So I was recently notified by Necromancer Games (affiliated with Frog God) that they're running a new Kickstarter for conversions of the Zach Glazar adventure/setting "Whisper & Venom." What surprised me was that the conversions are for 5e and Old School Essentials. I knew that Matt Finch had broken from Frog God and decided to take Swords & Wizardry with him despite a fairly successful Swords & Wizardry KS last year that produced a digest sized boxed set along the lines of those produced by Necrotic Gnome for OSE (and inspired by the LBB of course). Not sure what prompted Finch to leave but the decision by Necromancer/Frog God to start producing material for OSE seems to be an indication that OSE is fully established as the "Top Dog" in the OSR these days. They've even indicated they're emulating OSE's module layout with the bullets points (which I don't care for myself), though the verdict is still out on digest-sizing.
As for OSE, Gavin Norman has done a great job of marketing it. He's essentially been recycling the same material in different packages for three years now yet each KS has surpassed the previous one. The most recent one surpassed $770K and all it does is re-package old material. Amazing what presentation, layout and buzz can do for you. Even my pretty mediocre FLGS carries OSE products. I like it well enough, but that's because of my love of B/X D&D and now that I have my Rules Tomes I see no need to keep buying the same material. But OSE has seemingly driven Labyrinth Lord, which used to be the game that seemed to get the most third party material, into the ground. I suspect S&W will retain its smaller niche market as should games like Hyperborea, which just released a third edition. But they just don't seem to have the mass appeal of OSE.
So what do you think? Is OSE the new champ? What OSR game has a reasonable chance of dethroning it?
I just bought the hardcover Advanced Player's, and Referee's Tomes, and I love them. I am currently in the midst of convincing my 5e-playing group to switch over to OSE.
Quote from: Persimmon on July 19, 2022, 10:50:09 PM
But OSE has seemingly driven Labyrinth Lord, which used to be the game that seemed to get the most third party material, into the ground. I suspect S&W will retain its smaller niche market as should games like Hyperborea, which just released a third edition. But they just don't seem to have the mass appeal of OSE.
So what do you think? Is OSE the new champ? What OSR game has a reasonable chance of dethroning it?
I'd wager it's because OSE seems to be the first big retro clone that's stayed 100% true to the rules of BX. All of the others that I can think of, good as some of them are, are usually 95-99% TSR rules, with that final 1-5% being the author's tweaks/home-rules/etc.
Which, on the one hand is cool because it's getting new people into BX (whether they realize it or not) and it's causing some great new adventures/content which is 100% mechanically compatible with BX appear on the market. On the other hand, it's kinda lame, because all these new folks are learning BX without the aid of the original text to put it all into proper context.
As for dethroning, who could say? I think at this point though, it's poised to stay relevant for some time, unless of course the woke mobs find some reason to direct their ire at Gavin. Since it's faithful to the source, the only way a game could naturally dethrone it is to figure out a way to organize/package even better than OSE did. But, with as good as OSE is packaged, I can't imagine that happening.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 19, 2022, 11:22:07 PM
I just bought the hardcover Advanced Player's, and Referee's Tomes, and I love them. I am currently in the midst of convincing my 5e-playing group to switch over to OSE.
We finished a 2 year OSE campaign earlier this year and have been doing other games since. Currently running Necropolis for Swords & Wizardry but it looks like we'll be switching back to OSE Advanced once that campaign ends. My players just love the streamlined flexibility. We have a few house rules and have ported a few things over from DCC and it runs great. We briefly tried playing DCC straight, but after having played OSE the group found DCC too clunky at the table so we just pulled parts we liked to bolt onto OSE. I think that flexibility has always been a hallmark of B/X.
I saw that Goblinoid Games is shutting down all social media presence, but continuing to sell products online for now, with more info to follow.
Not sure if Labyrinth Lord is getting squeezed out by OSE, if the author/owner wants to take a break for personal reasons, or if he's just getting off social media to avoid SJWs.
Quote from: Hackmaster on July 20, 2022, 11:42:25 AM
I saw that Goblinoid Games is shutting down all social media presence, but continuing to sell products online for now, with more info to follow.
Not sure if Labyrinth Lord is getting squeezed out by OSE, if the author/owner wants to take a break for personal reasons, or if he's just getting off social media to avoid SJWs.
He said in his FB post he'll have more information in the coming weeks. I'm wondering if he's not selling his games to another publisher.
My vote would be Basic Fantasy by Chris Gonnerman.
Quote from: Persimmon on July 19, 2022, 10:50:09 PM
SWhat surprised me was that the conversions are for 5e and Old School Essentials. I knew that Matt Finch had broken from Frog God and decided to take Swords & Wizardry with him despite a fairly successful Swords & Wizardry KS last year that produced a digest sized boxed set along the lines of those produced by Necrotic Gnome for OSE (and inspired by the LBB of course).
Why did Matt Finch leave? He's been a stalwart of FGG since the very early days.
Quote from: Hackmaster on July 20, 2022, 11:42:25 AM
I saw that Goblinoid Games is shutting down all social media presence, but continuing to sell products online for now, with more info to follow.
Not sure if Labyrinth Lord is getting squeezed out by OSE, if the author/owner wants to take a break for personal reasons, or if he's just getting off social media to avoid SJWs.
I don't know either. I've heard indirectly that others have pushed for an update/revision of LL or even offered to buy the IP without success.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 20, 2022, 01:35:17 PM
My vote would be Basic Fantasy by Chris Gonnerman.
Personally I find that the dullest of all the retroclones, though at least it's priced right.
But it has no presence in this discussion. Is anyone making content for it beyond the creators and random fans? Does it have any presence in game stores? Is it really notable for anything beyond being cheap and simple? Not that I know of. Not hating here, just relating facts.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 20, 2022, 02:20:01 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 19, 2022, 10:50:09 PM
SWhat surprised me was that the conversions are for 5e and Old School Essentials. I knew that Matt Finch had broken from Frog God and decided to take Swords & Wizardry with him despite a fairly successful Swords & Wizardry KS last year that produced a digest sized boxed set along the lines of those produced by Necrotic Gnome for OSE (and inspired by the LBB of course).
Why did Matt Finch leave? He's been a stalwart of FGG since the very early days.
Not sure. Sometime late last year he announced he was reviving Mythmere and taking S&W with him. I have no idea if Matt or Bill Webb (or both) initiated the break-up. But I do think it's telling that Frog God pivoted to making OSE products so quickly. We've seen lots of companies let their own products atrophy while tapping into the 5e market (looking at you Troll Lord), but it's interesting to see how OSE has come to sort of dominate the OSR scene to the point of their layout being emulated even by independent authors producing compatible content.
Their layout is highly usable in both print and digital formats. It's easy to read and find stuff at a glance at the table. If it pushes other people to make more readable and table-friendly content, I'm all for it. Plus it's refreshing compared to the overwritten organizational mess of say, WotC or Paizo products.
Matt Finch is supposedly working on yet another new edition of Swords & Wizardry with a new errata. If his recent Tome of Adventure Design edition is any indicator, it should have a cleaner layout also.
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
OSE is organized better, and some rules are explained better. That's really the main selling point. Oh, and OSE adds the option to use ascending AC rather than descending AC.
There are two versions of OSE though:
OSE Classic, which is a 99.5% faithful clone of D&D B/X
OSE Advanced, which takes the D&D B/X rules and adds classes, races, monsters, and magic items from AD&D, but re-formatted to fit the D&D B/X engine
D&D B/X is my favorite RPG. Its what I'm playing right now. But at the table, I use the OSE Classic book when I need to look something up, because its easier to use. Not that the original B/X rules were difficult to use. But the OSE layout is just nicer, so it brings value to my games.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Comparing it to Mork Borg! That's fucking awful! LOL
Oh yeah, soon as some neatly laid out clone hits the market OSE will fade like LL did. The cycle will keep repeating itself.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I think they have a few things going for them:
- They've done some cleaning up of rules and, as others have mentioned, the ascending armor class as an option is a plus
- They've tossed in some 1e era options that have been retrofitted nicely
- They have a very nice presentation. I have the PDFs for the current Kickstarter printing and the two boxed sets coming
- A lot of support material that's also quite polished, also from Necrotic Gnome but also some excellent third party stuff
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
In 6 months? That's a pretty specific assertion Pundit. Are you aware of an upcoming release, that hasn't been announced yet?
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
If in six months someone manages to make a better laid out, organized and pretty B/X clone with lots of different expansions like OSE then I will be very impressed and then buy it. But it has to be a superior product. That doesn't just mean better or different rules. Sometimes going between multiple different B/X books to get what I need is tedious. I like games like LotFP and OSE because they shove everything in one place for convenience. And have modern layouts so they are easier to parse. That doesn't mean I won't use other games. I've got a really cool Operation Whitebox game going right now as a team of grizzled Marines explore the Underdark from the Veins of the Earth. So I am okay with clones and different games.
Gavin does appear to be the current Anointed One among the OSR.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
I think you underestimate how many people don't want a D&D-based game, they want D&D. Just not WOTC D&D.
OSE provides that: it's the same (AFAIK up to a few rules where they had to pick one of multiple possible interpretations) rules as one of the most beloved editions of the original game, without having to pay the wokegeld.
Plus its SRD and product identity license provide legal cover to write B/X adventures.
Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.
OSE is BX for hipsters.
Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.
No.. Not at all. Advanced OSE is still B/X. They added some rules and advanced classes to OSE converted to the B/X format. It's not a clone of AD&D. It's it's own thing.
Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.
Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post. Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone. Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X. This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.
P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.
OSE is a cool game and it will last for a long while.
B/X has many qualities and OSE is a better organized version, with a few added options ("advanced").
It is not my clone of choice (that would be my own clone), but it has one a combination of things (good looks, compatibly/nostalgia, and support with adventures, zines, etc.) that makes it hard to beat.
<laughs in AD&D>
Sure, Jan.
QuoteIs OSE now the Undisputed Champ of the OSR?
Dunno. I play original D&D and 1e AD&D, but I don't run the clones. I'm just not up on whatever clone has the spotlight at the moment (and don't really care). If I were to run a clone, it would probably be OSRIC (since it's basically 1e AD&D). Or I might run a clone if it had something cool or unique about the setting (especially if that is reflected in the clone's rules). Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea has a cool setting and some nice subclasses. Lion & Dragon is interesting for its "medieval authentic" spin on things. And so on. Even with those I'm more likely to just borrow what I want from them and still run the game with original D&D or 1e AD&D as its basis (whichever felt like the better fit).
For me, the main utility of clones isn't the cloned games, themselves, but rather supplements, settings, and modules that are compatible with the rules that I do actually run. The closer they are in compatibility the more likely I am to use them.
I bought both the Players (x4) and a Referee hardback and then later backed the Kickstarter for the OSE box sets.
I've shown my players both Savage worlds (we have run a few one shots in Savage Wolds) and OSE to find out which one our table is going to switch to next once our current PF2e campaign is over and OSE won.
I have been working on converting my homebrew world, classes and races over to OSE (which is very easy thing to do). My House rule document for OSE is only a single page that mostly details which optional rule we'll be using with a few homebrew rules that will be added in like natural 20 deals max weapon die damage, using 2d6+6 for rolling up stats (8-18 range) and for starter coin (80-180 starting gold) and a few other things tied to my homebrew game world.
No one in the group has been through Barrowmaze so I'm planning on using it but changing it up for all the smaller barrows to be on various small islands with a few leading into the big underground complex :)
No it's not the undisputed champion of the OSR. It's just the latest OSR flavor of the year but it does nothing new except it has a much more focused presentation of rules that, IMO, makes the game flavorless. I also have zero interest in BX as it's my least favorite edition of D&D. I'd rather play 5e, but then I'd have to scrape my brain clean with a spork afterwards.
Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.
Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post. Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone. Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X. This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.
P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.
As I said. Clone.
Look, how badly organised or hard to understand was BX in the first place? Answer: not very. OSE seeks to meet a false need; it's for consoomer product fetishicists with feeble imaginations and limited reading skills.
Quote from: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 01:59:05 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.
Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post. Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone. Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X. This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.
P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.
As I said. Clone.
To clone something is to copy something exactly you disingenuous cunt. OSE Advanced is objectively not a clone because it has Advanced Rules that were CHANGED (ie not taken verbatim) and adapted to B/X. It did not clone any rules from AD&D. It adapted and changed them. Stop splitting hairs when you are so completely wrong you could be a Twitter fact checker. OSE on it's own is a retroclone of B/X. Fine. But Advanced OSE adds new rules THAT WERE NOT PRESENT in either B/X or AD&D.
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 22, 2022, 06:01:54 AM
Quote from: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 01:59:05 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.
Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post. Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone. Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X. This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.
P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.
As I said. Clone.
To clone something is to copy something exactly you disingenuous cunt. OSE Advanced is objectively not a clone because it has Advanced Rules that were CHANGED (ie not taken verbatim) and adapted to B/X. It did not clone any rules from AD&D. It adapted and changed them. Stop splitting hairs when you are so completely wrong you could be a Twitter fact checker. OSE on it's own is a retroclone of B/X. Fine. But Advanced OSE adds new rules THAT WERE NOT PRESENT in either B/X or AD&D.
Well, if it's not a clone, it's VERY similar. Who's really splitting hairs or being a disingenuous cunt?
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 06:12:19 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 22, 2022, 06:01:54 AM
Quote from: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 01:59:05 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.
Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post. Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone. Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X. This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.
P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.
As I said. Clone.
To clone something is to copy something exactly you disingenuous cunt. OSE Advanced is objectively not a clone because it has Advanced Rules that were CHANGED (ie not taken verbatim) and adapted to B/X. It did not clone any rules from AD&D. It adapted and changed them. Stop splitting hairs when you are so completely wrong you could be a Twitter fact checker. OSE on it's own is a retroclone of B/X. Fine. But Advanced OSE adds new rules THAT WERE NOT PRESENT in either B/X or AD&D.
Well, if it's not a clone, it's VERY similar. Who's really splitting hairs or being a disingenuous cunt?
I didn't start or make the argument in the first place. A wrongful statement was made. Two people responded with the correct information only to get nitpicks because there was no actual rebuttal to be found. Your gotcha is denied.
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 22, 2022, 06:15:43 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 06:12:19 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 22, 2022, 06:01:54 AM
Quote from: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 01:59:05 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version. That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it. This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others. Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there. They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes. And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.
This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D. Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.
So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten. It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.
So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.
Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post. Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone. Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X. This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.
P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.
As I said. Clone.
To clone something is to copy something exactly you disingenuous cunt. OSE Advanced is objectively not a clone because it has Advanced Rules that were CHANGED (ie not taken verbatim) and adapted to B/X. It did not clone any rules from AD&D. It adapted and changed them. Stop splitting hairs when you are so completely wrong you could be a Twitter fact checker. OSE on it's own is a retroclone of B/X. Fine. But Advanced OSE adds new rules THAT WERE NOT PRESENT in either B/X or AD&D.
Well, if it's not a clone, it's VERY similar. Who's really splitting hairs or being a disingenuous cunt?
I didn't start or make the argument in the first place. A wrongful statement was made. Two people responded with the correct information only to get nitpicks because there was no actual rebuttal to be found. Your gotcha is denied.
So you aren't denying they're similar?
Who cares if it's a clone? It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans, and very easy to tack on house rules, or use old, or even current D&D and OSR supplements.
It is bound in quality hard backs, small i. Size so you don't have to lug around 50lbs of books.
The .pdf's are included when you buy the hardback. AND, you don't have to give money to the fascists at Drive-thru-one-bookshelf.
If you want to play original B/X your options are:
1)Use old crumbling books.
2)Buy .pdf's from Hazards of the Bro (who hate you),
3)Get ahold of the B/X Omnibus and print it out, or use the .pdf, which is not an authorized product so who knows how long it will be available.
Gavin Norman's game at least has lots of support material. They even have an SRD on the Necrotic Gnome website so you can see the game for yourself and decide whether or jot you want to buy it.
It's basically the OSRIC of B/X.
So what it if its a clone? It does what I need it to do, and very cheaply.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone? It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans
You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone? It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans
You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?
They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone? It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans, and very easy to tack on house rules, or use old, or even current D&D and OSR supplements.
It is bound in quality hard backs, small i. Size so you don't have to lug around 50lbs of books.
The .pdf's are included when you buy the hardback. AND, you don't have to give money to the fascists at Drive-thru-one-bookshelf.
If you want to play original B/X your options are:
1)Use old crumbling books.
2)Buy .pdf's from Hazards of the Bro (who hate you),
3)Get ahold of the B/X Omnibus and print it out, or use the .pdf, which is not an authorized product so who knows how long it will be available.
Gavin Norman's game at least has lots of support material. They even have an SRD on the Necrotic Gnome website so you can see the game for yourself and decide whether or jot you want to buy it.
It's basically the OSRIC of B/X.
So what it if its a clone? It does what I need it to do, and very cheaply.
So just print out the SRD and use that instead of dry-humping the overpriced, overproduced shovelware you seem to fetishize so readily.
Quote from: Slambo on July 22, 2022, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone? It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans
You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?
They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.
They're more than similar, though admittedly different in exactly the respects you mention.
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:28:31 AM
Quote from: Slambo on July 22, 2022, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone? It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans
You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?
They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.
They're more than similar, though admittedly different in exactly the respects you mention.
Jesus christ are you Zach S' clone? You argue as circular as he does
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 22, 2022, 11:40:58 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:28:31 AM
Quote from: Slambo on July 22, 2022, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone? It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans
You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?
They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.
They're more than similar, though admittedly different in exactly the respects you mention.
Jesus christ are you Zach S' clone? You argue as circular as he does
No, just similar :)
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 22, 2022, 11:40:58 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:28:31 AM
Quote from: Slambo on July 22, 2022, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone? It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans
You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?
They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.
They're more than similar, though admittedly different in exactly the respects you mention.
Jesus christ are you Zach S' clone? You argue as circular as he does
My current theory is he's an old account of Battlemaster's. Account registered in 2017 but all but 3 of his posts are from the last 48 hours. Could be way off base, though.
The funny thing is that all these people arguing OSE Advanced is a clone of AD&D have clearly never seen it. Is Pepsi a clone of Coke? OSE Advanced is arguably more distinct from AD&D than Pepsi from Coke, though you can see where the origins of both lay.
And yes, I own and play both AD&D & OSE Advanced and drink both Coke & Pepsi, though I prefer Coke.
Quote from: Persimmon on July 22, 2022, 12:41:19 PM
The funny thing is that all these people arguing OSE Advanced is a clone of AD&D have clearly never seen it. Is Pepsi a clone of Coke? OSE Advanced is arguably more distinct from AD&D than Pepsi from Coke, though you can see where the origins of both lay.
And yes, I own and play both AD&D & OSE Advanced and drink both Coke & Pepsi, though I prefer Coke.
OSE Advanced is really just another case of the emperor's new clones.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
The problem with your analysis is that while there are been a bewildering array of rulesets released for classic D&D like your Lion & Dragon, for the clones that seek to adhere closely to a specific edition the big sellers have been relatively stable. From 2009 to 2019 the lineup was Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC. Old School Essential is the first close clone to successfully complete with one of these three.
As for creativity, you can be as snobbish as you want but the fact that the hack that ignited this rests on open content. The fact that if you take the d20 SRD, and omit the newer mechanics, the result is but a hop and a skip from a specific classic edition. As a result, people are free to do what they want with the material including stuff like Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.
And lest everybody forget circa 2018, Gavin Norman B/X Essentials was just one more close clone. The reason why it became popular is that people saw value in it. As evidenced by the success of multiple Kickstarter over the years. And classic edition hobbyists see more value in OSE than they do for my Majestic Fantasy RPG or your Lion & Dragon.
That is OK as far as I am concerned. Doesn't impact what I do, my ability to produce the stuff I want in the form I want it, or my ability to share or sell my material. I focus instead on making the next thing I share or sell better than the previous project.
In contrast, you whine and moan about it and mock what Gavin Norman and his team do. It reeks of jealousy because you haven't achieved similar success. You have been doing this consistently every since Stuart Marshall replied "neener neener" when you were complaining about the success of OSRIC over Forward the Adventure.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-working-definition-of-the-osr/msg793856/#msg793856
Also since the links are broken here the original thread.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/old-school-rocks-retro-clones-suck/msg282499/?topicseen#msg282499
Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 01:25:20 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
The problem with your analysis is that while there are been a bewildering array of rulesets released for classic D&D like your Lion & Dragon, for the clones that seek to adhere closely to a specific edition the big sellers have been relatively stable. From 2009 to 2019 the lineup was Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC. Old School Essential is the first close clone to successfully complete with one of these three.
As for creativity, you can be as snobbish as you want but the fact that the hack that ignited this rests on open content. The fact that if you take the d20 SRD, and omit the newer mechanics, the result is but a hop and a skip from a specific classic edition. As a result, people are free to do what they want with the material including stuff like Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.
And lest everybody forget circa 2018, Gavin Norman B/X Essentials was just one more close clone. The reason why it became popular is that people saw value in it. As evidenced by the success of multiple Kickstarter over the years. And classic edition hobbistssee more value in OSE than they do for my Majestic Fantasy RPG or your Lion & Dragon.
That is OK as far as I am concerned. Doesn't impact what I do, my ability to produce the stuff I want in the form I want it, or my ability to share or sell my material. I focus instead on making the next thing I share or sell better than the previous project.
In contrast, you whine and moan about it and mock what Gavin Norman and his team do. It reeks of jealousy because you haven't achieved similar success. You have been doing this consistently every since Stuart Marshall replied "neener neener" when you were complaining about the success of OSRIC over Forward the Adventure.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-working-definition-of-the-osr/msg793856/#msg793856
Also since the links are broken here the original thread.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/old-school-rocks-retro-clones-suck/msg282499/?topicseen#msg282499
Look, Rob: OSE Basic is nothing more than a clone of B/X, just as OSE Advanced is little more than a clone of AD&D - as established upthread. As I said just before, OSE really is the emperor's new clones.
PS - what is hobbistssee?
Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 01:25:20 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
The problem with your analysis is that while there are been a bewildering array of rulesets released for classic D&D like your Lion & Dragon, for the clones that seek to adhere closely to a specific edition the big sellers have been relatively stable. From 2009 to 2019 the lineup was Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC. Old School Essential is the first close clone to successfully complete with one of these three.
As for creativity, you can be as snobbish as you want but the fact that the hack that ignited this rests on open content. The fact that if you take the d20 SRD, and omit the newer mechanics, the result is but a hop and a skip from a specific classic edition. As a result, people are free to do what they want with the material including stuff like Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.
And lest everybody forget circa 2018, Gavin Norman B/X Essentials was just one more close clone. The reason why it became popular is that people saw value in it. As evidenced by the success of multiple Kickstarter over the years. And classic edition hobbistssee more value in OSE than they do for my Majestic Fantasy RPG or your Lion & Dragon.
That is OK as far as I am concerned. Doesn't impact what I do, my ability to produce the stuff I want in the form I want it, or my ability to share or sell my material. I focus instead on making the next thing I share or sell better than the previous project.
In contrast, you whine and moan about it and mock what Gavin Norman and his team do. It reeks of jealousy because you haven't achieved similar success. You have been doing this consistently every since Stuart Marshall replied "neener neener" when you were complaining about the success of OSRIC over Forward the Adventure.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-working-definition-of-the-osr/msg793856/#msg793856
Also since the links are broken here the original thread.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/old-school-rocks-retro-clones-suck/msg282499/?topicseen#msg282499
Look, Rob: OSE Basic is nothing more than a clone of B/X, just as OSE Advanced is little more than a clone of AD&D - as established upthread. As I said just before, OSE really is the emperor's new clones.
PS - what is hobbistssee?
But it's not, as anyone actually seeing it would realize. More significantly, this still misses the original point, which is the amazing success of OSE, building steam over several years and swallowing up previous contenders. This is what is most notable.
Consider this fact. DCC's recent KS for The Black Tower, which was their most successful ever, raised $450K. DCC is obviously a pretty big name these days and has a bigger brick and mortar presence than most of these games in the broader OSR sphere. Yet the OSE KS running around the same time, raised $770K for a mere reprint of boxed sets just months after it raised $290K in a KS for essentially the same material. So we're talking about over 1 million dollars here, which is pretty amazing for a small operation.
And as I noted, this is accompanied by lots of third party material being produced for it, including by Frog God, another notable name in the OSR field, hitching their wagon to OSE with the departure of Matt Finch & S&W. Furthermore, I'm seeing at more and more local gaming stores, including the one in the small town I live in.
So whether or not you like it, or want to denigrate it as "just a clone," I think it's fair to say that OSE is doing some unprecedented and impactful things in and for the OSR.
Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 01:31:48 PM
Look, Rob: OSE Basic is nothing more than a clone of B/X, just as OSE Advanced is little more than a clone of AD&D - as established upthread.
People have tried to patiently explain the appeal of Old School Essentials to you upthread. I don't why would you accept my explanation any more than you have the others.
OSE is a clone of B/X edited for clarity and with a layout that many consider superior to the original. You may prefer how the original was written, or how the original was laid out and that is fine. But other hobbyists feel it has values as evidenced by Necrotic Gnome's success with their Kickstarter.
Complaining is not going to change anything. I am not pointing this out to get you shut up. Rather to highlight the fact that with the wealth of open content and low barriers for publishing and sharing, it is all about what individual authors want to do. If you want to know why OSE was creative then ask Gavin Norman. Just like I can tell you why I wrote the Majestic Fantasy RPG and my other works.
If you feel strongly enough about it then you can make or share your own material showing the rest of us how to do it right. Despite my criticisms, I applaud the RPGPundit for taking advantage of the situation and getting his stuff out there. Still think his marketing and complaints are bullshit.
Also if you feel that the originals are not given than due, then you can blog, or use social media to promote the original and how people can get it on DriveThruRPG like here
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic
But until they get a PoD version up it will be tough to convince the general hobby to use the originals. Causal Hobbyists don't like dealing with the used market a s a rule.
Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 01:31:48 PM
PS - what is hobbistssee?
hobbyists see
Quote from: Persimmon on July 22, 2022, 12:41:19 PM
The funny thing is that all these people arguing OSE Advanced is a clone of AD&D have clearly never seen it. Is Pepsi a clone of Coke? OSE Advanced is arguably more distinct from AD&D than Pepsi from Coke, though you can see where the origins of both lay.
And yes, I own and play both AD&D & OSE Advanced and drink both Coke & Pepsi, though I prefer Coke.
Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?
Quote from: Persimmon on July 22, 2022, 01:48:53 PM
But it's not, as anyone actually seeing it would realize. More significantly, this still misses the original point, which is the amazing success of OSE, building steam over several years and swallowing up previous contenders. This is what is most notable.
Consider this fact. DCC's recent KS for The Black Tower, which was their most successful ever, raised $450K. DCC is obviously a pretty big name these days and has a bigger brick and mortar presence than most of these games in the broader OSR sphere. Yet the OSE KS running around the same time, raised $770K for a mere reprint of boxed sets just months after it raised $290K in a KS for essentially the same material. So we're talking about over 1 million dollars here, which is pretty amazing for a small operation.
Black Tower also had a 5E option which is another reason why it succeeded.
I think OSE's success is down to:
- Its superior layout and presentation. Yes, the original B/X and other retroclones had pretty good organization, certainly much better than OD&D and AD&D. But OSE is simply unmatched in the way it always puts everything you need for every class on a two-page spread, the way it lays bare the exact intended procedure for exploration and for combat, etc.
- The high quality of the official OSE adventures in both content and design, naturally pulling other people to check out the system and emulate the house style.
- Slick marketing for all its products.
- The breadth and quality of optional content like classes, both the stuff in the Advanced rules adapted from AD&D, but also the stuff in Carcass Crawler.
- The fact that all the optional content for OSE is properly B/X-ified and carefully balanced against the original classes. This is a big one: simply importing classes from AD&D yourself or using the versions from Labyrinth Lord will leave you with classes that are just better than the base classes and crowd them out. Adapting them yourself is a lot of work. The fact that Gavin has done that work for us with the usual attention to detail is valuable and people are willing to pay for it.
- The promise of the Dolmenwood setting, which looks like pound-for-pound easily one of the best settings ever.
- The relative state of other retroclones, which were some combination of old and without all that much ongoing first-party support (LL) or in flux and with an even more confusing product line than OSE (S&W).
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?
Yes.
Basically the success of Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition and OSE Advanced reflect the fact that back in the day most folks were using AD&D stuff with B/X style rules. The popularity of that combination continues to the present.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?
Labyrinth Lord AEC adds the 1e classes and the race/class split, so it's basically 1e character options but using the B/X mechanics. It's said that a comparable AEC character is weaker than its 1e counterpart.
OSE Advanced makes the 1e classes/races into proper B/X classes, including race-as-class. So you've got like Rangers, Paladins, Assassins, etc. which by default are human. You also have classes for like Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Gnome, etc. OSE also has optional rules to split race and class, which brings it closer to AEC.
TL;DR LL AEC is 1e characters using B/X mechanics. OSE Advanced is 1e characters converted to B/X characters.
Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?
Yes.
Basically the success of Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition and OSE Advanced reflect the fact that back in the day most folks were using AD&D stuff with B/X style rules. The popularity of that combination continues to the present.
Yes. And Greg Gillespie will be publishing his own rules set of "AD&D stuff with B/X style rules" next year.
Greetings!
OSRIC is cool. I own the book. OSE sounds cool, as well. It is good that there are retroclones and by now, extensive and detailed variants.
I own the original D&D and AD&D books, so I am not only a fan and supporter of "Old School Games"--I was there when D&D originally began. I started about 1977.
As for the retroclone and variant-game haters, they are just jealous, or fucking whining crybabies. ;D
Retroclones and new variants of the older game have revitalized the hobby, and brought new gamers into the hobby. Furthermore, the retroclones and variant games have also by their contributions and visibility, created a formidable, vibrant, and growing market-space that is an alternative to WOTC and BAIZU.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Crusader X on July 22, 2022, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?
Yes.
Basically the success of Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition and OSE Advanced reflect the fact that back in the day most folks were using AD&D stuff with B/X style rules. The popularity of that combination continues to the present.
Yes. And Greg Gillespie will be publishing his own rules set of "AD&D stuff with B/X style rules" next year.
I cannot wait for it to come out so I can plunk down cash to buy a copy. Shame he couldn't get the LL licenses.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 22, 2022, 06:09:51 PM
Quote from: Crusader X on July 22, 2022, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2022, 02:02:46 PM
Looking at it, I get the impression that OSE Advanced is a translation of AD&D "stuff"--races, classes, spells, monsters, magic items--into B/X mechanics. Doesn't Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion do something similar?
Yes.
Basically the success of Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition and OSE Advanced reflect the fact that back in the day most folks were using AD&D stuff with B/X style rules. The popularity of that combination continues to the present.
Yes. And Greg Gillespie will be publishing his own rules set of "AD&D stuff with B/X style rules" next year.
I cannot wait for it to come out so I can plunk down cash to buy a copy. Shame he couldn't get the LL licenses.
Same! Greg does good stuff. I don't know if his rules will replace B/X (via OSE) as my go-to game, but I'll definitely be checking it out.
A friend of mine left the OSE Advanced Fantasy book here several months ago, and after skimming through it again....my verdict is:
It's just another clone.
I don't wanna irritate anyone in this thread......but the layout for OSE is.....average. The art is average. It's ok, but a little dull. I just don't see anything particularly distinctive about this product. To be totally honest, I would rather just use the Basic D&D books, since the original games have superior art, superior layout, and do a better job at instructing a novice in how to play the game.
In other words, a clone is a clone is a clone. Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's fine. But I mean, come on. It's just another clone.
Quote from: estar on July 22, 2022, 01:25:20 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).
In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.
The problem with your analysis is that while there are been a bewildering array of rulesets released for classic D&D like your Lion & Dragon, for the clones that seek to adhere closely to a specific edition the big sellers have been relatively stable. From 2009 to 2019 the lineup was Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC. Old School Essential is the first close clone to successfully complete with one of these three.
As for creativity, you can be as snobbish as you want but the fact that the hack that ignited this rests on open content. The fact that if you take the d20 SRD, and omit the newer mechanics, the result is but a hop and a skip from a specific classic edition. As a result, people are free to do what they want with the material including stuff like Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.
And lest everybody forget circa 2018, Gavin Norman B/X Essentials was just one more close clone. The reason why it became popular is that people saw value in it. As evidenced by the success of multiple Kickstarter over the years. And classic edition hobbyists see more value in OSE than they do for my Majestic Fantasy RPG or your Lion & Dragon.
That is OK as far as I am concerned. Doesn't impact what I do, my ability to produce the stuff I want in the form I want it, or my ability to share or sell my material. I focus instead on making the next thing I share or sell better than the previous project.
In contrast, you whine and moan about it and mock what Gavin Norman and his team do. It reeks of jealousy because you haven't achieved similar success.
My product is exactly as successful as OSE. Platinum and Gold bestsellers.
Again, the point of this seems moot when you can get any of the TSR rulebooks from drivethru today. Though maybe Dolmenwood is good, I don't know, I've never read it or seen much about it.
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
Again, the point of this seems moot when you can get any of the TSR rulebooks from drivethru today. Though maybe Dolmenwood is good, I don't know, I've never read it or seen much about it.
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
1. A lot of people want print books, which you can get today with OSE, whereas WotC has been dragging for years on POD copies of the B/X rule books.
2. I think not having to give WotC money is a pretty strong selling point. But OSE also has a very active ecosystem of third-party adventures and supplements being published right now that are B/X compatible. YMMV on quality, but basically B/X is better supported today than it was 40 years ago.
Quote from: Crusader X on July 20, 2022, 06:44:28 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
OSE is organized better, and some rules are explained better. That's really the main selling point. Oh, and OSE adds the option to use ascending AC rather than descending AC.
There are two versions of OSE though:
OSE Classic, which is a 99.5% faithful clone of D&D B/X
OSE Advanced, which takes the D&D B/X rules and adds classes, races, monsters, and magic items from AD&D, but re-formatted to fit the D&D B/X engine
D&D B/X is my favorite RPG. Its what I'm playing right now. But at the table, I use the OSE Classic book when I need to look something up, because its easier to use. Not that the original B/X rules were difficult to use. But the OSE layout is just nicer, so it brings value to my games.
I just started an AD&D 1E campaign using just a few home rules such as ascending AC, and a few things from Unearthed Arcana.
We hadn't played AD&D 1E in many years, so I took time out to reread the DMG again.
It is terribly organized and it's my hardcopy, so I've been using Labyrinth Lord Advanced in a similar manner;
to quickly search the PDF and lookup what I need quickly at the table.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
Bingo. This is
exactly what I want. I haven't bought OSE but only because (a) I have Basic and Expert on DriveThru already and (b) have a printer up to the task of making my own hardcopies. If either weren't true I'd probably be getting OSE.
There's a broader point to be made, though: the OSE SRD completely unshackles B/X not just from WOTC but from everyone. No one has to worry if Necrotic Gnome goes off the deep end politically, in either direction, or even just start putting out low-quality crap. If that happens, we take the SRD and make our own B/X
with blackjack and hookers. Bullshit can now be treated as damage and routed around.
I would say OSE is the big boy on top. At least in presence and visually.
I won't deny it's appeal and I'm grateful if it has converted people to earlier editions but I have not seen an appealing reason to get it. And it could just be because my preferred edition is AD&D2e, which I have. And yes, while not optimal to give WotC money, my players have bought the POD of the core rules off dtrpg if they want a copy or they're free to find good deals, which are still available, on eBay or elsewhere/2nd hand market.
So hurray for Gavin, I hate Exalted Funeral though, ever since they kicked Aaron the Pedantic from their discord cause some rainbow hair felt unsafe.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
...
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
And we finally get to the real question.
With quality clones like OSE: Why would anyone willingly give WotC money?
Quote from: Jaeger on July 24, 2022, 01:05:20 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
...
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
And we finally get to the real question.
With quality clones like OSE: Why would anyone willingly give WotC money?
Because some people prefer an original (with the name brand) to a knock-off, even if the knock-off is of comparable quality.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 24, 2022, 01:12:57 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on July 24, 2022, 01:05:20 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
...
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
And we finally get to the real question.
With quality clones like OSE: Why would anyone willingly give WotC money?
Because some people prefer an original (with the name brand) to a knock-off, even if the knock-off is of comparable quality.
Eh? OSE is a better knock off of anything WotC is putting out now days.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 24, 2022, 01:12:57 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on July 24, 2022, 01:05:20 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
...
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
And we finally get to the real question.
With quality clones like OSE: Why would anyone willingly give WotC money?
Because some people prefer to fap fap fap to the woke scolds and have to apologize for bullshit microagressions from yesteryear.
Fixed your typo.
The reason I want OSR games is that D&D is overpriced. I was just at my big chain of bookstore yesterday, and D&D 5E three-book boxed set is $168.
I can get all kinds of OSR digital rulebooks for free. It's why I mentioned Basic Fantasy, which I got in paperback for $5. The shipping costs more. And it didn't need three books.
What I'm not going to agree with is the idea that Old School Essentials is the top OSR game. I'm not sure there even can be a determination which OSR game is the "best" one. They're not even based on the same D&D editions, and many have changes to the rules that the authors prefer.
That's the second reason I like OSR. I can get games that fix problems I have with D&D, even up to current 5E. I like Star Adventurer for three reasons. It's short at 35 pages, hit points don't pile up so fast, and Vancian magic with spells per day is replaced by skill check rolls and 4 hour timed cool down if you fail.
For me I wouldn't want to play an OSR that faithfully reproduced old D&D with no changes. I want rules more like how I would modify the game, and at this point there are probably several that already exist.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
Hmm....... That idea does have a certain appeal to it.
Quote from: SHARK on July 22, 2022, 05:10:48 PM
Greetings!
OSRIC is cool. I own the book. OSE sounds cool, as well. It is good that there are retroclones and by now, extensive and detailed variants.
I own the original D&D and AD&D books, so I am not only a fan and supporter of "Old School Games"--I was there when D&D originally began. I started about 1977.
As for the retroclone and variant-game haters, they are just jealous, or fucking whining crybabies. ;D
Retroclones and new variants of the older game have revitalized the hobby, and brought new gamers into the hobby. Furthermore, the retroclones and variant games have also by their contributions and visibility, created a formidable, vibrant, and growing market-space that is an alternative to WOTC and BAIZU.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I came back into the thread to basically say exactly what you did. Bollocks. But also good job for explaining it. So yeah, I do a paid GM gig for a bunch of home educated kids. I had a choice of using my beat up, dog eared, B/X books I found in a cupboard of my Dad's old belongings after he passed. Or I could use the hardback OSE Advanced I found that looked visually much more interesting and modern for a bunch of kids with low attention span. The choice was an obvious one. Maybe I would've been more of a stuck up hipster and insisted on full THAC0 decending AC hardcore stuff if this were just a casual game with friends. But these are kids. And I already insisted on 3d6 in order. These kids would never get into anything other than 5E if I didn't present it in a way so it wasn't just for sweaty grognards like myself. Now these kids are switched on to old school gaming I'm planning on running Traveller for them in the future and they seem very excited. They've become quite accustomed to hardcore and gritty campaigns. So they tell me.
I am absolutely seeing OSE lead the charge of bringing awareness towards the OSR and old school gaming. Because it's the nicest presented version of B/X and it's turning people onto more games. It turns out Mr Pundit that this could actually benefit you since people will obviously get into stuff like Lion & Dragon, Star Adventurer, and other people's games like Operation Whitebox which another group of mine is currently playing.
I don't see the appeal of OSE vs. Labyrinth Lord or S&W, but good for them. At this point, all the various retroclones are really a matter of personal preference (aka which artwork, layout and writing you prefer).
As for Old Books vs. New Books, I'm sure that a brand new printing of TSR books put into the hands of teenager would be just as good as a new printing of any retroclone. Handing teens old, worn books of course won't appeal as much in the era of mass consumerism of the new.
Yeah, getting rid of THAC0 and going with ascending armor class is a selling point for any OSR. I get that some people are nostalgic, but THAC0 was what nailed that coffin shut and reaffirmed my chosen system (Palladium Fantasy) was a sound one.
Palladium Fantasy 1e is one of the best fantasy RPGs in actual play. It's really remarkably great at the table, regardless of its wokiness on page.
Quote from: Persimmon on July 19, 2022, 10:50:09 PM
So I was recently notified by Necromancer Games (affiliated with Frog God) that they're running a new Kickstarter for conversions of the Zach Glazar adventure/setting "Whisper & Venom." What surprised me was that the conversions are for 5e and Old School Essentials. I knew that Matt Finch had broken from Frog God and decided to take Swords & Wizardry with him despite a fairly successful Swords & Wizardry KS last year that produced a digest sized boxed set along the lines of those produced by Necrotic Gnome for OSE (and inspired by the LBB of course). Not sure what prompted Finch to leave but the decision by Necromancer/Frog God to start producing material for OSE seems to be an indication that OSE is fully established as the "Top Dog" in the OSR these days. They've even indicated they're emulating OSE's module layout with the bullets points (which I don't care for myself), though the verdict is still out on digest-sizing.
As for OSE, Gavin Norman has done a great job of marketing it. He's essentially been recycling the same material in different packages for three years now yet each KS has surpassed the previous one. The most recent one surpassed $770K and all it does is re-package old material. Amazing what presentation, layout and buzz can do for you. Even my pretty mediocre FLGS carries OSE products. I like it well enough, but that's because of my love of B/X D&D and now that I have my Rules Tomes I see no need to keep buying the same material. But OSE has seemingly driven Labyrinth Lord, which used to be the game that seemed to get the most third party material, into the ground. I suspect S&W will retain its smaller niche market as should games like Hyperborea, which just released a third edition. But they just don't seem to have the mass appeal of OSE.
So what do you think? Is OSE the new champ? What OSR game has a reasonable chance of dethroning it?
Crimson Dragon Slayer D20, of course! Lol...
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 25, 2022, 08:34:18 PM
Palladium Fantasy 1e is one of the best fantasy RPGs in actual play. It's really remarkably great at the table, regardless of its wokiness on page.
Did you mean 'wonkiness'? Because I have a hard time seeing any Palladium project--especially one from the early 80s--as 'woke' ... :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 26, 2022, 07:58:58 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 25, 2022, 08:34:18 PM
Palladium Fantasy 1e is one of the best fantasy RPGs in actual play. It's really remarkably great at the table, regardless of its wokiness on page.
Did you mean 'wonkiness'? Because I have a hard time seeing any Palladium project--especially one from the early 80s--as 'woke' ... :)
It's Palladium. "Wonkiness" is just implied, right?
It's definitely not woke. It's got rules for drug use, and Ogres who reproduce using the old school method of just killing villager men and riding off with the good looking girls back to their lands.
I have the Rules Tome, and the Advanced Fantasy add-ons from the original Kickstarter. I've never used it once, though. If I'm going to run something in that vein, I'm going to run either LotFP or just straight up B/X D&D.
OSE is simply the best in OSR.
I got the OSE Tome book in PDF format, as it was on sale on Drivethru anyway.
I don't have the Original Basic/Expert set of rules anymore and I like the idea of running it again for one offs etc.
It's a fun read and IMO the PDF is formatted well enough.
The physical books in either tome or Boxed set aren't available to buy anyway, although even if they are, not sure I really need a physical copy of the rules seeing as they're so simple.
Frankly, I'm really over DnD 5E and might try and move the existing campaigns I'm running to this if I can convince the players. If I can, I'll just sell all my 5E Physical books.
I have OSE and like it a lot. I also like Advanced Labyrinth Lord and Basic Fantasy. I would say that OSE, while good, is just the flavor of the season for OSR.
I think OSE is a cool game and looks great.
The only thing that amazes me is that the current flavor of OSR is so focused in being exactly like B/X that they apparently copied the typos.
(https://gcdnb.pbrd.co/images/f02xo7JAEvzu.png?o=1)
Even if this wasn't a typo, and cook/marsh deliberately put it there to mess with out heads, we've had this game for about 40 years...
I love old school D&D, but is it unreasonable to think we could improve it even a little bit?
EDIT: wrote a full post about this sentiment.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/07/minimalist-bx-ii-skills-and-nostalgia.html
Eric Diaz, that is hilarious! Also amazing dedication.
I've looked at AD&D 1e, Basic Fantasy, and Labyrinth Lord for an answer to a question about certain monsters.
I think I used to rule this as a NO, but how do you rule this?
Can skeletons and zombies open doors?
Other "mindless" monsters?
Will those little OSE hardbacks ever lay open at the table; without one having to keep a hand on the page constantly, to try to make it lay flat?
That issue seems to worsen with increased page count, especially on smaller sized books.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 27, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
Even if this wasn't a typo, and cook/marsh deliberately put it there to mess with out heads, we've had this game for about 40 years...
Could be a copyright trap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street
See, I almost consider clones of Basic/Expert to be a distinct genre separated from White Box or Advanced 1E, and Advanced 2E.
But I would still pick Basic Fantasy over OSE. It's a set of rules that has the fixes I would want. Things like classes and races split up, or ascending armor class only.
So naturally I play neither of them and went with another OSR style game based on dice pools. Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 26, 2022, 09:38:15 PM
I would say that OSE, while good, is just the flavor of the season for OSR.
That's probably true. But it's convenient to have it all in one book (or a boxed set).
I can't really be bothered tracking down the original boxed Basic and Expert sets and the slight rules changes and optional rules are pretty good.
I recently got the Advanced OSE PDF and whilst still is a Basic DnD feel, has some optional rules that makes it feels bit more like ADnD, such as Optional rules for multiclassing, Race/Class combos etc. But I won't be using those rules.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 27, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
I think OSE is a cool game and looks great.
...
Even if this wasn't a typo, and cook/marsh deliberately put it there to mess with out heads, we've had this game for about 40 years...
I love old school D&D, but is it unreasonable to think we could improve it even a little bit?
...
I certainly don't think so. But nostalgia is powerful in RPG land.
Does old school D&D really need 2d6 for turn undead, a combination of percentile and d6 roll for thief abilities, and a d6 roll for certain race abilities, and breaking down doors?
No.
It should be straightforward enough to move most everything except combat and saving throws to a 2d6. Initiative is d6 so abilities that affect initiative stay d6.
This brings most PC abilities in-line with how morale and reaction rolls work. So you get the big linear swings of a d20 for combat and saves, the smaller linear roll of a d6 for initiative, and a more pyramidal distribution for things that the PC's are actually supposed to be
good at.
It seems a straightforward improvement on the existing system without losing the essence of what the game is trying to do.
But it will never ever be as big as a straight up clone like OSE, or Basic fantasy.
Because people like their D&D they way they like it. They don't want anything changed. If you do 'improve' anything it better be exactly the same as it was before, just better...
I have OSE for one reason to support the development of the post-apocalypse variant on a B/X chassis. For retro-rules I prefer the genuine article or S&W Complete.
If Frog God is hitching their future to that tiny assed font in their digest sized products to look like OSE, there won't be any further purchases from me. I'll wait and see what Matt does at Mythmere.
Quote from: Palleon on July 28, 2022, 06:34:19 PM
I have OSE for one reason to support the development of the post-apocalypse variant on a B/X chassis. For retro-rules I prefer the genuine article or S&W Complete.
If Frog God is hitching their future to that tiny assed font in their digest sized products to look like OSE, there won't be any further purchases from me. I'll wait and see what Matt does at Mythmere.
That's a very aggressive opinion about a font, but fair, there are some fonts I believe to be straight-up war-crimes.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 28, 2022, 05:50:34 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 27, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
I think OSE is a cool game and looks great.
...
Even if this wasn't a typo, and cook/marsh deliberately put it there to mess with out heads, we've had this game for about 40 years...
I love old school D&D, but is it unreasonable to think we could improve it even a little bit?
...
I certainly don't think so. But nostalgia is powerful in RPG land.
Does old school D&D really need 2d6 for turn undead, a combination of percentile and d6 roll for thief abilities, and a d6 roll for certain race abilities, and breaking down doors?
No.
It should be straightforward enough to move most everything except combat and saving throws to a 2d6. Initiative is d6 so abilities that affect initiative stay d6.
This brings most PC abilities in-line with how morale and reaction rolls work. So you get the big linear swings of a d20 for combat and saves, the smaller linear roll of a d6 for initiative, and a more pyramidal distribution for things that the PC's are actually supposed to be good at.
It seems a straightforward improvement on the existing system without losing the essence of what the game is trying to do.
Are there any OSR D&D-style games that currently do this?
Quote from: Jaeger on July 28, 2022, 05:50:34 PM
I certainly don't think so. But nostalgia is powerful in RPG land.
Does old school D&D really need 2d6 for turn undead, a combination of percentile and d6 roll for thief abilities, and a d6 roll for certain race abilities, and breaking down doors?
No.
It should be straightforward enough to move most everything except combat and saving throws to a 2d6. Initiative is d6 so abilities that affect initiative stay d6.
This brings most PC abilities in-line with how morale and reaction rolls work. So you get the big linear swings of a d20 for combat and saves, the smaller linear roll of a d6 for initiative, and a more pyramidal distribution for things that the PC's are actually supposed to be good at.
It seems a straightforward improvement on the existing system without losing the essence of what the game is trying to do.
But it will never ever be as big as a straight up clone like OSE, or Basic fantasy.
Because people like their D&D they way they like it. They don't want anything changed. If you do 'improve' anything it better be exactly the same as it was before, just better...
That approach will work for some people, but it is harder to do than it sounds. Mainly, because anyone willing to dig that deep into the system is going to find other things to change, that seem equally obvious to them, but not so obvious to the proposed audience. It really takes an amazing combination of huge dedication and ego to pick the exact things to change, flatly, with no apologies, mixed with the reverence for the game and humility to stop there, and then the drive to turn that into a published thing. Worse, the product produced is probably not going to be run that way at the author's table, let alone anywhere else.
The only way I can see such a product arising is through some kind of association of gamers that are in that ballpark, all running similar games with their own tweaks, and then observing where they have things in common and publishing that.
Quote from: Crusader X on July 29, 2022, 06:46:24 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on July 28, 2022, 05:50:34 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 27, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
I think OSE is a cool game and looks great.
...
Even if this wasn't a typo, and cook/marsh deliberately put it there to mess with out heads, we've had this game for about 40 years...
I love old school D&D, but is it unreasonable to think we could improve it even a little bit?
...
I certainly don't think so. But nostalgia is powerful in RPG land.
Does old school D&D really need 2d6 for turn undead, a combination of percentile and d6 roll for thief abilities, and a d6 roll for certain race abilities, and breaking down doors?
No.
It should be straightforward enough to move most everything except combat and saving throws to a 2d6. Initiative is d6 so abilities that affect initiative stay d6.
This brings most PC abilities in-line with how morale and reaction rolls work. So you get the big linear swings of a d20 for combat and saves, the smaller linear roll of a d6 for initiative, and a more pyramidal distribution for things that the PC's are actually supposed to be good at.
It seems a straightforward improvement on the existing system without losing the essence of what the game is trying to do.
Are there any OSR D&D-style games that currently do this?
I might give it a shot.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-good-clone-to-copypastemodify-sw-bfrpg/new/#new
Probably using 1d20 instead of 2d6, however.
OSE has been around long enough that the used market is beginning to have some saturation and good deals. I finally broke down and purchased the Classic Rules Tome and the Advanced Player's Tome books for the combined cost of $17 with included shipping. The books look brand new. I have had the various OSE pdfs for sometime now.
I am still looking through them, but what accompanies me to the table as a player are Print on Demand copies of Rules Cyclopedia, Dark Dungeons, and Advanced Labyrinth Lord. Right now OSE lives on the shelf with the other retro/neo clones.
Now if the books would lay flat on the table, that would help. That is where the comb bound Basic Fantasy books are nice.
Ok OSE fanboys and girls, I'll check it out for myself.
I placed an order for the Classic Fantasy Rules Tome. I want to compare B/X via OSE, to OD&D via White Box FMAG, and Holmes Basic via Blueholme Prentice. I also have the 1E AD&D Core books on hand. I've been curious about B/X, because it is the recipient of tons of nostalgic affection, online. I hope its awesome. I'm sure it probably is.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.
A little late to the party - but this is actually not a trivial point IMO. And I say this as someone who
likes the 5E rules, warts and all. (And as someone who dislikes most of WOTC's other output.)
Quote from: Jam The MF on August 13, 2022, 01:37:02 AM
I hope its awesome. I'm sure it probably is.
It is the essence of classic D&D stripped down to the essentials. Nothing more and nothing less. Whether it is the original Moldavy/Cook version or Necrotic Gnome's OSE.
In terms of D&D's design history B/X is a refinement and new presentation of OD&D + selected elements from its supplements mostly from Supplement I. OSE Classic is the above but with an outstanding layout. Then you have OSE Advanced which adds some options from the later OD&D supplement and AD&D 1e but in a form that works with B/X presentation of D&D.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?
Sure, it is "just a clone", but it is meticulously faithful to the original rules. Painfully so. What sets it apart is the layout, not the art*. The presentation and editing is so clean, exacting, and optimized for play at the table. Just looking up a monster the essential information leaps out at you with no searching through text. The GM screen is probably one of the best most useful I've seen. The form factor of the books is perfect.
It is what Mentzer's BECMI should have been.
*full disclosure, I've done art for the OSE books, but I was already a fan before Gavin commissioned me.
EDIT: never mind, I've commented on page 6.
After paging through the OSE advanced tomes coupled with all the pause it gets, I'm starting to regret my decision to buy into 5th edition...
Is OSE just objectively better than 5E?
Quote from: Monero on August 18, 2022, 02:21:21 PM
After paging through the OSE advanced tomes coupled with all the pause it gets, I'm starting to regret my decision to buy into 5th edition...
Is OSE just objectively better than 5E?
depends what you mean by "better". 5E has it's merits and usefulness as it's built off of Pathfinder which many people played but simplified.
OSE takes a different tact
Quote from: Monero on August 18, 2022, 02:21:21 PM
Is OSE just objectively better than 5E?
OSE is better:
- Fast and simple.
- Morale and reaction rules.
- Fewer useless rules and numbers.
5e is better:
- Weapons and economy in general (which isn't great in 5e TBH).
- Saves make a bit more sense.
- Number of PC options (not that they are great either).
- Streamlined d20 roll high for everything.
- Race separated from class, unified XP tables.
Mostly a matter of taste, of course.
I like both a spiced up B/X (such as my own Dark Fantasy Basic) and a simplified 5e (say, Into the Unknown).
I'm always working on stuff to bridge that gap, BTW. The next one will be out in a few days:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/08/old-school-feats-coming-soon.html
After a few days of glances between White Box FMAG (3 LBBs + the Thief Class), and OSE Classic Fantasy (1981 B/X)....
Both books are nearly the same Height and Width; however, OSE is 3 Times as Thick. More pages of detail, more situational rules, more items and pricing, more monsters, more spells, more magic items, more PC levels, etc.
White Box leaves much more unwritten, for the DM that wants to make it his or her own. OSE gives the DM more rules and content, to cover many more bases. OSE is a bigger toolbox, with more tools in it to work with. I respect both approaches.
If I understand OP question right, we're talking about Ose being the most successful and de facto reference of OSR. I cannot talk about America, but in Italy where I live IT IS. OSE is king.
The most important Italian rpg company distributes it and promote it fully at every convention. We also have Labyrinth Lord, Basic Rpg, DCC, la Marca del Este, White Box Fmag a couple Italian Osr games...but they don't really qualify by popularity.
Quote from: Murphy78 on August 21, 2022, 09:34:44 AM
If I understand OP question right, we're talking about Ose being the most successful and de facto reference of OSR. I cannot talk about America, but in Italy where I live IT IS. OSE is king.
The most important Italian rpg company distributes it and promote it fully at every convention. We also have Labyrinth Lord, Basic Rpg, DCC, la Marca del Este, White Box Fmag a couple Italian Osr games...but they don't really qualify by popularity.
If I can give an Italian perspective...here BX means nothing, because we've never seen or played it back in the days.
First rpg we saw in Italy was Becmi, between the end of the '80 and begin of the '90. The first four boxes were translated by the toy company that also licensed Monopoly and Risk: so D&D Becmi was everywhere (regular toy stores, supermarket on Christmas season etc). Becmi created the rpg market and was the single most popular rpg ever, here in Italy.
So, Ose has a lot of nostalgia boost here. You just have to promote it as "Back to the Red Box". I've seen videos of the Italian publisher promoting Ose, he was like: "Red Box-red box-redo box " while showing old Tsr B and X modules and how to play them with Ose. He also stressed how the two ribbons of the Ose Rulebook are red and blue, you know, "as a tribute to the Basic and Expert boxes".
So in Italy no other OSR game can topple Ose, for the moment.
Heck, even the Italian edition of White Box FMAG (a White Box retroclone) has in its backcover: "Before the Red Box, there was the White Box!". To promote White Box, you have to relate it somehow to the Red Box.
Quote from: Murphy78 on February 18, 2023, 06:29:40 AM
Quote from: Murphy78 on August 21, 2022, 09:34:44 AM
If I understand OP question right, we're talking about Ose being the most successful and de facto reference of OSR. I cannot talk about America, but in Italy where I live IT IS. OSE is king.
The most important Italian rpg company distributes it and promote it fully at every convention. We also have Labyrinth Lord, Basic Rpg, DCC, la Marca del Este, White Box Fmag a couple Italian Osr games...but they don't really qualify by popularity.
If I can give an Italian perspective...here BX means nothing, because we've never seen or played it back in the days.
First rpg we saw in Italy was Becmi, between the end of the '80 and begin of the '90. The first four boxes were translated by the toy company that also licensed Monopoly and Risk: so D&D Becmi was everywhere (regular toy stores, supermarket on Christmas season etc). Becmi created the rpg market and was the single most popular rpg ever, here in Italy.
So, Ose has a lot of nostalgia boost here. You just have to promote it as "Back to the Red Box". I've seen videos of the Italian publisher promoting Ose, he was like: "Red Box-red box-redo box " while showing old Tsr B and X modules and how to play them with Ose. He also stressed how the two ribbons of the Ose Rulebook are red and blue, you know, "as a tribute to the Basic and Expert boxes".
So in Italy no other OSR game can topple Ose, for the moment.
Heck, even the Italian edition of White Box FMAG (a White Box retroclone) has in its backcover: "Before the Red Box, there was the White Box!". To promote White Box, you have to relate it somehow to the Red Box.
That's some interesting context, from the market outside of North America.
OSE could be a great introduction to OSR (the art is awesome, layout's amazing, and the rules of B/X are well organized and clarified) but I'm hesitant to call them the champs.
Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 18, 2023, 07:58:23 PM
OSE could be a great introduction to OSR (the art is awesome, layout's amazing, and the rules of B/X are well organized and clarified) but I'm hesitant to call them the champs.
OSE has certainly been having its day in the sun. It's the hot ticket now. Good for them.
But before OSE; I couldn't go on the internet without seeing something about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. It was a hot commodity too, though I'm not too familiar with it? It seems like it could be fun at the table. Hot Redheads, what's not to like?
I've backed every OSE Kickstarter and have four copies of everything. Maybe three, I forget. I have all the B/X Essentials stuff multiple times over. I think my biggest issue with OSE is that the Advanced stuff isn't really that good or interesting. Advanced Labyrinth Lord does a better job of B/X-ifying AD&D stuff, honestly. And if you wanna play B/X, the original is more inspirational. If you wanna do BECMI, it fails (obviously), and you can get a POD of the Cyclopedia.
As a reference to B/X, it's the best thing ever made. As a stand-alone game...nahh
Well, the OSR as we've known it is gone anyhow. Seems like pretty much everyone, including Gavin Norman, are scrubbing IP content and releasing new, sometimes significantly different, games. And there's been a bit of disappointment over at the Necrotic Gnome site, as many folks are annoyed that the long-awaited Dolmenwood material is now going to be an entirely new game and not OSE or B/X. He's claiming compatibility, but he also said he's jettisoning race as class because newbies "find it confusing."
Whatever; I'm off the OSE train permanently now. If I can just confine myself to not getting sucked in by too many new games, I should curtail my gaming expenses considerably as I'm not investing in any of these "scrubbed" rules sets.
I own several OSE books, both box sets and the rule tomes.
I loved how they integrated AD&D into the BX ruleset, so I made my own classes, races, spells, magic items, and of course, monsters for my homebrew setting :)
I used OSE as the base for my homebrew ruleset and thanks to LULU.com, I can give my players my version of it, so they don't have to jump from the OSE book to my printed-off house rules.
Now it's all in one book! Ok, 2 books, the Players Handbook, and the Spellbook, for my setting :)
Race as Class wasn't a thing in Ad&D so we also removed it in favor of old school ad&d multiclassing.
I've never understood why people want to 1e B/X. It happened with Labyrinth Lord, it happened with OSE. If B/X is so good, why does it need all the stuff from AD&D added in?
I like B/X, but for its differences from AD&D
Quote from: JeremyR on February 19, 2023, 03:12:43 AM
I've never understood why people want to 1e B/X. It happened with Labyrinth Lord, it happened with OSE. If B/X is so good, why does it need all the stuff from AD&D added in?
I like B/X, but for its differences from AD&D
Well, I think it was to emulate the way many of us actually played in the day. We started with B/X and just bolted elements from AD&D onto it. So in that sense, I think Labyrinth Lord Advanced does it "better" than OSE, but the latter gives you something different with the B/Xification of certain things like creating racial classes for gnomes, drow, half-orcs etc. I kind of like both for different reasons. But now it doesn't matter anyhow as those kinds of retroclones are apparently dead.
I think the acceptance and status of the OSR in Europe and Asia is a fascinating topic. We know there are thriving roleplaying communities in those areas, which both overlap and differ from here in the USA. Periodically I take notice of a French rpg that pops up, but I don't have any real idea of what is going on in these other countries. (I know even less about Latin America and Africa.)
Quote from: JeremyR on February 19, 2023, 03:12:43 AM
I've never understood why people want to 1e B/X. It happened with Labyrinth Lord, it happened with OSE. If B/X is so good, why does it need all the stuff from AD&D added in?
I like B/X, but for its differences from AD&D
Well, it has ADVANCED in the title, right? I started with BECMI and of course after I discovered AD&D existed I couldn't be caught playing anything less than whatever it was the older kids were using. But I couldn't afford the books, so I just borrowed a PHB from a high school kid, read it, then made my own RPG that was whatever it was I could remember from AD&D using BECMI as a base for stats, etc. That seems like the sort of stuff everyone did. The second RPG I ever got was TMNT and of course my homebrew now had all sorts of psionic abilities and mutations. When I finally got AD&D, I had already made about four thousand iterations of my own game, so really I only used the PHB for the spell lists until I was a senior in high school, then we got serious and played AD&D by the book, hardcore mode.
That said, I do appreciate the succinctness of B/X and its implied play style. It is more "magical", more whimsical, and definitely easier overall compared to AD&D. Race-as-class is honestly superior to race/class combo for certain types of games; a LOTR game is the prototype for what B/X can do without much effort. If you're more into the pulp origins of D&D, AD&D is a better choice, which makes Gygax's claim that they are totally different games much more valid than it appears on the surface. The Known World is like a fucked up steampunk thing with all sorts of weird stuff, but it's not pulp in my mind because it has a pretty positive outlook overall.
ANYWAY, yes, they are different games. The point of Advanced Labyrinth Lord is basically to play AD&D without all the stupid nonsense no one hardly ever uses anymore. I say stupid, but I do actually like the wargaming parts of AD&D, but in play it just slows stuff down. When I was a kid it seemed like we were badasses using all those rules, but now I just want to get to the point and overly complex stuff is best left to a SFB game.
I will confess—I bought the OSE books because the smaller black volumes are really cool. Another person in my group bought them after he saw mine. Stupid, yes, but a real thing,
[/quote]
That said, I do appreciate the succinctness of B/X and its implied play style. It is more "magical", more whimsical, and definitely easier overall compared to AD&D. Race-as-class is honestly superior to race/class combo for certain types of games; a LOTR game is the prototype for what B/X can do without much effort. If you're more into the pulp origins of D&D, AD&D is a better choice, which makes Gygax's claim that they are totally different games much more valid than it appears on the surface. The Known World is like a fucked up steampunk thing with all sorts of weird stuff, but it's not pulp in my mind because it has a pretty positive outlook overall.
[/quote]
Well said, and I feel exactly the same way. For me, sometimes I want the streamlined simplicity and lighter tone of B/X. My players tend to favor it. We also really enjoy race as class and as a matter of fact, I rolled up the whole Fellowship of the Ring using B/X (OSE) rules, though we never played with them.
As for the Known World [Mystara], it is probably my all-time favorite campaign setting. I just love the rich detail one gets with the gazetteers, even though it's just plain weird sometimes with Mongols, Native Americans, desert nomads, Vikings, Byzantines, and Venetian merchants existing alongside humanoid and demi-human kingdoms. Even weirder is the fact that it basically lacks a high Medieval civilization, unless you count Karameikos, which is more Eastern European in flavor. I even collected all the fan-made stuff from Vaults of Pandius, which is pretty good, and covers the northern realms around Norwold. The only official Mystara product I never had was the "Champions of Mystara" boxed set, but now I'm contemplating it on ebay.
I just bought the OSE Tome pdf file this weekend.
I'm not planning on playing it, but since it's so popular I want to know what's the big deal.
First impressions are good, but I'm still more likely to try Basic Fantasy with some of the expansion options like more classes, or skills.
That being said, I get why OSE is popular. It is a good set of rules, only missing out because BF books are so cheap, and I dislike race as class. Or I am more likely to try weirder stuff like Star Adventurer or Shinobi and Samurai.
It is just how the OSR scene is. There are too many good games to pick from. It's great, right?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 20, 2023, 03:02:25 PM
I just bought the OSE Tome pdf file this weekend.
I'm not planning on playing it, but since it's so popular I want to know what's the big deal.
First impressions are good, but I'm still more likely to try Basic Fantasy with some of the expansion options like more classes, or skills.
That being said, I get why OSE is popular. It is a good set of rules, only missing out because BF books are so cheap, and I dislike race as class. Or I am more likely to try weirder stuff like Star Adventurer or Shinobi and Samurai.
It is just how the OSR scene is. There are too many good games to pick from. It's great, right?
Yes, the sheer number of options is great.
Up until the whole OGL tempest, it appeared to me that OSE was the current OSR clone champion. Now things will probably be up for grabs again.
Honestly though I SMH when I read about folks in recent years who prefer some variant of Basic / Expert D&D to 1e Advanced. When 1e AD&D came out I didn't know anyone who'd buy or even play one of the Basic game line rules sets. Maybe because I'm older, and my contemporaries weren't introduced to the hobby through a Basic boxed set. Sure, anecdotal, but I was part of a huge gaming community and played with up to seven different groups at a time in those years, in multiple states. Why play the version written for kids? I guess there's a nostalgia element for that generation.
I'd prefer to play an original game to a re-written clone or even a house-ruled variant. So while I'd still play the occasional OD&D game just for a lark, I play 1e AD&D for campaign-length fun by preference; but I'd never play anything on the Basic or Holmes side. As I've written many times, I like Gygax' 1e AD&D for the races, classes, alignments, even the fiddly bits like AC adjustments and psionics and all the rest. I wouldn't toss those out and play the Basic line.
Many of the recent OSR clones may be based on a non-1e chassis, but if I play them it's because they bring something really new to the table. I'm thinking of things like LotFP, Ghastly Affair, Mad Monks of Kwantoom, Apes Victorious or Warriors of the Red Planet.
I acknowledge the effort to play old-school and not give Hasbro any money. Great sentiment. But I teach players 1e AD&D, and provide them with the reference material they need. If some of those folks wanted to move on to recruiting their own players and running their own campaigns, and thought a retro-clone would be a good option, I'd steer them towards a true 1e AD&D clone for all the practical reasons folks have touched on.
But not a Basic clone. SMH.
I wrote a comparison of "Basic" clones here. TBH, I think games such as, say, LotFP are more interesting, as they at least try to fix some B/X mistakes.
OSE advanced is another beast. I think it is a great game in the sense that has lots of options and a simple system. I do think it would work better in stronger chassis (e.g., LotFP or even LL) instead of just B/X.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/01/a-glance-at-basic-d-bx-and-some-clones.html
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 20, 2023, 03:02:25 PM
First impressions are good, but I'm still more likely to try Basic Fantasy with some of the expansion options like more classes, or skills.
BFRPG is great, and has great free supplements. Equip Emporium is a must have.
Other than that, I wrote a book ok B/X feats; the idea is allowing rangers, barbs, monks, even warlords using only the four basic classes. And it has rules for class separated from race. Works with OSE, BFRPG, LL, etc.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/01/a-glance-at-basic-d-bx-and-some-clones.html
(I hope you guys don't mind me pimping my stuff again - I mentioned it six months ago, when it was only an idea).
Quote from: Baron on February 24, 2023, 06:21:17 PM
Honestly though I SMH when I read about folks in recent years who prefer some variant of Basic / Expert D&D to 1e Advanced, though. When 1e AD&D came out I didn't know anyone who'd buy or even play one of the Basic game line rules sets. Maybe because I'm older, and my contemporaries weren't introduced to the hobby through a Basic boxed set. Sure, anecdotal, but I was part of a huge gaming community and played with up to seven different groups at a time in those years, in multiple states. Why play the version written for kids?
I thought like that when I was fourteen, too.
I mean, at the end of the day, OSE is quite literally just BX D&D. It all depends on if you like BX (which I do). If you do, you will, if you don't, you won't.
Quote from: Baron on February 24, 2023, 06:21:17 PM
Up until the whole OGL tempest, it appeared to me that OSE was the current OSR clone champion. Now things will probably be up for grabs again.
Honestly though I SMH when I read about folks in recent years who prefer some variant of Basic / Expert D&D to 1e Advanced, though. When 1e AD&D came out I didn't know anyone who'd buy or even play one of the Basic game line rules sets. Maybe because I'm older, and my contemporaries weren't introduced to the hobby through a Basic boxed set. Sure, anecdotal, but I was part of a huge gaming community and played with up to seven different groups at a time in those years, in multiple states. Why play the version written for kids? I guess there's a nostalgia element for that generation.
I'd prefer to play an original game to a re-written clone or even a house-ruled variant. So while I'd still play the occasional OD&D game just for a lark, I play 1e AD&D for campaign-length fun by preference; but I'd never play anything on the Basic or Holmes side. As I've written many times, I like Gygax' 1e AD&D for the races, classes, alignments, even the fiddly bits like AC adjustments and psionics and all the rest. I wouldn't toss those out and play the Basic line.
Many of the recent OSR clones may be based on a non-1e chassis, but if I play them it's because they bring something really new to the table. I'm thinking of things like LotFP, Ghastly Affair, Mad Monks of Kwantoom, Apes Victorious or Warriors of the Red Planet.
I acknowledge the effort to play old-school and not give Hasbro any money. Great sentiment. But I teach players 1e AD&D, and provide them with the reference material they need. If some of those folks wanted to move on to recruiting their own players and running their own campaigns, and thought a retro-clone would be a good option, I'd steer them towards a true 1e AD&D clone for all the practical reasons folks have touched on.
But not a Basic clone. SMH.
I started in the mid-80s and pretty much everyone I knew read the Red Mentzer boxed set even if their ultimate intention was to play AD&D. I believe my introduction to D&D was basic, but I was young and only saw things from the player side of the screen (I do recall the module looked like a basic module but could be wrong). Mostly by 1990 the groups I was in all used AD&D 2E. But there was still a substantial fanbase for basic, and the rules cyclopedia in particular. We had one GM in my high school who strictly ran D&D using the rules cyclopedia. I also remember joining a game with some seniors who I normally didn't play with, who used basic as well.
Quote from: S'mon on February 25, 2023, 06:00:29 AM
Quote from: Baron on February 24, 2023, 06:21:17 PM
Honestly though I SMH when I read about folks in recent years who prefer some variant of Basic / Expert D&D to 1e Advanced, though. When 1e AD&D came out I didn't know anyone who'd buy or even play one of the Basic game line rules sets. Maybe because I'm older, and my contemporaries weren't introduced to the hobby through a Basic boxed set. Sure, anecdotal, but I was part of a huge gaming community and played with up to seven different groups at a time in those years, in multiple states. Why play the version written for kids?
I thought like that when I was fourteen, too.
My point exactly. I was in my twenties.
I purchased the OSE Classic Fantasy Rules Tome; specifically because I wanted to own BX in a hardcover, and to compare it directly to 1E AD&D.
Personally, I also love the handy, digest-sized books.
As for the AD&D/BECMI divide, where I grew up, it was probably about a 75/25 split in favor of AD&D. I had one friend who was way into BECMI so we always played that. When the gazetteers started coming out, I got them all, and through most of college that was my primary game. In the 90s, during grad school I switched to MERP & CoC and ran those with a few exceptions until around 2001. Then it was back into AD&D & some BECMI & WHFRP 2e. Finally learned about the OSR in 2016.
But it is rather interesting to see how B/X-derivatives came to be so huge in the OSR market when a lot of the evidence suggests that AD&D was the "bigger" game back in the day. Not sure what the actual sales figures were as the places I shopped always had both.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 25, 2023, 04:06:27 PM
But it is rather interesting to see how B/X-derivatives came to be so huge in the OSR market when a lot of the evidence suggests that AD&D was the "bigger" game back in the day. Not sure what the actual sales figures were as the places I shopped always had both.
Usage of AD&D and preference for exactly AD&D are not quite inline. There's at least 4 broad camps:
- Thought AD&D added rules and options in all the right places.
- Thought some of the AD&D rules and options were great, others not so much, but it merged with a B/X game alright.
- Still preferred B/X, but there was some bits and pieces of AD&D to port over.
- No thank you, B/X is the preference.
That's not even taking into account those who got it because it was the latest thing, or because of those nifty covers, or only because of the monster selection. Or liked a specific setting and went with the default rules for it. Let alone those who started in one of those categories and ended up in another, maybe with stops in a third along the way. :D
I've probably had some form of D&D as my first choice for most of my campaigns somewhere between 60% to 80% of the campaigns that got pitched to players as something I'd seriously consider doing. (That doesn't map to hours prepared and played, because some of the non-D&D stuff has run a long time.) D&D is pretty well centered for what I want to run. Yet, I don't ever recall a single campaign where the rule set was a perfect fit. There were times when I'd just ignore the parts that didn't fit as more trouble to change than to gloss over, but I was still aware that they didn't fit. I suspect I'm far from alone in that experience.
I got OSE (both Classic Fantasy and Advanced Fantasy) after watching the YouTube channel, 3d6 Down the Line. They did a campaign through the Dolmenwood, which I quite enjoyed), and are currently running through The Halls of Arden Vul. They use the OSE advanced rules, with, I think, some house rules that the DM created.
It was the Dolmenwood setting that drew me in, with its goat people and strange beers and unappetizing cheeses. It had its own setting specific classes like friar and hunter. There are saints days and bonuses to your character depending on his birthday. Unfortunately, none of the products available for sale right now includes this stuff. I saw someone upthread mention that Dolmenwood was being changed to its own game.
The appeal of B/X style rules is the simplicity. It may "be for kids", but, ironically, I don't have the time, now, to dig into AD&D to learn the rules properly or to create adventures and run them. I use the Moldvay rules or the Rules Cyclopedia whenever I do get a chance to play with the tax deductions. They are simple to learn and run, and they are the only set of rules that I know that have step-by-step instructions for building a dungeon.
Quote from: cavalier973 on March 01, 2023, 07:19:48 AMt may "be for kids"
Nahh, that's some crap we came up with when we moved to AD&D and told everyone else still playing B/X or BECMI they were playing a baby game.
I think that if Drive-Thru would make Basic and Expert D&D Print-on-Demand the retroclones would not be as popular.
I got OSE because I wanted OSR and it checked all the right boxes. I am sure there are other good OSR books out there, but OSE just hit the spot for me.
I dislike digest-sized books, gaps in layout, and internally inconsistent art.
Quote from: Timothe on April 02, 2023, 08:11:10 AM
I think that if Drive-Thru would make Basic and Expert D&D Print-on-Demand the retroclones would not be as popular.
I have never understood the appeal of retroclones. Something that offers something significantly different, sure. But not just retyping someone else's work. And I can make my own house rule tweaks.
OTOH, the original point was so you could publish adventures and settings and label them "compatible with OSRIC," instead of risking corporate wrath. I understand that too. But you only need one retroclone to allow for publishing.
To each their own. <shrug>
Quote from: Baron on April 02, 2023, 10:19:22 PM
Quote from: Timothe on April 02, 2023, 08:11:10 AM
I think that if Drive-Thru would make Basic and Expert D&D Print-on-Demand the retroclones would not be as popular.
I have never understood the appeal of retroclones. Something that offers something significantly different, sure. But not just retyping someone else's work. And I can make my own house rule tweaks.
OTOH, the original point was so you could publish adventures and settings and label them "compatible with OSRIC," instead of risking corporate wrath. I understand that too. But you only need one retroclone to allow for publishing.
To each their own. <shrug>
I would say, convenience, formatting, and organization play a major role. For example, I like having B/X together in one digest-sized book. Easy to access charts makes it even better. Hence the appeal of OSE for me.
With Swords & Wizardry, you get it all in one book, with a few other conveniences and changes, like the single saving throw. Hell, even having XP with the monster stat blocks is an improvement over AD&D.
On the other hand, I find OSRIC badly written and poorly organized and presented. So I prefer my original AD&D books over that.
Quote from: Gegilles on April 02, 2023, 10:13:13 PM
I dislike digest-sized books, gaps in layout, and internally inconsistent art.
Are you still going to release your own game and if so, when?
Quote from: Baron on April 02, 2023, 10:19:22 PM
I have never understood the appeal of retroclones. Something that offers something significantly different, sure. But not just retyping someone else's work. And I can make my own house rule tweaks.
For me I got OSE because its all of the rules in one place, put together nicely and well explained.
AD&D 1st edition was horrible because it was so poorly laid out. I would rather spend the money on a well put together retroclone then use old poorly laid out material. Makes things easier.
Quote from: Gegilles on April 02, 2023, 10:13:13 PM
I dislike digest-sized books, gaps in layout, and internally inconsistent art.
When it was called still B/X Essentials, it was a fantastic resource for playing B/X; basically a reference. Then they added all that fucking art and padded the books to such a degree it's obnoxious. While the digest sized doesn't bother me, all that damn superfluous art certainly does. Like do you really need a two-page full-color picture depicting some dude selling gems?
This is the logic of a player not a designer.
Quote from: Baron on April 02, 2023, 10:19:22 PM
Quote from: Timothe on April 02, 2023, 08:11:10 AM
I think that if Drive-Thru would make Basic and Expert D&D Print-on-Demand the retroclones would not be as popular.
I have never understood the appeal of retroclones. Something that offers something significantly different, sure. But not just retyping someone else's work. And I can make my own house rule tweaks.
OTOH, the original point was so you could publish adventures and settings and label them "compatible with OSRIC," instead of risking corporate wrath. I understand that too. But you only need one retroclone to allow for publishing.
To each their own. <shrug>
Let's just be honest, the art is dreadful.
There is no internal consistency. The art does not reflect the game style or game play.
I hate 4E, but the art reflects how the game is supposed to be played.
This is not, in any way, a slight on the guys, I think they are great and have done a good job forwarding OSR gaming.
Quote from: Brad on April 03, 2023, 09:28:02 AM
Quote from: Gegilles on April 02, 2023, 10:13:13 PM
I dislike digest-sized books, gaps in layout, and internally inconsistent art.
When it was called still B/X Essentials, it was a fantastic resource for playing B/X; basically a reference. Then they added all that fucking art and padded the books to such a degree it's obnoxious. While the digest sized doesn't bother me, all that damn superfluous art certainly does. Like do you really need a two-page full-color picture depicting some dude selling gems?
Quote from: Brad on April 03, 2023, 09:28:02 AM
Quote from: Gegilles on April 02, 2023, 10:13:13 PM
I dislike digest-sized books, gaps in layout, and internally inconsistent art.
When it was called still B/X Essentials, it was a fantastic resource for playing B/X; basically a reference. Then they added all that fucking art and padded the books to such a degree it's obnoxious. While the digest sized doesn't bother me, all that damn superfluous art certainly does. Like do you really need a two-page full-color picture depicting some dude selling gems?
I'm mixed on the OSE art, but what is off-putting (and rather amazing) is how Gavin has managed to just keep re-packaging the same product for a decade and it sells out every time. Different covers, boxed sets, five little books vs. the rules tome, etc. I have the Classic Fantasy Rules Tome and the two Advanced Fantasy Rules tomes. But I don't think I'll ever need another iteration of OSE. But somehow he just keeps churning out variant versions and raising increasingly greater sums on KS, which is what prompted this thread in the first place.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 09:22:56 AM
Quote from: Baron on April 02, 2023, 10:19:22 PM
I have never understood the appeal of retroclones. Something that offers something significantly different, sure. But not just retyping someone else's work. And I can make my own house rule tweaks.
AD&D 1st edition was horrible because it was so poorly laid out.
You take that back! >:(
I'm kidding...
maybe.
Quote from: blackstone on April 03, 2023, 10:42:02 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 09:22:56 AM
Quote from: Baron on April 02, 2023, 10:19:22 PM
I have never understood the appeal of retroclones. Something that offers something significantly different, sure. But not just retyping someone else's work. And I can make my own house rule tweaks.
AD&D 1st edition was horrible because it was so poorly laid out.
You take that back! >:(
I'm kidding...
maybe.
This is a funny complaint, because I can't stand OSRIC due to its crappy layout and presentation, which some folks inexplicably praise. But AD&D makes perfect sense to me, probably because I learned it as a kid. We just taught each other as different kids in our gaming circle picked up the books and we figured out how to do it.
OSRIC was intended as a ruleset to publish from, not a table gaming book.
Quote from: blackstone on April 03, 2023, 10:42:02 AM
You take that back! >:(
I'm kidding...
maybe.
The fact that character options weren't all in the PHB but you actually had to consult the DM's handbook just to finish your character. That's pretty bad.
But then, people talk how bad Gary Gygax's organizational skills were. Made great stuff, but like every human he had flaws.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:33:22 PM
Quote from: blackstone on April 03, 2023, 10:42:02 AM
You take that back! >:(
I'm kidding...
maybe.
The fact that character options weren't all in the PHB but you actually had to consult the DM's handbook just to finish your character. That's pretty bad.
But then, people talk how bad Gary Gygax's organizational skills were. Made great stuff, but like every human he had flaws.
I assume you mean the saving throws & combat matrices? Pretty much everything else is in the PHB. For me, the annoying thing was having the monster XP charts in the DMG, not the Monster Manual. And the xp per HP thing, which C&C has kept, was one change I really liked with later editions and retroclones. That really bogs things down. But remember, the point was to spread the game out into 3 books.
But yeah, as I've stated frequently around here, my overwhelming preference these days is for everything in one book and I don't care how thick it is. Hence, when Hyperborea released a new edition in two volumes, I checked out.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 03, 2023, 12:54:25 PM
I assume you mean the saving throws & combat matrices? Pretty much everything else is in the PHB. For me, the annoying thing was having the monster XP charts in the DMG, not the Monster Manual. And the xp per HP thing, which C&C has kept, was one change I really liked with later editions and retroclones. That really bogs things down. But remember, the point was to spread the game out into 3 books.
But yeah, as I've stated frequently around here, my overwhelming preference these days is for everything in one book and I don't care how thick it is. Hence, when Hyperborea released a new edition in two volumes, I checked out.
Yep, I agree. These days I want things in one place so I can waste less time finding things and more time gaming.