a paid GM gig for a bunch of home educated kids. I had a choice of using my beat up, dog eared, B/X books I found in a cupboard of my Dad's old belongings after he passed. Or I could use the hardback OSE Advanced I found that looked visually much more interesting and modern for a bunch of kids with low attention span. The choice was an obvious one. Maybe I would've been more of a stuck up hipster and insisted on full THAC0 decending AC hardcore stuff if this were just a casual game with friends. But these are kids. And I already insisted on 3d6 in order.  These kids would never get into anything other than 5E if I didn't present it in a way so it wasn't just for sweaty grognards like myself. Now these kids are switched on to old school gaming I'm planning on running Traveller for them in the future and they seem very excited. They've become quite accustomed to hardcore and gritty campaigns. So they tell me.

I am absolutely seeing OSE lead the charge of bringing awareness towards the OSR and old school gaming. Because it's the nicest presented version of B/X and it's turning people onto more games. It turns out Mr Pundit that this could actually benefit you since people will obviously get into stuff like Lion & Dragon, Star Adventurer, and other people's games like Operation Whitebox which another group of mine is currently playing.

I don't see the appeal of OSE vs. Labyrinth Lord or S&W, but good for them. At this point, all the various retroclones are really a matter of personal preference (aka which artwork, layout and writing you prefer).

As for Old Books vs. New Books, I'm sure that a brand new printing of TSR books put into the hands of teenager would be just as good as a new printing of any retroclone. Handing teens old, worn books of course won't appeal as much in the era of mass consumerism of the new.

Yeah, getting rid of THAC0 and going with ascending armor class is a selling point for any OSR.  I get that some people are nostalgic, but THAC0 was what nailed that coffin shut and reaffirmed my chosen system (Palladium Fantasy) was a sound one.