Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Comparing it to Mork Borg! That's fucking awful! LOL

Oh yeah, soon as some neatly laid out clone hits the market OSE will fade like LL did. The cycle will keep repeating itself.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I think they have a few things going for them:

• They've done some cleaning up of rules and, as others have mentioned, the ascending armor class as an option is a plus
• They've tossed in some 1e era options that have been retrofitted nicely
• They have a very nice presentation. I have the PDFs for the current Kickstarter printing and the two boxed sets coming
• A lot of support material that's also quite polished, also from Necrotic Gnome but also some excellent third party stuff

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

In 6 months?  That's a pretty specific assertion Pundit.  Are you aware of an upcoming release, that hasn't been announced yet?

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

If in six months someone manages to make a better laid out, organized and pretty B/X clone with lots of different expansions like OSE then I will be very impressed and then buy it. But it has to be a superior product. That doesn't just mean better or different rules. Sometimes going between multiple different B/X books to get what I need is tedious. I like games like LotFP and OSE because they shove everything in one place for convenience. And have modern layouts so they are easier to parse. That doesn't mean I won't use other games. I've got a really cool Operation Whitebox game going right now as a team of grizzled Marines explore the Underdark from the Veins of the Earth. So I am okay with clones and different games. 

Gavin does appear to be the current Anointed One among the OSR.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

I think you underestimate how many people don't want a D&D-based game, they want D&D. Just not WOTC D&D.

OSE provides that: it's the same (AFAIK up to a few rules where they had to pick one of multiple possible interpretations) rules as one of the most beloved editions of the original game, without having to pay the wokegeld.

Plus its SRD and product identity license provide legal cover to write B/X adventures.

Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version.  That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it.  This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others.  Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there.  They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes.  And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.

This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D.  Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.

So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten.  It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.

So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.

OSE is BX for hipsters.

Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version.  That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it.  This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others.  Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there.  They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes.  And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.

This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D.  Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.

So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten.  It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.

So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.

No.. Not at all. Advanced OSE is still B/X. They added some rules and advanced classes to OSE converted to the B/X format. It's not a clone of AD&D. It's it's own thing.

Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on July 20, 2022, 06:32:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 05:38:53 PM
Isn't OSE just a clone? What does it have to offer at this point, after the other dozen clones?

I'm pretty sure it's not the "champ" of anything. Each of the clones was the big thing until the next clone came out. They're all the same rules so the appeal is entirely in things like the art. OSE is no more creative than Mork Borg, in fact it's less so, and Mork Borg is garbage (I mean, OSE's rules are better, but that's because THEY'RE JUST A CLONE OF THE B/X RULES).

In six months, someone else will take the exact same rules, add a different style of layout and art, and hype the living fuck out of it, and everyone will forget OSE.

Actually, no, at least not in the Advanced version.  That is quite different from any other the other such games because it takes AD&D content and B/Xifies it.  This includes streamlining the various AD&D classes and creating a bunch of new race classes like gnomes, drow, half-elves, svirfneblin, half-orcs and others.  Or you can split race & class as in AD&D. Likewise, there are quite a few optional rules, like weapon specialization in a streamlined form, in there.  They do the same with AD&D monsters, though certain ones (dinosaurs, devils & demons) will supposedly come out later in thematic volumes.  And Gavin's doing a version of Gamma World as well, in addition to putting out a bunch of things for his own Dolmenwood setting.

This is quite a bit different from Labyrinth Lord's approach of just bolting AD&D stuff on, nor is it completely mimicking some other edition of D&D.  Sure OSE basic does that but even there its distinctive style has helped it stand out.

So, in short, I think there's enough there to suggest this isn't a flash in the pan that will be quickly eclipsed & forgotten.  It seems like each KS has roughly doubled the previous one and with more third parties jumping on the train, it just seems to be gathering more momentum.

So....it's an AD&D clone, not a B/X (or OD&D) clone? That really didn't refute Pundit's post.

Actually, if you read it, it totally refutes Pundit's post.  Because OSE Advanced is not remotely an AD&D clone.  Everything from AD&D in OSE Advanced has been changed to fit B/X.  This includes hit dice, class abilities, etc.

P.S.--Sorry Tyranno I didn't see that you had already clarified this.

OSE is a cool game and it will last for a long while.

B/X has many qualities and OSE is a better organized version, with a few added options ("advanced").

It is not my clone of choice (that would be my own clone), but it has one a combination of things (good looks, compatibly/nostalgia, and support with adventures, zines, etc.) that makes it hard to beat.

<laughs in AD&D>

Sure, Jan.

QuoteIs OSE now the Undisputed Champ of the OSR?

Dunno. I play original D&D and 1e AD&D, but I don't run the clones. I'm just not up on whatever clone has the spotlight at the moment (and don't really care). If I were to run a clone, it would probably be OSRIC (since it's basically 1e AD&D). Or I might run a clone if it had something cool or unique about the setting (especially if that is reflected in the clone's rules). Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea has a cool setting and some nice subclasses. Lion & Dragon is interesting for its "medieval authentic" spin on things. And so on. Even with those I'm more likely to just borrow what I want from them and still run the game with original D&D or 1e AD&D as its basis (whichever felt like the better fit).

For me, the main utility of clones isn't the cloned games, themselves, but rather supplements, settings, and modules that are compatible with the rules that I do actually run. The closer they are in compatibility the more likely I am to use them.

I bought both the Players (x4) and a Referee hardback and then later backed the Kickstarter for the OSE box sets.

I've shown my players both Savage worlds (we have run a few one shots in Savage Wolds) and OSE to find out which one our table is going to switch to next once our current PF2e campaign is over and OSE won.

I have been working on converting my homebrew world, classes and races over to OSE (which is very easy thing to do).   My House rule document for OSE is only a single page that mostly details which optional rule we'll be using with a few homebrew rules that will be added in like natural 20 deals max weapon die damage, using 2d6+6 for rolling up stats (8-18 range) and for starter coin (80-180 starting gold) and a few other things tied to my homebrew game world.

No one in the group has been through Barrowmaze so I'm planning on using it but changing it up for all the smaller barrows to be on various small islands with a few leading into the big underground complex

No it's not the undisputed champion of the OSR. It's just the latest OSR flavor of the year but it does nothing new except it has a much more focused presentation of rules that, IMO, makes the game flavorless. I also have zero interest in BX as it's my least favorite edition of D&D. I'd rather play 5e, but then I'd have to scrape my brain clean with a spork afterwards.