Something that is largely ignored in rpg settings (except Shadowrun) is the effect of music on culture. Bards may be mentioned, but there is nothing even close to an Elvis or the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or Hank Williams in most settings. I'm not sure if this is just a modern phenomena, but it seems like it should have more of a presence in games.
(Also, RIP George Jones, yet another massively important cultural influence).
There is more artists and groups that is or has been as influential as those few you mentioned, but also really tons of artists and groups that may not have been as influential, but still important for culture.
As for the general lack of them, ... well, after reading "Order of the Stick", i half-jokingly blame it on D&D's original use of Bards ...
Joking aside, one has to think about the crude and fully incorrect use of the word "race" in a lot of fantasy-settings, probably due to the ... ehrm ... "southafrican origin" of Tolkien.
No, i'm not interested in bashing here, i just think that legacy is important when viewing the worlds in Fantasy.
Why?
Rock comes from blues, and blues came from ... was it "Negro spirituals" they were called .. ? I have no idea what they may be called today, if they are called something different.
My point is, "rock" in D&D, along with those who played it early on, would probably have come from Orcs.
Also, that would have messed up the whole idea with the D&D-style Alignments ....
And we can't have that now, can we?
Anyway, Worlds that do not have the "Tolkien-legacy" i mentioned before, should have no problem having artists and groups that perform to the pleasure of onlookers.
So, why do they seem to lack in that area ever-so often, too?
I'd have to say Literature.
How often is artists of importance really described in Sci-fi and Fantasy?
... Not very often.
I agree about the importance of music.
I have an unpublished RPG that won the PolyCon game design award called Goreblade: Heavy Metal Roleplaying where in addition to roaming the world kicking ass, you could also be a metal band performing concerts and creating mosh pits. In addition to your class, you could also pick an instrument or vocals. If you wanted more combat features instead, that was cool because every band needs guards and roadies.
My OD&D games feature minstrels, singers and dancers, but they are NPCs usually in the background unless there is the cliche bard and his tales of high adventure.
I am toying with making an OSR Bard for my OD&D games, but I am unsure what I am going to do since I don't use Thieves. I do use Psionics so maybe the route will be Psionic + Fighter + Magic-User before they become "true bards" for their remaining levels (my OD&D maxes at 10).
When we talk about popular bands/performers in the modern era, it's important to acknowledge the importance of recording technology. If exposure to Elvis had been limited to live performances, he'd likely never have developed a national following, let alone an international presence. I was born in 1979; without recording technology my only exposure to his music would have been from 'impersonators' who sing their rendition of his half-remembered songs.
So a standard fantasy world is unlikely to have such singular popular artists. And even if you had an Elvis in your hometown, you'd probably get tired of the same concert every Friday night. Instead of becoming a rabid one band fan, you'd crave variety. The 'wandering minstrel' concept is thus further supported.
As far as cultural attitudes toward popular music, I think it's worth considering, especially in regards to instrumentation. For example, brass instruments require a sophisticated mining/metallurgy culture, so they may be most appropriate for Dwarves. Elves may prefer string instruments and breezy woodwinds. Humans like to use instruments from many different cultures. Once you decide that Hobbtits like jug bands and hobgoblin hordes include a massive marching drum line pounding in unison, you have some interesting ideas about how music and culture impact each other.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;650011When we talk about popular bands/performers in the modern era, it's important to acknowledge the importance of recording technology. If exposure to Elvis had been limited to live performances, he'd likely never have developed a national following, let alone an international presence. I was born in 1979; without recording technology my only exposure to his music would have been from 'impersonators' who sing their rendition of his half-remembered songs.
Exactly - this is why we know nothing about the works of Thomas Tallis, or Bach, or Mozart, since after they died, no one ever played their music again.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;650015Exactly - this is why we know nothing about the works of Thomas Tallis, or Bach, or Mozart, since after they died, no one ever played their music again.
And for anyone present that doesn't understand sarcasm or that kind of irony, i'll glady translate:
Thomas Tallis, Bach, and Mozart became very wellknown/famous during their lifetime, and their works has been played long after thier deaths, too.
....
Personally, i think i remember some info that at least Mozart performed concerts here and there ....
Quote from: Catelf;649979There is more artists and groups that is or has been as influential as those few you mentioned, but also really tons of artists and groups that may not have been as influential, but still important for culture.
As for the general lack of them, ... well, after reading "Order of the Stick", i half-jokingly blame it on D&D's original use of Bards ...
Joking aside, one has to think about the crude and fully incorrect use of the word "race" in a lot of fantasy-settings, probably due to the ... ehrm ... "southafrican origin" of Tolkien.
No, i'm not interested in bashing here, i just think that legacy is important when viewing the worlds in Fantasy.
Why?
Rock comes from blues, and blues came from ... was it "Negro spirituals" they were called .. ? I have no idea what they may be called today, if they are called something different.
My point is, "rock" in D&D, along with those who played it early on, would probably have come from Orcs.
Also, that would have messed up the whole idea with the D&D-style Alignments ....
And we can't have that now, can we?
Anyway, Worlds that do not have the "Tolkien-legacy" i mentioned before, should have no problem having artists and groups that perform to the pleasure of onlookers.
So, why do they seem to lack in that area ever-so often, too?
I'd have to say Literature.
How often is artists of importance really described in Sci-fi and Fantasy?
... Not very often.
Good grief...
I try to do a bit with music in my campaign; since it's the western frontier, there's a lot of talk of banjos and mouth-harps and all that good stuff.
PCs can heal up around the campfire with sing-alongs, and characters are assumed to be proficient with one or more setting-appropriate musical instruments. It's just the nature of the setting (http://wampuscountry.blogspot.com/2012/08/booze-banjos-and-bazoul.html).
Quote from: Catelf;650033Personally, i think i remember some info that at least Mozart performed concerts here and there ....
Guys like Mozart (and Liszt, and Chopin, to name a couple others) were their day and age's rock stars, and spent a good portion of their lives touring the world (which at the time meant Continental Europe) performing to audiences.
Tallis wasn't really a rock star, though interestingly, Queen Elizabeth (I think) did grant him and Wiliam Byrd a total monopoly on printed music in Britain at the time. Which would conceivably make them the forerunners of the fucking recording industry. ;)
Bach was a church musician for most of his life, not quite rock star material himself.
Quote from: Planet Algol;650038Good grief...
I know, right? I did not know whether to cry a little or laugh loudly.
In my case, it depends on a setting - as noted, before modern technology, you had to listen to the musician to listen to the music. But I usually put a bit more famous bard here and there, when it comes to fantasy/medieval games. And of course, there was that seedy tavern/brothel in an Ancient Fantasy setting of mine, where the band was constantly playing Cantina theme...because why the hell not? It helps to enforce the seedy feel of a location.
Quote from: Rincewind1;650061I know, right? I did not know whether to cry a little or laugh loudly.
And i wonder why?
Were i wrong, overzealous, or just a bit off topic?
All in all, i consider the question an interesting one, but it haven't really played a lot of role in my games (if any at all, except for an optional side plot of a music festival once), because it hasn't really been a neccessity, + my games is usually in an "alternate modern", meaning i doesn't have to add fictive artists to the world.
Quote from: Catelf;650071And i wonder why?
Were i wrong, overzealous, or just a bit off topic?
Crazy. Stone-cold fucking crazy talk.
Quote from: Planet Algol;650095Crazy. Stone-cold fucking crazy talk.
Crazy?
Is it crazy to point out that the only darkskinned in LotR is Orcs, Goblins, and other beings that is depicted as cruel, mean and Evil, and that the reason for that easily can be traced back to the fact that Tolkien was a White Southafrican and essentially was brought up as a racist?
Is it crazy to point out that the musicstyle "rock" has its roots in "Negro Spirituals" wich was derived from the African slaves that was forced to work in the "USA"?
Is it crazy to point out, that the obvious result would be that in fantasy worlds, the Orks would have brought the seeds to Rock, or even have developed Rock themselves?
* sighs *
Well, i guess i'm crazy, then.
EDIT:
Sorry for that this exchange doesn't bring much, if anything, to the topic.
Nevermind that orcs are actually probably descendants of the Noldor tortured by Morgoth in Middle-earth.
Hey, look! Anthropoid dark-skinned bad guys! This must be a real-world allegory for black people! SOCIAL JUSTICE!
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_medf30PWlp1r6h8m0o1_400.jpg)
Quote from: Benoist;650121Nevermind that orcs are actually probably descendants of the Noldor tortured by Morgoth in Middle-earth.
Hey, look! Anthropoid dark-skinned bad guys! This must be a real-world allegory for black people! SOCIAL JUSTICE!
You just don't understand that the white southafricans looked at the darskinned as non-human cattle, do you?
Anyway, i decide to leave this sidetrack oficcially now, because i do not want to derail the topic (further).
Quote from: danbuter;649948Something that is largely ignored in rpg settings (except Shadowrun) is the effect of music on culture. Bards may be mentioned, but there is nothing even close to an Elvis or the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or Hank Williams in most settings. I'm not sure if this is just a modern phenomena, but it seems like it should have more of a presence in games.
In Merrie England, troubadours, jongleurs, waytes and so on are vitally important as they defined that age more than anything else.
In other settings, bards can be very powerful as they can cut a king down to size or talk up a minor warrior so that a whole feasting hall is chanting his name.
In a Jerry Cornelius game, Hawkwind and Motorhead would play an important part in the game.
I don't normally have something like the Rolling Stones, just because it generally isn't important to the game. Sure, there would be major composers/performers, but unless they have game-importance they don't figure.
In a modern game which is set around Special Forces/Mercenaries, would musicians play an important role? How about film stars, TV stars or celebrities? All are "important" or at least famous in the modern world, but would they have any bearing on such a game? I doubt it. A Spetsnaz-trained mercenary, though, might be far more famous in the game than any pop star.
Quote from: danbuter;649948Elvis or the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or Hank Williams
By the way, you are showing your age, I think, with these examples. :)
Quote from: Catelf;650123You just don't understand that the white southafricans looked at the darskinned as non-human cattle, do you?
You are a moron. Tolkien moved from South Africa when he was three years old.
Quote from: Catelf;650120Crazy?
Is it crazy to point out that the only darkskinned in LotR is Orcs, Goblins, and other beings that is depicted as cruel, mean and Evil, and that the reason for that easily can be traced back to the fact that Tolkien was a White Southafrican and essentially was brought up as a racist?
Is it crazy to point out that the musicstyle "rock" has its roots in "Negro Spirituals" wich was derived from the African slaves that was forced to work in the "USA"?
Is it crazy to point out, that the obvious result would be that in fantasy worlds, the Orks would have brought the seeds to Rock, or even have developed Rock themselves?
* sighs *
Well, i guess i'm crazy, then.
EDIT:
Sorry for that this exchange doesn't bring much, if anything, to the topic.
Wood Elves were also dark - skinned from what I recall. British society was far more classist than racist - there were actually clashed between British and American soldiers, when Americans were trying to throw Indians out of pubs when they were sitting in Britain for preparation for D-Day. And Tolkien, as pointed out elsewhere, was a man of a very British upbringing.
Orcs' black skin, at least to me (a mostly sane observer), was more to do with trying to make a connotation between A) a race that lived and toiled under the mountains, but in a more ruinous way than dwarves, B) a bit of an allegory about sooth and grim covered faces and C) the orcs were created in a powerful process that mangled and burned their bodies, henceforth a burnt - like quality to their bodies.
And for the music - rock isn't exactly a kind of music I imagine for a fantasy setting. But even if - going by the logic that "it was stolen from the Black Man, and White Man should pay", every black gang in US should pay for stealing the concept of organised crime to descendants of Mobs from the 30s.
WFRP orcs from 2e would be more likely to engage in Football Songs than rock. And the 1e orcs and most of typical fantasy orcs, I imagine would be more into metal or viking songs.
And yes, to bring up an issue of racism in fantasy in a thread about bloody importance of music, is either craziness, or looking for being offended. Take your pick.
PS. I'm a Polack, and Slavs were slaves to the bloody ancients back in the days where people thought Africa was a different planet.
Quote from: Benoist;650121Nevermind that orcs are actually probably descendants of the Noldor tortured by Morgoth in Middle-earth.
Hey, look! Anthropoid dark-skinned bad guys! This must be a real-world allegory for black people! SOCIAL JUSTICE!
I'm really tired of this stuff. I understand why you change Oompa Loompas skin from black to orange, since black pygmies slaving in a factory under a white chocolate fat cat...alright by me. But really, to accuse that every single black villain = racism, is just taking that whole debacle of "They were not suspended because they were caught in a fight, they were suspended because they were black!" to the next level.
Quote from: soltakss;650124In Merrie England, troubadours, jongleurs, waytes and so on are vitally important as they defined that age more than anything else.
In other settings, bards can be very powerful as they can cut a king down to size or talk up a minor warrior so that a whole feasting hall is chanting his name.
In a Jerry Cornelius game, Hawkwind and Motorhead would play an important part in the game.
I don't normally have something like the Rolling Stones, just because it generally isn't important to the game. Sure, there would be major composers/performers, but unless they have game-importance they don't figure.
In an odd ways, your post reminded me of an important issue:
Most of the early poetry/epic works was indeed composed by people we could shoehorn, and not with much trouble, into a definition of a "bard". Illiad, Oddysey, Death of King Arthur, Song of Ronald, viking sagas to name a few - all these works were supposed to be performed before the live audience, often with musical accompaniment. Since reading was such a rare ability, if often meant that most people knew certain works we today name "literary", from listening to them.
Which makes the music indeed quite important to the setting, because music, at least partially, equates literature of the period.
At the risk of re-igniting things, and not being an expert by any means ...
Quote from: Catelf;649979Joking aside, one has to think about the crude and fully incorrect use of the word "race" in a lot of fantasy-settings, probably due to the ... ehrm ... "southafrican origin" of Tolkien.
I prefer using "Species", personally, but race is quite an acceptable and correct term, in the sense of the Human Race, Goblin Race, Elven Race, Orc Race.
Quote from: Catelf;649979Rock comes from blues, and blues came from ... was it "Negro spirituals" they were called .. ? I have no idea what they may be called today, if they are called something different.
Far more complex than that, I am afraid. Blues provided a lot of inspiration to bands such as the Rolling Stones, but Rock and Roll in the fifties came from a fusion of Blues, Country and Western and Country, as well as being a music form of its own. Rock came later and was partially influenced by that, but not to a great extent. Certainly, Heavy Rock, Heavy Metal, Thrash Metal and so on don't have much to do with Blues. You could say that the subject matter of Heavy Metal owes more to Folk Music than anything else - Black Magic, Sexual Violence, Seduction, Witchcraft, Mindless Slaughter, all are elements that have been found in Folk Music for centuries.
Quote from: Catelf;649979My point is, "rock" in D&D, along with those who played it early on, would probably have come from Orcs.
Nope, you are effectively saying "orcs are based on black people, black people invented the Blues and thus Rock music, so Orcs would have invented Rock Music". What about reggae, motown, soul music, spirituals, samba and a whole host of African musical styles? Would orcs have invented those as well?
Not crazy, but woefully misguided and almost certainly wrong.
Actually, the argument is probably on-topic as it is a discussion of the origin of music, which sort-of fits in with the OP's point.
Quote from: Benoist;650127You are a moron. Tolkien moved from South Africa when he was three years old.
He was brought up in Birmingham, but I have lived there for longer than he did, so maybe I've been exposed to whatever he was!!!!!
Quote from: soltakss;650133He was brought up in Birmingham, but I have lived there for longer than he did, so maybe I've been exposed to whatever he was!!!!!
You must be a horrible person looking down upon dark-skinned people as sub-human trash. There. I said it. :D
Quote from: Rincewind1;650128In an odd ways, your post reminded me of an important issue:
Most of the early poetry/epic works was indeed composed by people we could shoehorn, and not with much trouble, into a definition of a "bard". Illiad, Oddysey, Death of King Arthur, Song of Ronald, viking sagas to name a few - all these works were supposed to be performed before the live audience, often with musical accompaniment. Since reading was such a rare ability, if often meant that most people knew certain works we today name "literary", from listening to them.
Which makes the music indeed quite important to the setting, because music, at least partially, equates literature of the period.
Yes, Bards were important in certain settings. A bard could actually inflict social wounds - you didn't want to get on the wrong side of a bard otherwise he'd make fun of you and diminish your authority.
Many ancient societies passed songs down orally - Greeks, Celts, Germans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, all had feasting halls and told epic poems, with bards playing vital roles. Even in literate times, troubadours and jongleurs wandered from town to town, castle to castle, court to court, telling their tales, singing their songs and passing on a new set of epics.
Whether that is something that sits in the background, or takes centre-stage depends on the style of the campaign.
This is the second thread to go full tangency. Going to close it if people don't want to talk about rpgs.
Quote from: soltakss;650135Yes, Bards were important in certain settings. A bard could actually inflict social wounds - you didn't want to get on the wrong side of a bard otherwise he'd make fun of you and diminish your authority.
Many ancient societies passed songs down orally - Greeks, Celts, Germans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, all had feasting halls and told epic poems, with bards playing vital roles. Even in literate times, troubadours and jongleurs wandered from town to town, castle to castle, court to court, telling their tales, singing their songs and passing on a new set of epics.
Whether that is something that sits in the background, or takes centre-stage depends on the style of the campaign.
I think this oral tradition is often underplayed in RPG settings, yes. As well as the importance of temple as not just a place of gathering for practice of faith, but also to listen to the news and rumour with people you don't have time to see during the week.
Also an interesting aspect often forgotten, something I've learned from reading literature about life in medieval Paris - since the concept of "green city space" wasn't really there until XVIII - XIX century, and when it was happening, it was mostly private parks with restricted access, cementaries were often places where people went to drink.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;650136This is the second thread to go full tangency. Going to close it if people don't want to talk about rpgs.
Or you could just go after the people who are purposely getting threads shut down by turning them into Tangency-fodder. I suspect it will be the same people over and over.
Regarding music and it's preservation, there's this really cool thing called magic. I'm sure at least some wizards would love music and have a way to record it, not to mention bards who use magic.
Quote from: danbuter;650196Regarding music and it's preservation, there's this really cool thing called magic. I'm sure at least some wizards would love music and have a way to record it, not to mention bards who use magic.
Well, bards using magic are rather an exemption rather than rule in fantasy settings. And yes, wizards could find such ways - the question is, how expansive it'd be.
Notation is a recording technology. As is the printing press.
Wrote my last response from my phone, as also this one. The examples were all for their performances, not their compositional talent. Composers are not usually known as performers. Mozart was an amazing pianist, but he couldn't perform a string quartet on his own. Beethoven needed a full orchestra for his symphonies (and possibly a choir). If the specific performance is what is celebrated, not the song or composition, you need recording technology.
I doubt you'd have gotten the mega famous Beatles style bands in fantasy setting RPGs. Without recordings at publishing they cant exist, but in its place you'd get something more interesting.
With so many bards and people singing for there supper, the world would be FULL of music. Every bar has a band, every street corner a performer. The local half orc percussion band plays there music in the local hard bar, a half elf bard sings songs of ancient dragons in the town square.
You don't need recordings of all theses but mentioning them can paint a very vivid picture of a city alive.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;650245Wrote my last response from my phone, as also this one. The examples were all for their performances, not their compositional talent. Composers are not usually known as performers. Mozart was an amazing pianist, but he couldn't perform a string quartet on his own. Beethoven needed a full orchestra for his symphonies (and possibly a choir). If the specific performance is what is celebrated, not the song or composition, you need recording technology.
Mozart performed though as well though and was notable for his talent as a performer. Paganini was a widely celebrated violinist. Farinelli was a famous castrato singer. These were all before the advent of mass produced records. It certainly isnt the same but there is still fame that can spread through live performces and reviews in print.
Famous performers will usually have a patronage (for higher class ones), or perform in popular low - class hauls, such as taverns or music halls. In case of villages, as noted, most will either have a tavern or a meeting hall, where a travelling bard can sing.
The Bard class in D&D doesn't really do much with music.
However, bards and similar professions in RQ/Legend/BRP use music as an integral part of their rationale.
Some bardic deities might grant magic that increases a bard's skill/ability/quality or grants special powers or allows the bard to harmonise/inflame/curse an opponent.
I can see Heroic-level bards as being similar to the Mozarts/Bachs of the setting, especially if they can win wars or do diplomacy.
The Bard class as a jack-of-all-trades doesn't represent historical bards very well, but then again in the D&D environment nothing really does.
I guess that brings up the question whether it makes sense to have a historical equivalent of a Bard be a playable class in an RPG. At first blush, it seems to me that a Bard would make a good NPC class --somewhere between a noble and the common folk, and able to move between both groups easily-- and could even be a vital as a sage at times.
Hmm.... The Bard as Sage sounds even more promising.
Quote from: Catelf;649979Joking aside, one has to think about the crude and fully incorrect use of the word "race" in a lot of fantasy-settings, probably due to the ... ehrm ... "southafrican origin" of Tolkien.
No, i'm not interested in bashing here, i just think that legacy is important when viewing the worlds in Fantasy.
Why?
Rock comes from blues, and blues came from ... was it "Negro spirituals" they were called .. ? I have no idea what they may be called today, if they are called something different.
My point is, "rock" in D&D, along with those who played it early on, would probably have come from Orcs.
Also, that would have messed up the whole idea with the D&D-style Alignments ....
And we can't have that now, can we?
I've been really busy lately and so haven't had almost any time to look at threads here... maybe I've fallen out of practice. I really can't tell if this post is serious or really clever mockery.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Catelf;650120Crazy?
Is it crazy to point out that the only darkskinned in LotR is Orcs, Goblins, and other beings that is depicted as cruel, mean and Evil, and that the reason for that easily can be traced back to the fact that Tolkien was a White Southafrican and essentially was brought up as a racist?
Is it crazy to point out that the musicstyle "rock" has its roots in "Negro Spirituals" wich was derived from the African slaves that was forced to work in the "USA"?
Is it crazy to point out, that the obvious result would be that in fantasy worlds, the Orks would have brought the seeds to Rock, or even have developed Rock themselves?
* sighs *
Well, i guess i'm crazy, then.
EDIT:
Sorry for that this exchange doesn't bring much, if anything, to the topic.
Ah, ok. So you were being serious then.
Quote from: Benoist;650121Nevermind that orcs are actually probably descendants of the Noldor tortured by Morgoth in Middle-earth.
And therefore part of a catholic morality-allegory.
And I imagine it doesn't need to be said that "dark=evil, light=good" is a fundamental (and pre-christian) symbolic archetype of western culture (among other cultures), albeit a simplistic one, that was significant for oh... THOUSANDS of years before anyone from Europe enslaved anyone from central or southern africa.
The thing people like catelf don't get about Tolkien is that his writing is not a reflection of current events of his time, or trying to address themes from his upbringing, rather Tolkien's work is for the most part busy trying to present the pressing issues of Stuff That's Been Around For Millennia, like Catholicism and European Pagan Myth.
Which is why people like him so much, because even though he's not by any means a perfect writer, he's actually addressing stuff that people unconsciously know are really important, down to the marrow of their bone, unlike most modern "literary" authors of his time (and, sadly, ours) who were writing about wanking, figuratively or sometimes literally.
RPGPundit
Quote from: soltakss;650132Nope, you are effectively saying "orcs are based on black people, black people invented the Blues and thus Rock music, so Orcs would have invented Rock Music".
Yeah, and then Tolkien is somehow the racist one....
Quote from: RPGPundit;652875And therefore part of a catholic morality-allegory.
And I imagine it doesn't need to be said that "dark=evil, light=good" is a fundamental (and pre-christian) symbolic archetype of western culture (among other cultures), albeit a simplistic one, that was significant for oh... THOUSANDS of years before anyone from Europe enslaved anyone from central or southern africa.
The thing people like catelf don't get about Tolkien is that his writing is not a reflection of current events of his time, or trying to address themes from his upbringing, rather Tolkien's work is for the most part busy trying to present the pressing issues of Stuff That's Been Around For Millennia, like Catholicism and European Pagan Myth.
Which is why people like him so much, because even though he's not by any means a perfect writer, he's actually addressing stuff that people unconsciously know are really important, down to the marrow of their bone, unlike most modern "literary" authors of his time (and, sadly, ours) who were writing about wanking, figuratively or sometimes literally.
RPGPundit
(http://images.wikia.com/xorviel/images/d/d0/Orson_Welles_Citizen_Kane_clapping_.gif)
Quote from: RPGPundit;652876Yeah, and then Tolkien is somehow the racist one....
The thing that bothers me about people trying to pin racism on tolkein is, of all the early fantasy/horror writers I can think of from that period, he always struck me as the one of the few guys who didn't have racist elements in his work. Wth someone like Lovecraft there is stuff that makes me cringe. But tolkein has held up pretty well in that respect over the years. Even outside his writings, his statements about jews and south africa, show someone who was opposed to racism.
In our modern society, anyone that practices exclusion is frowned upon. But there is always a pull in both directions. The United States, is, by and large, very welcoming of foreigners. But at the same time, we have a history of struggling with it. From signs of 'Irish Need Not Apply' to the Chinese Exclusion Act and up to the present day when we'll deport a 20-something person who has lived as an American since the age of 2 months because their parents entered the country illegally we have our issues with trying to find the line or limit of what type of 'integration' we can fully support.
But in Tolkien's work, there is no attempt at integration. Humans get along with dwarves and elves and hobbits; but nobody gets along with Orcs. Orcs are obviously intelligent and industrious.
Now, delving into the question of 'why can't anyone get along with orcs' is never addressed in the writing. So there are two possible reasons. One is that the orcs are largely misunderstood - forced to subsist on marginal land they must turn to raiding and plunder to support their society - they become tragic victims of humanity's greed for land and resources (and to a lesser extent that of the other races). The other view is that they're irredeemably evil, and any attempt that might have been made was doomed to failure.
Now, the idea that a people can be irredeemably evil must be rejected immediately in the real world. That's incredibly racist and utterly indefensible. In a fantasy world, though?
So, if Middle-Earth were 'the real world', the 'civilized races' would have some explanations to make.
But that's not actually relevant to the books or the stories - that's relevant to the real world and how we relate to our cultural myths.
Quote from: Catelf;650123You just don't understand that the white southafricans looked at the darskinned as non-human cattle, do you?
Anyway, i decide to leave this sidetrack oficcially now, because i do not want to derail the topic (further).
You're aware that his family was British and got moved to South Africa by his father's job and Tolkien left South Africa when he was THREE, right?
Quote from: CRKrueger;653505You're aware that his family was British and got moved to South Africa by his father's job and Tolkien left South Africa when he was THREE, right?
Don't confuse him with facts!
Quote from: Catelf;649979There is more artists and groups that is or has been as influential as those few you mentioned, but also really tons of artists and groups that may not have been as influential, but still important for culture.
As for the general lack of them, ... well, after reading "Order of the Stick", i half-jokingly blame it on D&D's original use of Bards ...
Joking aside, one has to think about the crude and fully incorrect use of the word "race" in a lot of fantasy-settings, probably due to the ... ehrm ... "southafrican origin" of Tolkien.
No, i'm not interested in bashing here, i just think that legacy is important when viewing the worlds in Fantasy.
Why?
Rock comes from blues, and blues came from ... was it "Negro spirituals" they were called .. ? I have no idea what they may be called today, if they are called something different, but since your whiny-ass bitching was the first reply, you took over the whole thread.
My point is, "rock" in D&D, along with those who played it early on, would probably have come from Orcs.
Also, that would have messed up the whole idea with the D&D-style Alignments ....
And we can't have that now, can we?
Anyway, Worlds that do not have the "Tolkien-legacy" i mentioned before, should have no problem having artists and groups that perform to the pleasure of onlookers.
So, why do they seem to lack in that area ever-so often, too?
I'd have to say Literature.
How often is artists of importance really described in Sci-fi and Fantasy?
... Not very often.
Because I haven't addressed this yet: You're a fuckhead. Please go back to Tangency and cry there. The vast majority of your post had absofuckinglutely nothing to do with this topic.
Quote from: danbuter;653723Don't confuse him with facts!
Yeah I can't stand some of the crap that stands for logic with the SJ crowd.
Tolkien is South African, that explains everything about Middle Earth!
Light is Good, Dark is Evil, Racism!
Like Pundit said, Light has been associated with Good and Dark for Evil before the time of the Pyramids. There's a reason Ra is god of the sun and Set the god of night and it has nothing to do with black people:
Homo Sapiens is Diurnal, and we can't see in the Dark. That's it.
Night is the time when predators hunt us and we die, so we huddled in our caves around our fires, waiting for the dawn, telling stories about the things out in the dark.
Now you want to say Africans were discriminated against because they were the "Evil color", sure that was part of it, but since the Light/Dark dichotomy is a Jungian archetype, it's really stupid to say Black is Evil. Orcs are Black, therefore Uruk Hai are black people.
Hey I know, let's get going with the "Dark Side" of D&D again, shall we? I never did get an explanation about how D&D, more then other media is the perfect media for Stormfront. :rolleyes:
Because wizard controls the quadruple of production means that the rest of the party does.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;650011When we talk about popular bands/performers in the modern era, it's important to acknowledge the importance of recording technology. If exposure to Elvis had been limited to live performances, he'd likely never have developed a national following, let alone an international presence. I was born in 1979; without recording technology my only exposure to his music would have been from 'impersonators' who sing their rendition of his half-remembered songs.
So a standard fantasy world is unlikely to have such singular popular artists. And even if you had an Elvis in your hometown, you'd probably get tired of the same concert every Friday night. Instead of becoming a rabid one band fan, you'd crave variety. The 'wandering minstrel' concept is thus further supported.
As far as cultural attitudes toward popular music, I think it's worth considering, especially in regards to instrumentation. For example, brass instruments require a sophisticated mining/metallurgy culture, so they may be most appropriate for Dwarves. Elves may prefer string instruments and breezy woodwinds. Humans like to use instruments from many different cultures. Once you decide that Hobbtits like jug bands and hobgoblin hordes include a massive marching drum line pounding in unison, you have some interesting ideas about how music and culture impact each other.
I think it can have quite an impact on how a group is perceived and played. Dwarves whose music is Gregorian chants feel very different from ones whose music is Ragtime.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;650015Exactly - this is why we know nothing about the works of Thomas Tallis, or Bach, or Mozart, since after they died, no one ever played their music again.
No one alive has
Quoteheard
Mozart play. Plenty of people born after Elvis died have heard him sing.
Quote from: KenHR;650221Notation is a recording technology. As is the printing press.
Doesn't save the performance though.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;650414The Bard class as a jack-of-all-trades doesn't represent historical bards very well, but then again in the D&D environment nothing really does.
I guess that brings up the question whether it makes sense to have a historical equivalent of a Bard be a playable class in an RPG. At first blush, it seems to me that a Bard would make a good NPC class --somewhere between a noble and the common folk, and able to move between both groups easily-- and could even be a vital as a sage at times.
Hmm.... The Bard as Sage sounds even more promising.
Add to it the guy who knows everyone, and you have a source for all kinds of rumors as well. Not only do bards know all the old legends, they also know who has been up to what with whom, since they talk with everyone the meet, and they travel around so they meet a lot of people.
Quote from: apparition13;653952Add to it the guy who knows everyone, and you have a source for all kinds of rumors as well. Not only do bards know all the old legends, they also know who has been up to what with whom, since they talk with everyone the meet, and they travel around so they meet a lot of people.
Though I don't think this fits the definition of 'protected role'. All PCs could keep up on all the NPCs - most don't. But if they do, they can drive the adventure in some pretty amazing ways.
That does bring up the point that bards could be protected if they had enough dirt on the right people. They could also be targeted by assassins if they tried to use their info on the wrong person.
I think an interesting campaign, featuring lots of politics, could come of this if a player randomly picked up rumors, especially rumors no one was supposed to know about.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;654133Though I don't think this fits the definition of 'protected role'. All PCs could keep up on all the NPCs - most don't. But if they do, they can drive the adventure in some pretty amazing ways.
I'm thinking of the informant who always knows what's going down.
Or even Castle in the early episodes, when he always knew someone because he had met them doing the research for a book. Actually Castle would make a pretty good bard. He's dabbled in a lot of things, including shooting and lockpicking, he's familiar with a lot of people and a lot of sub-cultures, he's widely read, etc.
I think of it as an ability rather than a product of roleplaying. Make a roll, if you succeed, you know someone/something relevant. Other players can access the internet (through roleplaying), bards are the internet.
Quote from: apparition13;653952Doesn't save the performance though.
It's a distinction without relevance to deadDMwalking's point, such as it was - the influence of music is not limited to live performances, as compositions can be performed widely, both during and after a composer's lifetime.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;654203It's a distinction without relevance to deadDMwalking's point, such as it was - the influence of music is not limited to live performances, as compositions can be performed widely, both during and after a composer's lifetime.
This response was to KenHR's post that notation is a recording medium. So is writing, but a transcript of Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech doesn't convey the power of the oratory.
As for music, as far as I'm concerned, it's the performance that counts. I love Segar's version of "turn the page", I hate Metallica's. I love Clapton's original version of Layla, I hate the accoustic one he did in the '90s. I've seen several performers more than once, and I've walked out of some concerts thinking that was okay, and others by the same artist feeling electrified.
By the way, re. deadDMWalking's point about not having "rock stars" pre-recording,
I've heard of Sarah Bernhardt, and she's an actress known for her stage work over 100 years ago. In her heyday in the late 19th century everyone had, and if she was showing up in town to do a play it would have been SRO in spite of the fact no one there would have seen her previously. That's how big her reputation was.
Quote from: apparition13;654235As for music, as far as I'm concerned, it's the performance that counts.
One does not need to hear Mozart himself perform his music to appreciate Mozart's music, however.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;654203It's a distinction without relevance to deadDMwalking's point, such as it was - the influence of music is not limited to live performances, as compositions can be performed widely, both during and after a composer's lifetime.
Then methinks you missed my point completely.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;650011When we talk about popular bands/performers in the modern era, it's important to acknowledge the importance of recording technology. If exposure to Elvis had been limited to live performances, he'd likely never have developed a national following, let alone an international presence. I was born in 1979; without recording technology my only exposure to his music would have been from 'impersonators' who sing their rendition of his half-remembered songs.
Please note that Elvis was known as a performer - he didn't write most of his material. Likewise, we celebrate the peformances of people like Aretha Franklin singing Respect - despite the fact that Otis Redding sang it first.
Baby One More Time made it to the top of the Pop Charts in the United States and many other countries. Do you really think it would have had the same success if it were performed by Max Martin (who wrote the song).
The difference between a composer or songwriter and a performer is enormous. I've mentioned bofore that I have young children. I've watched some of the special features on our
Little Mermaid DVD. I assure you that Alan Menken singing
Under the Sea would have given the movie an entirely different tenor than Jodi Benson's performance.
Even a composer (like, say, John Williams) is known for their composition, and not their performance. Besides the fact that it'd be impossible to perform the Star Wars score individually (it's written for Symphonic Orchestra), it doesn't really matter if he's a virtuoso on the piano - that's not what he's famous for. I don't think it'd be fair to compare John Williams as a performer against Rachmaninoff as a performer - but as composers, certainly.
****
In regards to famous individuals - yes, I absolutely agree they could happen - whether in stage or music. But they'll tend to TRAVEL.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;650011So a standard fantasy world is unlikely to have such singular popular artists. And even if you had an Elvis in your hometown, you'd probably get tired of the same concert every Friday night. Instead of becoming a rabid one band fan, you'd crave variety. The 'wandering minstrel' concept is thus further supported.
As I said earlier:
Quote from: deadDMwalking;650245Wrote my last response from my phone, as also this one. The examples were all for their performances, not their compositional talent. Composers are not usually known as performers. Mozart was an amazing pianist, but he couldn't perform a string quartet on his own. Beethoven needed a full orchestra for his symphonies (and possibly a choir). If the specific performance is what is celebrated, not the song or composition, you need recording technology.
So, to reiterate - reading the lyrics of
Luck Be a Lady captures nothing of the 'essence' of a Frank Sinatra recording. Sheet Music of
Beethoven's 9th does a better job - but that's because it's not a single performer it's capturing but instead 'blue prints' for re-creating a performance - but even that is limited by assuming you have the TALENT and the DIRECTION necessary to reproduce the 'performance' adequately. Surely you're not foolish enough to argue that there's no difference between a High School band performance of
Stars and Stripes Forever and that of the Marine Corps Marching Band - the notes and arrangement might be the same, but that's only a piece of the total.
Quote from: danbuter;654138That does bring up the point that bards could be protected if they had enough dirt on the right people. They could also be targeted by assassins if they tried to use their info on the wrong person.
I think an interesting campaign, featuring lots of politics, could come of this if a player randomly picked up rumors, especially rumors no one was supposed to know about.
In certain cultures storytellers were feared by the powerful since they could come up with incisive and unpleasant ditties about people who crossed them. Admittedly not feared a whole lot, but it was the medieval equivalent of a viral smear campaign.
Quote from: Catelf;649979There is more artists and groups that is or has been as influential as those few you mentioned, but also really tons of artists and groups that may not have been as influential, but still important for culture.
As for the general lack of them, ... well, after reading "Order of the Stick", i half-jokingly blame it on D&D's original use of Bards ...
Joking aside, one has to think about the crude and fully incorrect use of the word "race" in a lot of fantasy-settings, probably due to the ... ehrm ... "southafrican origin" of Tolkien.
No, i'm not interested in bashing here, i just think that legacy is important when viewing the worlds in Fantasy.
Why?
Rock comes from blues, and blues came from ... was it "Negro spirituals" they were called .. ? I have no idea what they may be called today, if they are called something different.
My point is, "rock" in D&D, along with those who played it early on, would probably have come from Orcs.
Also, that would have messed up the whole idea with the D&D-style Alignments ....
And we can't have that now, can we?
Anyway, Worlds that do not have the "Tolkien-legacy" i mentioned before, should have no problem having artists and groups that perform to the pleasure of onlookers.
So, why do they seem to lack in that area ever-so often, too?
I'd have to say Literature.
How often is artists of importance really described in Sci-fi and Fantasy?
... Not very often.
That is all very ridiculous.
Besides, orcs come Scandinavian mythology, they have no relevance/relationship to African peoples.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;654265Please note that Elvis was known as a performer -
So was Mozart, though...
I listen to music while designing a dungeon or spaceport.
Quote from: RPGPundit;655524So was Mozart, though...
Yes. And Elvis is
still known as a performer, despite being dead (according to most) for 30+ years.
Mozart, while he has a reputation as a performer, it's impossible to KNOW how good he is - our best guess is based on performances of his work (which we assume he was pretty good at performing). But regardless of his skills as a performer, he is
now known as a Composer.
Yo-Yo Ma may be a better violinist than Mozart was; it's impossible to know; but we can evaluate his performance on a String Quartet because we can hear it. Direct experience counts for more than word-of-mouth. That's why reputation tends to fade so quickly...
If someone is known as the 'fastest gun in the west', people want to see it proven time and time again; not take the word of someone who claims to have seen him 'shoot, like, faster than anyone ever, guys! It was amazing!'. We all have a bit of sceptic in us - some more than others.
Quote from: Catelf;650120Crazy?
Is it crazy to point out that the only darkskinned in LotR is Orcs, Goblins, and other beings that is depicted as cruel, mean and Evil, and that the reason for that easily can be traced back to the fact that Tolkien was a White Southafrican and essentially was brought up as a racist?
Well, its not crazy so much as ignorant. You obviously haven't done even the most basic research on the subject. You might start by looking up Tolkien's letter to the German Nazi publisher that wanted to do an edition of LOTR.
QuoteIs it crazy to point out that the musicstyle "rock" has its roots in "Negro Spirituals" wich was derived from the African slaves that was forced to work in the "USA"?
Its crazy to try and make a spurious connection between that with your erroneously simplistic reading of orcs as "blacks" based on nothing besides colour and completely oblivious of Tolkien's own words on the subject, what was actually written on the subject in the Lord of the Rings story itself, and the classical literary origins of the characters/creatures in LOTR that Tolkien was drawing upon.
QuoteIs it crazy to point out, that the obvious result would be that in fantasy worlds, the Orks would have brought the seeds to Rock, or even have developed Rock themselves?
Only if one accepts the racist notion that orcs = africans. So not crazy, but it does make
you seem racist, actually.
Quote from: Catelf;650120Is it crazy to point out, that the obvious result would be that in fantasy worlds, the Orks would have brought the seeds to Rock, or even have developed Rock themselves?
Clearly carrying "the seeds to Rock" is a dwarf thing. Now I'm wondering what they do.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;655560Yo-Yo Ma may be a better violinist than Mozart was . . .
Yo Yo Ma is a cellist.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;655560. . . it's impossible to know; but we can evaluate his performance on a String Quartet because we can hear it. Direct experience counts for more than word-of-mouth. That's why reputation tends to fade so quickly...
Mozart's reputation as a performer survived for two hundred years and counting.
I take your point, but I don't think it's relevant.