Quote from: Persimmon on July 22, 2022, 12:41:19 PM
The funny thing is that all these people arguing OSE Advanced is a clone of AD&D have clearly never seen it.  Is Pepsi a clone of Coke?  OSE Advanced is arguably more distinct from AD&D than Pepsi from Coke, though you can see where the origins of both lay.

And yes, I own and play both AD&D & OSE Advanced and drink both Coke & Pepsi, though I prefer Coke.

OSE Advanced is really just another case of the emperor's new clones.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

The problem with your analysis is that while there are been a bewildering array of rulesets released for classic D&D like your Lion & Dragon, for the clones that seek to adhere closely to a specific edition the big sellers have been relatively stable. From 2009 to 2019 the lineup was Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC. Old School Essential is the first close clone to successfully complete with one of these three.

As for creativity, you can be as snobbish as you want but the fact that the hack that ignited this rests on open content. The fact that if you take the d20 SRD, and omit the newer mechanics, the result is but a hop and a skip from a specific classic edition. As a result, people are free to do what they want with the material including stuff like Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.

And lest everybody forget circa 2018, Gavin Norman B/X Essentials was just one more close clone. The reason why it became popular is that people saw value in it. As evidenced by the success of multiple Kickstarter over the years. And classic edition hobbyists see more value in OSE than they do for my Majestic Fantasy RPG or your Lion & Dragon.

That is OK as far as I am concerned. Doesn't impact what I do, my ability to produce the stuff I want in the form I want it, or my ability to share or sell my material.  I focus instead on making the next thing I share or sell better than the previous project.

In contrast, you whine and moan about it and mock what Gavin Norman and his team do. It reeks of jealousy because you haven't achieved similar success. You have been doing this consistently every since Stuart Marshall replied "neener neener" when you were complaining about the success of OSRIC over Forward the Adventure.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-working-definition-of-the-osr/msg793856/#msg793856

Also since the links are broken here the original thread.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/old-school-rocks-retro-clones-suck/msg282499/?topicseen#msg282499

Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 01:25:20 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

The problem with your analysis is that while there are been a bewildering array of rulesets released for classic D&D like your Lion & Dragon, for the clones that seek to adhere closely to a specific edition the big sellers have been relatively stable. From 2009 to 2019 the lineup was Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC. Old School Essential is the first close clone to successfully complete with one of these three.

As for creativity, you can be as snobbish as you want but the fact that the hack that ignited this rests on open content. The fact that if you take the d20 SRD, and omit the newer mechanics, the result is but a hop and a skip from a specific classic edition. As a result, people are free to do what they want with the material including stuff like Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.

And lest everybody forget circa 2018, Gavin Norman B/X Essentials was just one more close clone. The reason why it became popular is that people saw value in it. As evidenced by the success of multiple Kickstarter over the years. And classic edition hobbistssee more value in OSE than they do for my Majestic Fantasy RPG or your Lion & Dragon.

That is OK as far as I am concerned. Doesn't impact what I do, my ability to produce the stuff I want in the form I want it, or my ability to share or sell my material.  I focus instead on making the next thing I share or sell better than the previous project.

In contrast, you whine and moan about it and mock what Gavin Norman and his team do. It reeks of jealousy because you haven't achieved similar success. You have been doing this consistently every since Stuart Marshall replied "neener neener" when you were complaining about the success of OSRIC over Forward the Adventure.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-working-definition-of-the-osr/msg793856/#msg793856

Also since the links are broken here the original thread.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/old-school-rocks-retro-clones-suck/msg282499/?topicseen#msg282499

Look, Rob: OSE Basic is nothing more than a clone of B/X, just as OSE Advanced is little more than a clone of AD&D - as established upthread. As I said just before, OSE really is the emperor's new clones.
PS - what is hobbistssee?

Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 01:31:48 PM

Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 01:25:20 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

The problem with your analysis is that while there are been a bewildering array of rulesets released for classic D&D like your Lion & Dragon, for the clones that seek to adhere closely to a specific edition the big sellers have been relatively stable. From 2009 to 2019 the lineup was Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC. Old School Essential is the first close clone to successfully complete with one of these three.

As for creativity, you can be as snobbish as you want but the fact that the hack that ignited this rests on open content. The fact that if you take the d20 SRD, and omit the newer mechanics, the result is but a hop and a skip from a specific classic edition. As a result, people are free to do what they want with the material including stuff like Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.

And lest everybody forget circa 2018, Gavin Norman B/X Essentials was just one more close clone. The reason why it became popular is that people saw value in it. As evidenced by the success of multiple Kickstarter over the years. And classic edition hobbistssee more value in OSE than they do for my Majestic Fantasy RPG or your Lion & Dragon.

That is OK as far as I am concerned. Doesn't impact what I do, my ability to produce the stuff I want in the form I want it, or my ability to share or sell my material.  I focus instead on making the next thing I share or sell better than the previous project.

In contrast, you whine and moan about it and mock what Gavin Norman and his team do. It reeks of jealousy because you haven't achieved similar success. You have been doing this consistently every since Stuart Marshall replied "neener neener" when you were complaining about the success of OSRIC over Forward the Adventure.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-working-definition-of-the-osr/msg793856/#msg793856

Also since the links are broken here the original thread.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/old-school-rocks-retro-clones-suck/msg282499/?topicseen#msg282499

Look, Rob: OSE Basic is nothing more than a clone of B/X, just as OSE Advanced is little more than a clone of AD&D - as established upthread. As I said just before, OSE really is the emperor's new clones.
PS - what is hobbistssee?

But it's not, as anyone actually seeing it would realize.  More significantly, this still misses the original point, which is the amazing success of OSE, building steam over several years and swallowing up previous contenders.  This is what is most notable. 

Consider this fact.  DCC's recent KS for The Black Tower, which was their most successful ever, raised $450K.  DCC is obviously a pretty big name these days and has a bigger brick and mortar presence than most of these games in the broader OSR sphere.  Yet the OSE KS running around the same time, raised $770K for a mere reprint of boxed sets just months after it raised $290K in a KS for essentially the same material.  So we're talking about over 1 million dollars here, which is pretty amazing for a small operation.

And as I noted, this is accompanied by lots of third party material being produced for it, including by Frog God, another notable name in the OSR field, hitching their wagon to OSE with the departure of Matt Finch & S&W.  Furthermore, I'm seeing at more and more local gaming stores, including the one in the small town I live in.

So whether or not you like it, or want to denigrate it as "just a clone," I think it's fair to say that OSE is doing some unprecedented and impactful things in and for the OSR.

Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 01:31:48 PM
Look, Rob: OSE Basic is nothing more than a clone of B/X, just as OSE Advanced is little more than a clone of AD&D - as established upthread.

People have tried to patiently explain the appeal of Old School Essentials to you upthread. I don't why would you accept my explanation any more than you have the others.

OSE is a clone of B/X edited for clarity and with a layout that many consider superior to the original. You may prefer how the original was written, or how the original was laid out and that is fine. But other hobbyists feel it has values as evidenced by Necrotic Gnome's success with their Kickstarter.

Complaining is not going to change anything. I am not pointing this out to get you shut up. Rather to highlight the fact that with the wealth of open content and low barriers for publishing and sharing, it is all about what individual authors want to do. If you want to know why OSE was creative then ask Gavin Norman. Just like I can tell you why I wrote the Majestic Fantasy RPG and my other works.

If you feel strongly enough about it then you can make or share your own material showing the rest of us how to do it right. Despite my criticisms, I applaud the RPGPundit for taking advantage of the situation and getting his stuff out there. Still think his marketing and complaints are bullshit.

Also if you feel that the originals are not given than due, then you can blog, or use social media to promote the original and how people can get it on DriveThruRPG like here
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic

But until they get a PoD version up it will be tough to convince the general hobby to use the originals. Causal Hobbyists don't like dealing with the used market a s a rule.

Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 01:31:48 PM
PS - what is hobbistssee?

hobbyists see

Quote from: Persimmon on July 22, 2022, 12:41:19 PM
The funny thing is that all these people arguing OSE Advanced is a clone of AD&D have clearly never seen it.  Is Pepsi a clone of Coke?  OSE Advanced is arguably more distinct from AD&D than Pepsi from Coke, though you can see where the origins of both lay.

And yes, I own and play both AD&D & OSE Advanced and drink both Coke & Pepsi, though I prefer Coke.

   Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?

Quote from: Persimmon on July 22, 2022, 01:48:53 PM


But it's not, as anyone actually seeing it would realize.  More significantly, this still misses the original point, which is the amazing success of OSE, building steam over several years and swallowing up previous contenders.  This is what is most notable. 

Consider this fact.  DCC's recent KS for The Black Tower, which was their most successful ever, raised $450K.  DCC is obviously a pretty big name these days and has a bigger brick and mortar presence than most of these games in the broader OSR sphere.  Yet the OSE KS running around the same time, raised $770K for a mere reprint of boxed sets just months after it raised $290K in a KS for essentially the same material.  So we're talking about over 1 million dollars here, which is pretty amazing for a small operation.

Black Tower also had a 5E option which is another reason why it succeeded.

I think OSE's success is down to:

• Its superior layout and presentation. Yes, the original B/X and other retroclones had pretty good organization, certainly much better than OD&D and AD&D. But OSE is simply unmatched in the way it always puts everything you need for every class on a two-page spread, the way it lays bare the exact intended procedure for exploration and for combat, etc.
• The high quality of the official OSE adventures in both content and design, naturally pulling other people to check out the system and emulate the house style.
• Slick marketing for all its products.
• The breadth and quality of optional content like classes, both the stuff in the Advanced rules adapted from AD&D, but also the stuff in Carcass Crawler.
• The fact that all the optional content for OSE is properly B/X-ified and carefully balanced against the original classes. This is a big one: simply importing classes from AD&D yourself or using the versions from Labyrinth Lord will leave you with classes that are just better than the base classes and crowd them out. Adapting them yourself is a lot of work. The fact that Gavin has done that work for us with the usual attention to detail is valuable and people are willing to pay for it.
• The promise of the Dolmenwood setting, which looks like pound-for-pound easily one of the best settings ever.
• The relative state of other retroclones, which were some combination of old and without all that much ongoing first-party support (LL) or in flux and with an even more confusing product line than OSE (S&W).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
   Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?

Yes.

Basically the success of Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition and OSE Advanced reflect the fact that back in the day most folks were using AD&D stuff with B/X style rules. The popularity of that combination continues to the present.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
   Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?

Labyrinth Lord AEC adds the 1e classes and the race/class split, so it's basically 1e character options but using the B/X mechanics. It's said that a comparable AEC character is weaker than its 1e counterpart.

OSE Advanced makes the 1e classes/races into proper B/X classes, including race-as-class. So you've got like Rangers, Paladins, Assassins, etc. which by default are human. You also have classes for like Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Gnome, etc. OSE also has optional rules to split race and class, which brings it closer to AEC.

TL;DR LL AEC is 1e characters using B/X mechanics. OSE Advanced is 1e characters converted to B/X characters.

Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 02:14:07 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
   Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?

Yes.

Basically the success of Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition and OSE Advanced reflect the fact that back in the day most folks were using AD&D stuff with B/X style rules. The popularity of that combination continues to the present.

Yes.  And Greg Gillespie will be publishing his own rules set of "AD&D stuff with B/X style rules" next year.

Greetings!

OSRIC is cool. I own the book. OSE sounds cool, as well. It is good that there are retroclones and by now, extensive and detailed variants.

I own the original D&D and AD&D books, so I am not only a fan and supporter of "Old School Games"--I was there when D&D originally began. I started about 1977.

As for the retroclone and variant-game haters, they are just jealous, or fucking whining crybabies.

Retroclones and new variants of the older game have revitalized the hobby, and brought new gamers into the hobby. Furthermore, the retroclones and variant games have also by their contributions and visibility, created a formidable, vibrant, and growing market-space that is an alternative to WOTC and BAIZU.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Crusader X on July 22, 2022, 04:56:15 PM

Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 02:14:07 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
   Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?

Yes.

Basically the success of Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition and OSE Advanced reflect the fact that back in the day most folks were using AD&D stuff with B/X style rules. The popularity of that combination continues to the present.

Yes.  And Greg Gillespie will be publishing his own rules set of "AD&D stuff with B/X style rules" next year.

I cannot wait for it to come out so I can plunk down cash to buy a copy.  Shame he couldn't get the LL licenses.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 22, 2022, 06:09:51 PM

Quote from: Crusader X on July 22, 2022, 04:56:15 PM

Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 02:14:07 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
   Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?

Yes.

Basically the success of Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition and OSE Advanced reflect the fact that back in the day most folks were using AD&D stuff with B/X style rules. The popularity of that combination continues to the present.

Yes.  And Greg Gillespie will be publishing his own rules set of "AD&D stuff with B/X style rules" next year.

I cannot wait for it to come out so I can plunk down cash to buy a copy.  Shame he couldn't get the LL licenses.

Same!  Greg does good stuff.  I don't know if his rules will replace B/X (via OSE) as my go-to game, but I'll definitely be checking it out.

A friend of mine left the OSE Advanced Fantasy book here several months ago, and after skimming through it again....my verdict is:

It's just another clone.

I don't wanna irritate anyone in this thread......but the layout for OSE is.....average. The art is average. It's ok, but a little dull. I just don't see anything particularly distinctive about this product. To be totally honest, I would rather just use the Basic D&D books, since the original games have superior art, superior layout, and do a better job at instructing a novice in how to play the game.

In other words, a clone is a clone is a clone. Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's fine. But I mean, come on. It's just another clone.