Quote from: danbuter;649948Something that is largely ignored in rpg settings (except Shadowrun) is the effect of music on culture. Bards may be mentioned, but there is nothing even close to an Elvis or the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or Hank Williams in most settings. I'm not sure if this is just a modern phenomena, but it seems like it should have more of a presence in games.

In Merrie England, troubadours, jongleurs, waytes and so on are vitally important as they defined that age more than anything else.

In other settings, bards can be very powerful as they can cut a king down to size or talk up a minor warrior so that a whole feasting hall is chanting his name.

In a Jerry Cornelius game, Hawkwind and Motorhead would play an important part in the game.

I don't normally have something like the Rolling Stones, just because it generally isn't important to the game. Sure, there would be major composers/performers, but unless they have game-importance they don't figure.

In a modern game which is set around Special Forces/Mercenaries, would musicians play an important role? How about film stars, TV stars or celebrities? All are "important" or at least famous in the modern world, but would they have any bearing on such a game? I doubt it. A Spetsnaz-trained mercenary, though, might be far more famous in the game than any pop star.

Quote from: danbuter;649948Elvis or the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or Hank Williams

By the way, you are showing your age, I think, with these examples.

Quote from: Catelf;650123You just don't understand that the white southafricans looked at the darskinned as non-human cattle, do you?

You are a moron. Tolkien moved from South Africa when he was three years old.

Quote from: Catelf;650120Crazy?
Is it crazy to point out that the only darkskinned in LotR is Orcs, Goblins, and other beings that is depicted as cruel, mean and Evil, and that the reason for that easily can be traced back to the fact that Tolkien was a White Southafrican and essentially was brought up as a racist?
Is it crazy to point out that the musicstyle "rock" has its roots in "Negro Spirituals" wich was derived from the African slaves that was forced to work in the "USA"?
Is it crazy to point out, that the obvious result would be that in fantasy worlds, the Orks would have brought the seeds to Rock, or even have developed Rock themselves?

* sighs *
Well, i guess i'm crazy, then.

EDIT:
Sorry for that this exchange doesn't bring much, if anything, to the topic.

Wood Elves were also dark - skinned from what I recall. British society was far more classist than racist - there were actually clashed between British and American soldiers, when Americans were trying to throw Indians out of pubs when they were sitting in Britain for preparation for D-Day. And Tolkien, as pointed out elsewhere, was a man of a very British upbringing.

Orcs' black skin, at least to me (a mostly sane observer), was more to do with trying to make a connotation between A) a race that lived and toiled under the mountains, but in a more ruinous way than dwarves, B) a bit of an allegory about sooth and grim covered faces and C) the orcs were created in a powerful process that mangled and burned their bodies, henceforth a burnt - like quality to their bodies.

And for the music - rock isn't exactly a kind of music I imagine for a fantasy setting. But even if - going by the logic that "it was stolen from the Black Man, and White Man should pay", every black gang in US should pay for stealing the concept of organised crime to descendants of Mobs from the 30s.

WFRP orcs from 2e would be more likely to engage in Football Songs than rock. And the 1e orcs and most of typical fantasy orcs, I imagine would be more into metal or viking songs.

And yes, to bring up an issue of racism in fantasy in a thread about bloody importance of music, is either craziness, or looking for being offended. Take your pick.

PS. I'm a Polack, and Slavs were slaves to the bloody ancients back in the days where people thought Africa was a different planet.

Quote from: Benoist;650121Nevermind that orcs are actually probably descendants of the Noldor tortured by Morgoth in Middle-earth.

Hey, look! Anthropoid dark-skinned bad guys! This must be a real-world allegory for black people! SOCIAL JUSTICE!

I'm really tired of this stuff. I understand why you change Oompa Loompas skin from black to orange, since black pygmies slaving in a factory under a white chocolate fat cat...alright by me. But really, to accuse that every single black villain = racism, is just taking that whole debacle of "They were not suspended because they were caught in a fight, they were suspended because they were black!" to the next level.

Quote from: soltakss;650124In Merrie England, troubadours, jongleurs, waytes and so on are vitally important as they defined that age more than anything else.

In other settings, bards can be very powerful as they can cut a king down to size or talk up a minor warrior so that a whole feasting hall is chanting his name.

In a Jerry Cornelius game, Hawkwind and Motorhead would play an important part in the game.

I don't normally have something like the Rolling Stones, just because it generally isn't important to the game. Sure, there would be major composers/performers, but unless they have game-importance they don't figure.

In an odd ways, your post reminded me of an important issue:

Most of the early poetry/epic works was indeed composed by people we could shoehorn, and not with much trouble, into a definition of a "bard". Illiad, Oddysey, Death of King Arthur, Song of Ronald, viking sagas to name a few - all these works were supposed to be performed before the live audience, often with musical accompaniment. Since reading was such a rare ability, if often meant that most people knew certain works we today name "literary", from listening to them.

Which makes the music indeed quite important to the setting, because music, at least partially, equates literature of the period.

At the risk of re-igniting things, and not being an expert by any means ...

Quote from: Catelf;649979Joking aside, one has to think about the crude and fully incorrect use of the word "race" in a lot of fantasy-settings, probably due to the ... ehrm ... "southafrican origin" of Tolkien.

I prefer using "Species", personally, but race is quite an acceptable and correct term, in the sense of the Human Race, Goblin Race, Elven Race, Orc Race.

Quote from: Catelf;649979Rock comes from blues, and blues came from ... was it "Negro spirituals" they were called .. ? I have no idea what they may be called today, if they are called something different.

Far more complex than that, I am afraid. Blues provided a lot of inspiration to bands such as the Rolling Stones, but Rock and Roll in the fifties came from a fusion of Blues, Country and Western and Country, as well as being a music form of its own. Rock came later and was partially influenced by that, but not to a great extent. Certainly, Heavy Rock, Heavy Metal, Thrash Metal and so on don't have much to do with Blues. You could say that the subject matter of Heavy Metal owes more to Folk Music than anything else - Black Magic, Sexual Violence, Seduction, Witchcraft, Mindless Slaughter, all are elements that have been found in Folk Music for centuries.

Quote from: Catelf;649979My point is, "rock" in D&D, along with those who played it early on, would probably have come from Orcs.

Nope, you are effectively saying "orcs are based on black people, black people invented the Blues and thus Rock music, so Orcs would have invented Rock Music". What about reggae, motown, soul music, spirituals, samba and a whole host of African musical styles? Would orcs have invented those as well?

Not crazy, but woefully misguided and almost certainly wrong.

Actually, the argument is probably on-topic as it is a discussion of the origin of music, which sort-of fits in with the OP's point.

Quote from: Benoist;650127You are a moron. Tolkien moved from South Africa when he was three years old.

He was brought up in Birmingham, but I have lived there for longer than he did, so maybe I've been exposed to whatever he was!!!!!

Quote from: soltakss;650133He was brought up in Birmingham, but I have lived there for longer than he did, so maybe I've been exposed to whatever he was!!!!!

You must be a horrible person looking down upon dark-skinned people as sub-human trash. There. I said it.

Quote from: Rincewind1;650128In an odd ways, your post reminded me of an important issue:

Most of the early poetry/epic works was indeed composed by people we could shoehorn, and not with much trouble, into a definition of a "bard". Illiad, Oddysey, Death of King Arthur, Song of Ronald, viking sagas to name a few - all these works were supposed to be performed before the live audience, often with musical accompaniment. Since reading was such a rare ability, if often meant that most people knew certain works we today name "literary", from listening to them.

Which makes the music indeed quite important to the setting, because music, at least partially, equates literature of the period.

Yes, Bards were important in certain settings. A bard could actually inflict social wounds - you didn't want to get on the wrong side of a bard otherwise he'd make fun of you and diminish your authority.

Many ancient societies passed songs down orally - Greeks, Celts, Germans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, all had feasting halls and told epic poems, with bards playing vital roles. Even in literate times, troubadours and jongleurs wandered from town to town, castle to castle, court to court, telling their tales, singing their songs and passing on a new set of epics.

Whether that is something that sits in the background, or takes centre-stage depends on the style of the campaign.

This is the second thread to go full tangency. Going to close it if people don't want to talk about rpgs.

Quote from: soltakss;650135Yes, Bards were important in certain settings. A bard could actually inflict social wounds - you didn't want to get on the wrong side of a bard otherwise he'd make fun of you and diminish your authority.

Many ancient societies passed songs down orally - Greeks, Celts, Germans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, all had feasting halls and told epic poems, with bards playing vital roles. Even in literate times, troubadours and jongleurs wandered from town to town, castle to castle, court to court, telling their tales, singing their songs and passing on a new set of epics.

Whether that is something that sits in the background, or takes centre-stage depends on the style of the campaign.

I think this oral tradition is often underplayed in RPG settings, yes. As well as the importance of temple as not just a place of gathering for practice of faith, but also to listen to the news and rumour with people you don't have time to see during the week.

Also an interesting aspect often forgotten, something I've learned from reading literature about life in medieval Paris - since the concept of "green city space" wasn't really there until XVIII - XIX century, and when it was happening, it was mostly private parks with restricted access, cementaries were often places where people went to drink.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;650136This is the second thread to go full tangency. Going to close it if people don't want to talk about rpgs.

Or you could just go after the people who are purposely getting threads shut down by turning them into Tangency-fodder. I suspect it will be the same people over and over.

Regarding music and it's preservation, there's this really cool thing called magic. I'm sure at least some wizards would love music and have a way to record it, not to mention bards who use magic.

Quote from: danbuter;650196Regarding music and it's preservation, there's this really cool thing called magic. I'm sure at least some wizards would love music and have a way to record it, not to mention bards who use magic.

Well, bards using magic are rather an exemption rather than rule in fantasy settings. And yes, wizards could find such ways - the question is, how expansive it'd be.

Notation is a recording technology.  As is the printing press.

Wrote my last response from my phone, as also this one.  The examples were all for their performances,  not their compositional talent.  Composers are not usually known as performers.  Mozart was an amazing pianist, but he couldn't perform a string quartet on his own.  Beethoven needed a full orchestra for his symphonies (and possibly a choir).  If the specific performance is what is celebrated, not the song or composition, you need recording technology.

I doubt you'd have gotten the mega famous Beatles style bands in fantasy setting RPGs. Without recordings at publishing they cant exist, but in its place you'd get something more interesting.

With so many bards and people singing for there supper, the world would be FULL of music. Every bar has a band, every street corner a performer. The local half orc percussion band plays there music in the local hard bar, a half elf bard sings songs of ancient dragons in the town square.

You don't need recordings of all theses but mentioning them can paint a very vivid picture of a city alive.