Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM

Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version.  That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it.  This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others.  Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there.  They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes.  And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.

This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D.  Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.

So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten.  It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.

So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.

Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post.  Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone.  Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X.  This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.

P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.

As I said. Clone.

Look, how badly organised or hard to understand was BX in the first place? Answer: not very. OSE seeks to meet a false need; it's for consoomer product fetishicists with feeble imaginations and limited reading skills.

Quote from: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 01:59:05 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM

Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version.  That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it.  This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others.  Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there.  They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes.  And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.

This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D.  Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.

So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten.  It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.

So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.

Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post.  Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone.  Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X.  This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.

P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.

As I said. Clone.

To clone something is to copy something exactly you disingenuous cunt. OSE Advanced is objectively not a clone because it has Advanced Rules that were CHANGED (ie not taken verbatim) and adapted to B/X. It did not clone any rules from AD&D. It adapted and changed them. Stop splitting hairs when you are so completely wrong you could be a Twitter fact checker. OSE on it's own is a retroclone of B/X. Fine. But Advanced OSE adds new rules THAT WERE NOT PRESENT in either B/X or AD&D.

Quote from: King Tyranno on July 22, 2022, 06:01:54 AM

Quote from: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 01:59:05 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM

Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version.  That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it.  This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others.  Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there.  They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes.  And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.

This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D.  Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.

So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten.  It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.

So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.

Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post.  Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone.  Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X.  This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.

P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.

As I said. Clone.

To clone something is to copy something exactly you disingenuous cunt. OSE Advanced is objectively not a clone because it has Advanced Rules that were CHANGED (ie not taken verbatim) and adapted to B/X. It did not clone any rules from AD&D. It adapted and changed them. Stop splitting hairs when you are so completely wrong you could be a Twitter fact checker. OSE on it's own is a retroclone of B/X. Fine. But Advanced OSE adds new rules THAT WERE NOT PRESENT in either B/X or AD&D.

Well, if it's not a clone, it's VERY similar. Who's really splitting hairs or being a disingenuous cunt?

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 06:12:19 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on July 22, 2022, 06:01:54 AM

Quote from: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 01:59:05 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM

Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version.  That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it.  This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others.  Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there.  They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes.  And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.

This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D.  Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.

So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten.  It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.

So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.

Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post.  Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone.  Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X.  This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.

P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.

As I said. Clone.

To clone something is to copy something exactly you disingenuous cunt. OSE Advanced is objectively not a clone because it has Advanced Rules that were CHANGED (ie not taken verbatim) and adapted to B/X. It did not clone any rules from AD&D. It adapted and changed them. Stop splitting hairs when you are so completely wrong you could be a Twitter fact checker. OSE on it's own is a retroclone of B/X. Fine. But Advanced OSE adds new rules THAT WERE NOT PRESENT in either B/X or AD&D.

Well, if it's not a clone, it's VERY similar. Who's really splitting hairs or being a disingenuous cunt?

I didn't start or make the argument in the first place. A wrongful statement was made. Two people responded with the correct information only to get nitpicks because there was no actual rebuttal to be found. Your gotcha is denied.

Quote from: King Tyranno on July 22, 2022, 06:15:43 AM

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 06:12:19 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on July 22, 2022, 06:01:54 AM

Quote from: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 01:59:05 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 21, 2022, 02:45:13 PM

Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version.  That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it.  This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others.  Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there.  They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes.  And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.

This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D.  Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.

So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten.  It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.

So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.

Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post.  Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone.  Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X.  This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.

P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.

As I said. Clone.

To clone something is to copy something exactly you disingenuous cunt. OSE Advanced is objectively not a clone because it has Advanced Rules that were CHANGED (ie not taken verbatim) and adapted to B/X. It did not clone any rules from AD&D. It adapted and changed them. Stop splitting hairs when you are so completely wrong you could be a Twitter fact checker. OSE on it's own is a retroclone of B/X. Fine. But Advanced OSE adds new rules THAT WERE NOT PRESENT in either B/X or AD&D.

Well, if it's not a clone, it's VERY similar. Who's really splitting hairs or being a disingenuous cunt?

I didn't start or make the argument in the first place. A wrongful statement was made. Two people responded with the correct information only to get nitpicks because there was no actual rebuttal to be found. Your gotcha is denied.

So you aren't denying they're similar?

Who cares if it's a clone?  It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans, and very easy to tack on house rules, or use old, or even current D&D and OSR supplements. 

It is bound in quality hard backs, small i. Size so you don't have to lug around 50lbs of books.

The .pdf's are included when you buy the hardback.  AND, you don't have to give money to the fascists at Drive-thru-one-bookshelf.

If you want to play original B/X your options are:
1)Use old crumbling books.
2)Buy .pdf's from Hazards of the Bro (who hate you),
3)Get ahold of the B/X Omnibus and print it out, or use the .pdf, which is not an authorized product so who knows how long it will be available. 

Gavin Norman's game at least has lots of support material.  They even have an SRD on the Necrotic Gnome website so you can see the game for yourself and decide whether or jot you want to buy it. 

It's basically the OSRIC of B/X. 

So what it if its a clone?  It does what I need it to do, and very cheaply.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone?  It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans

You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone?  It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans

You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?

They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone?  It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans, and very easy to tack on house rules, or use old, or even current D&D and OSR supplements. 

It is bound in quality hard backs, small i. Size so you don't have to lug around 50lbs of books.

The .pdf's are included when you buy the hardback.  AND, you don't have to give money to the fascists at Drive-thru-one-bookshelf.

If you want to play original B/X your options are:
1)Use old crumbling books.
2)Buy .pdf's from Hazards of the Bro (who hate you),
3)Get ahold of the B/X Omnibus and print it out, or use the .pdf, which is not an authorized product so who knows how long it will be available. 

Gavin Norman's game at least has lots of support material.  They even have an SRD on the Necrotic Gnome website so you can see the game for yourself and decide whether or jot you want to buy it. 

It's basically the OSRIC of B/X. 

So what it if its a clone?  It does what I need it to do, and very cheaply.

So just print out the SRD and use that instead of dry-humping the overpriced, overproduced shovelware you seem to fetishize so readily.

Quote from: Slambo on July 22, 2022, 11:23:02 AM

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone?  It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans

You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?

They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.

They're more than similar, though admittedly different in exactly the respects you mention.

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:28:31 AM

Quote from: Slambo on July 22, 2022, 11:23:02 AM

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone?  It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans

You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?

They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.

They're more than similar, though admittedly different in exactly the respects you mention.

Jesus christ are you Zach S' clone? You argue as circular as he does

Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 22, 2022, 11:40:58 AM

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:28:31 AM

Quote from: Slambo on July 22, 2022, 11:23:02 AM

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone?  It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans

You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?

They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.

They're more than similar, though admittedly different in exactly the respects you mention.

Jesus christ are you Zach S' clone? You argue as circular as he does

No, just similar

Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 22, 2022, 11:40:58 AM

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:28:31 AM

Quote from: Slambo on July 22, 2022, 11:23:02 AM

Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 09:09:38 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 22, 2022, 08:53:07 AM
Who cares if it's a clone?  It is well designed, easy to read, easy to find what you need, meets the needs of B/X fans and AD&D fans

You agree the Advanced rules are a clone of AD&D?

They arent they're just similar to the AD&D classes. For example Drow has never been a race class since AD&D didnt use race classes, the Knight doesnt have all the abilities of the Ad&d cavalier, and more stuff like that.

They're more than similar, though admittedly different in exactly the respects you mention.

Jesus christ are you Zach S' clone? You argue as circular as he does

My current theory is he's an old account of Battlemaster's. Account registered in 2017 but all but 3 of his posts are from the last 48 hours. Could be way off base, though.

The funny thing is that all these people arguing OSE Advanced is a clone of AD&D have clearly never seen it.  Is Pepsi a clone of Coke?  OSE Advanced is arguably more distinct from AD&D than Pepsi from Coke, though you can see where the origins of both lay.

And yes, I own and play both AD&D & OSE Advanced and drink both Coke & Pepsi, though I prefer Coke.