I think that the one thing later editions have that argue in their favor are more streamlined systems; less weird subsystems or wonky rules that work differently from everything else in the game.

But then, in place of that, there's shitloads of feats and special powers that complicate things.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037471But then, in place of that, there's shitloads of feats and special powers that complicate things.

And for me this is way worse than the fiddly bits of something like B/X. I couldn't stand it for 3e/4e, Pathfinder, and the like. 5e cuts it down and smoothes some of this out--but not enough for me. I had a version of D&D Next playtest version (can't remember which one) that I really enjoyed. Very straightforward and minimalist.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1036940DCC seems quite a challenge, but I could be wrong since I haven't had a chance to run it yet.

I LOVE the idea and presentation of DCC--playing it, not so much. Too fiddly for it's own good and it takes away from the game IMO.

Quote from: Eric Diaz;1037193I cannot fathom how AD&D would be easier than 5e. B/X, on the other hand...

AD&D at its core is very rules lite really. What it has though is a huge collection of situational rules that might never come into play, or might. It was a toolbox much like Gurps is, just going at it in a very different way. On the player side AD&D is even simpler.

The problem is there are people who look at all the situational rules and then bitch the game is too complex. Or who claim things like spell lists and equipment are rules too and its all just ever too much for their little brains to handle. wahh wahh wahh. Rinse repeat with the next moron.

As for "old school" theres no such thing as what people are mostly playing now is the exact same thing people were playing then. With all the variations. And back then there were attempts to "streamline" OD&D and later AD&D so you got things like Tunnels & Trolls and The Fantasy Trip amongst many many others. And also some that thought AD&D was too simple. They wanted MORE situational rules to cover every little happenstance.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037471I think that the one thing later editions have that argue in their favor are more streamlined systems; less weird subsystems or wonky rules that work differently from everything else in the game.

That might make them easier to run, but affect play not at all, provided you're playing under the original paradigm of "don't think about rules, just tell me what you want to do."

Quote from: vgunn;1037584And for me this is way worse than the fiddly bits of something like B/X. I couldn't stand it for 3e/4e, Pathfinder, and the like. 5e cuts it down and smoothes some of this out--but not enough for me. I had a version of D&D Next playtest version (can't remember which one) that I really enjoyed. Very straightforward and minimalist.

Most likely the Core Rules. One archetype for each class, no feats or Backgrounds, no crazy races, straightforward sub-classes, etc.

Quote from: vgunn;1037584And for me this is way worse than the fiddly bits of something like B/X. I couldn't stand it for 3e/4e, Pathfinder, and the like. 5e cuts it down and smoothes some of this out--but not enough for me. I had a version of D&D Next playtest version (can't remember which one) that I really enjoyed. Very straightforward and minimalist.

What are the fiddly bits of B/X for you?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1036979Show us on the doll where old school play touched your character in a bad way.

So the rest of us can line up and do it again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
And again.

Not directed at you personally OG. My first character ever died in the first monster ever presented. Red box, carrion crawler. I was about 11 years old.

[not directed at any of you, but a chant of a guild that I'm part of: Blood rains down from an angry sky, my cock rages on, my cock rages on!"]

Quote from: RPGPundit;1036934The rulebook is certainly shorter, or usually shorter (there's a few 500-page OSR rulesets, after all).  But does that mean the mechanics are actually easier?

Short answer: yes

Longer answer: There is way more reliance on referee arbitration, hence less actual rules are required to run the game smoothly. The mechanics for most old school games is basically "do whatever makes sense". Contrast this with more modern games which explicitly spell out how to do things in "meta space" like haggling or convincing NPCs to do stuff...

I think this says more about the condition of the modern gamer than anything else. The inability to do anything without explicit permission takes precedence over doing whatever is fun, which is sad, really. Whatever happened to just making up shit and having a good time?

Quote from: Brad;1037608I think this says more about the condition of the modern gamer than anything else. The inability to do anything without explicit permission takes precedence over doing whatever is fun, which is sad, really. Whatever happened to just making up shit and having a good time?

1) Hundreds of letters per month begging for more rules to pay for, by 1976.
2) The decision in 78 or 79 to market to the 11-to-14 male demographic

Quote from: Brad;1037608I think this says more about the condition of the modern gamer than anything else. The inability to do anything without explicit permission takes precedence over doing whatever is fun, which is sad, really. Whatever happened to just making up shit and having a good time?

Even more than that.  On average, the modern gamer doesn't know how to make a sensible ruling on many things, because they have little to no world experiences that would inform the ruling.  I'm willing to bet, just to pull one example at random, that 80s gamers had a higher percentage of people that had some idea of what night is like.  Everyone I played with in the 80's at some time or another had been outside, late at night, with no light source, multiple times, in various terrains and conditions of starlight, moonlight, and cloud cover.  Including the ladies.  None of us were Army Rangers, but we at least had some idea of what going through the woods at night was like.  Today, no way.

It was about the 90s when I begin to encounter people that didn't know what a cow was.  Note, not that they hadn't seen one, but didn't know what it was.  I think such a person is incapable of running any game, even a Star Wars game after having spent a decade obsessively watching the movies and having read every sourcebook and novel.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;10376101) Hundreds of letters per month begging for more rules to pay for, by 1976.
2) The decision in 78 or 79 to market to the 11-to-14 male demographic

I totally looked for you at Garycon, to no avail. I was hoping to hear some good stories.

Quote from: Brad;1037613I totally looked for you at Garycon, to no avail. I was hoping to hear some good stories.

I spent almost the entire time in the Legends of Wargaming room.

And will pretty much from now on.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1037611Even more than that.  On average, the modern gamer doesn't know how to make a sensible ruling on many things, because they have little to no world experiences that would inform the ruling.  I'm willing to bet, just to pull one example at random, that 80s gamers had a higher percentage of people that had some idea of what night is like.  Everyone I played with in the 80's at some time or another had been outside, late at night, with no light source, multiple times, in various terrains and conditions of starlight, moonlight, and cloud cover.  Including the ladies.  None of us were Army Rangers, but we at least had some idea of what going through the woods at night was like.  Today, no way.

It was about the 90s when I begin to encounter people that didn't know what a cow was.  Note, not that they hadn't seen one, but didn't know what it was.  I think such a person is incapable of running any game, even a Star Wars game after having spent a decade obsessively watching the movies and having read every sourcebook and novel.

What

Quote from: vgunn;1037587I LOVE the idea and presentation of DCC--playing it, not so much. Too fiddly for it's own good and it takes away from the game IMO.

What about it do you find "fiddly"?