Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 27, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
I think OSE is a cool game and looks great.
...
Even if this wasn't a typo, and cook/marsh deliberately put it there to mess with out heads, we've had this game for about 40 years...

I love old school D&D, but is it unreasonable to think we could improve it even a little bit?
...

I certainly don't think so. But nostalgia is powerful in RPG land.

Does old school D&D really need 2d6 for turn undead, a combination of percentile and d6 roll for thief abilities, and a d6 roll for certain race abilities, and breaking down doors?

No.

It should be straightforward enough to move most everything except combat and saving throws to a 2d6. Initiative is d6 so abilities that affect initiative stay d6.

This brings most PC abilities in-line with how morale and reaction rolls work. So you get the big linear swings of a d20 for combat and saves, the smaller linear roll of a d6 for initiative, and a more pyramidal distribution for things that the PC's are actually supposed to be good at.

It seems a straightforward improvement on the existing system without losing the essence of what the game is trying to do.

But it will never ever be as big as a straight up clone like OSE, or Basic fantasy.

Because people like their D&D they way they like it. They don't want anything changed. If you do 'improve' anything it better be exactly the same as it was before, just better...

I have OSE for one reason to support the development of the post-apocalypse variant on a B/X chassis.  For retro-rules I prefer the genuine article or S&W Complete.

If Frog God is hitching their future to that tiny assed font in their digest sized products to look like OSE, there won't be any further purchases from me.  I'll wait and see what Matt does at Mythmere.

Quote from: Palleon on July 28, 2022, 06:34:19 PM
I have OSE for one reason to support the development of the post-apocalypse variant on a B/X chassis.  For retro-rules I prefer the genuine article or S&W Complete.

If Frog God is hitching their future to that tiny assed font in their digest sized products to look like OSE, there won't be any further purchases from me.  I'll wait and see what Matt does at Mythmere.

     That's a very aggressive opinion about a font, but fair, there are some fonts I believe to be straight-up war-crimes. 

Quote from: Jaeger on July 28, 2022, 05:50:34 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 27, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
I think OSE is a cool game and looks great.
...
Even if this wasn't a typo, and cook/marsh deliberately put it there to mess with out heads, we've had this game for about 40 years...

I love old school D&D, but is it unreasonable to think we could improve it even a little bit?
...

I certainly don't think so. But nostalgia is powerful in RPG land.

Does old school D&D really need 2d6 for turn undead, a combination of percentile and d6 roll for thief abilities, and a d6 roll for certain race abilities, and breaking down doors?

No.

It should be straightforward enough to move most everything except combat and saving throws to a 2d6. Initiative is d6 so abilities that affect initiative stay d6.

This brings most PC abilities in-line with how morale and reaction rolls work. So you get the big linear swings of a d20 for combat and saves, the smaller linear roll of a d6 for initiative, and a more pyramidal distribution for things that the PC's are actually supposed to be good at.

It seems a straightforward improvement on the existing system without losing the essence of what the game is trying to do.

Are there any OSR D&D-style games that currently do this?

Quote from: Jaeger on July 28, 2022, 05:50:34 PM

I certainly don't think so. But nostalgia is powerful in RPG land.

Does old school D&D really need 2d6 for turn undead, a combination of percentile and d6 roll for thief abilities, and a d6 roll for certain race abilities, and breaking down doors?

No.

It should be straightforward enough to move most everything except combat and saving throws to a 2d6. Initiative is d6 so abilities that affect initiative stay d6.

This brings most PC abilities in-line with how morale and reaction rolls work. So you get the big linear swings of a d20 for combat and saves, the smaller linear roll of a d6 for initiative, and a more pyramidal distribution for things that the PC's are actually supposed to be good at.

It seems a straightforward improvement on the existing system without losing the essence of what the game is trying to do.

But it will never ever be as big as a straight up clone like OSE, or Basic fantasy.

Because people like their D&D they way they like it. They don't want anything changed. If you do 'improve' anything it better be exactly the same as it was before, just better...

That approach will work for some people, but it is harder to do than it sounds.  Mainly, because anyone willing to dig that deep into the system is going to find other things to change, that seem equally obvious to them, but not so obvious to the proposed audience.  It really takes an amazing combination of huge dedication and ego to pick the exact things to change, flatly, with no apologies, mixed with the reverence for the game and humility to stop there, and then the drive to turn that into a published thing.  Worse, the product produced is probably not going to be run that way at the author's table, let alone anywhere else.

The only way I can see such a product arising is through some kind of association of gamers that are in that ballpark, all running similar games with their own tweaks, and then observing where they have things in common and publishing that. 

Quote from: Crusader X on July 29, 2022, 06:46:24 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on July 28, 2022, 05:50:34 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 27, 2022, 10:34:12 AM
I think OSE is a cool game and looks great.
...
Even if this wasn't a typo, and cook/marsh deliberately put it there to mess with out heads, we've had this game for about 40 years...

I love old school D&D, but is it unreasonable to think we could improve it even a little bit?
...

I certainly don't think so. But nostalgia is powerful in RPG land.

Does old school D&D really need 2d6 for turn undead, a combination of percentile and d6 roll for thief abilities, and a d6 roll for certain race abilities, and breaking down doors?

No.

It should be straightforward enough to move most everything except combat and saving throws to a 2d6. Initiative is d6 so abilities that affect initiative stay d6.

This brings most PC abilities in-line with how morale and reaction rolls work. So you get the big linear swings of a d20 for combat and saves, the smaller linear roll of a d6 for initiative, and a more pyramidal distribution for things that the PC's are actually supposed to be good at.

It seems a straightforward improvement on the existing system without losing the essence of what the game is trying to do.

Are there any OSR D&D-style games that currently do this?

I might give it a shot.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/a-good-clone-to-copypastemodify-sw-bfrpg/new/#new

Probably using 1d20 instead of 2d6, however.

OSE has been around long enough that the used market is beginning to have some saturation and good deals.  I finally broke down and purchased the Classic Rules Tome and the Advanced Player's Tome books for the combined cost of $17 with included shipping.  The books look brand new.  I have had the various OSE pdfs for sometime now.

I am still looking through them, but what accompanies me to the table as a player are Print on Demand copies of Rules Cyclopedia, Dark Dungeons, and Advanced Labyrinth Lord.  Right now OSE lives on the shelf with the other retro/neo clones.

Now if the books would lay flat on the table, that would help.  That is where the comb bound Basic Fantasy books are nice.

Ok OSE fanboys and girls, I'll check it out for myself. 

I placed an order for the Classic Fantasy Rules Tome.  I want to compare B/X via OSE, to OD&D via White Box FMAG, and Holmes Basic via Blueholme Prentice.  I also have the 1E AD&D Core books on hand.  I've been curious about B/X, because it is the recipient of tons of nostalgic affection, online.  I hope its awesome.  I'm sure it probably is.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 04:49:14 PM
I can think of only one good reason to buy Clone games in 2022: if you want the old D&D rules but don't want to give Wizards of the Coast your money.

A little late to the party - but this is actually not a trivial point IMO. And I say this as someone who likes the 5E rules, warts and all. (And as someone who dislikes most of WOTC's other output.)

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 13, 2022, 01:37:02 AM
I hope its awesome.  I'm sure it probably is.

It is the essence of classic D&D stripped down to the essentials. Nothing more and nothing less. Whether it is the original Moldavy/Cook version or Necrotic Gnome's OSE.

In terms of D&D's design history B/X is a refinement and new presentation of OD&D + selected elements from its supplements mostly from Supplement I. OSE Classic is the above but with an outstanding layout. Then you have OSE Advanced which adds some options from the later OD&D supplement and AD&D 1e but in a form that works with B/X presentation of D&D.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

Sure, it is "just a clone", but it is meticulously faithful to the original rules. Painfully so. What sets it apart is the layout, not the art*. The presentation and editing is so clean, exacting, and optimized for play at the table. Just looking up a monster the essential information leaps out at you with no searching through text. The GM screen is probably one of the best most useful I've seen. The form factor of the books is perfect.

It is what Mentzer's BECMI should have been.


*full disclosure, I've done art for the OSE books, but I was already a fan before Gavin commissioned me.

EDIT: never mind, I've commented on page 6.

After paging through the OSE advanced tomes coupled with all the pause it gets, I'm starting to regret my decision to buy into 5th edition...

Is OSE just objectively better than 5E?

Quote from: Monero on August 18, 2022, 02:21:21 PM
After paging through the OSE advanced tomes coupled with all the pause it gets, I'm starting to regret my decision to buy into 5th edition...

Is OSE just objectively better than 5E?

depends what you mean by "better".  5E has it's merits and usefulness as it's built off of Pathfinder which many people played but simplified.

OSE takes a different tact

Quote from: Monero on August 18, 2022, 02:21:21 PM
Is OSE just objectively better than 5E?

OSE is better:

- Fast and simple.
- Morale and reaction rules.
- Fewer useless rules and numbers.

5e is better:

- Weapons and economy in general (which isn't great in 5e TBH).
- Saves make a bit more sense.
- Number of PC options (not that they are great either).
- Streamlined d20 roll high for everything.
- Race separated from class, unified XP tables.

Mostly a matter of taste, of course.

I like both a spiced up B/X (such as my own Dark Fantasy Basic) and a simplified 5e (say, Into the Unknown).

I'm always working on stuff to bridge that gap, BTW. The next one will be out in a few days:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/08/old-school-feats-coming-soon.html