I used to play MERP with Rolemaster back in the 90´s. I have to say it did feel more like DnD to me,
could be due to the Rolemaster or the GM though.

One Ring on the other hand captures the feel of Middle Earth way better, though that is just my opinion.

Quote from: Aglondir on May 24, 2023, 01:06:05 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2023, 10:05:35 PM
Greetings!

Aglondir! Hey there my friend! I'm glad that you like my three pillars of gaming! As for COC, or mystery games, or anime waifu furries, I can't say what makes those kinds of games tick. My three pillars are tailored for D&D and similar games. Through the years, my players have had zero interest in those other kinds of games. I'm a huge fan of the Middle Earth books and the films as well. However, I also believe that Middle Earth, as a campaign setting for D&D, has honestly only a very limited and narrow appeal. There is probably something to that from how all Middle Earth Commercial Campaigns have ultimately been commercial failures. None of them have ever lasted very long. MERP managed to limp along probably the longest, but its broader appeal was likewise pretty narrow.

For lack of a more verbose explanation, Middle Earth promotes a kind of railroad experience, and even when one divorces themselves from the central plot, the overall theme still only appeals to a few, or specifically when someone is in the mood for a Middle Earth Experience.

We see that everywhere in our society today, and especially so in RPG gaming. Everyone wants to play a sexy beast Teifling, or  Dragonborn, or  Vampire. Few have any interest in playing in a world of righteous, high-minded, goody-goody Characters.

That is what is at the deep end of your questions, my friend, in my view.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK,

Excellent analysis. Sexy beast Teiflings, Dragonborn, or Vampires... you forgot green-skinned goblin strumpets, LOL!

I love Middle Earth, but perhaps it is something best appreciated in books and movies rather than an RPG setting. I keep revisiting the concept, trying to think of ways to make it work, but it never seems to gain any ground.

Greetings!

Thank you, Aglondir! Yes, good catch! I forgot about the green-skinned Goblin strumpets! *Laughing* Isn't it just amazing how popular Goblin strumpets are recently? I've been seeing them everywhere! Even normally solid game groups have at least one person that says, "For my new Character, SHARK, can I make a Goblin strumpet? I want her to be just like Kim Kardashian! Whoo-Hoo! Yeah, baby! BRINGIN' ALL THAT BOOTY!" I'm like, Goblins? WTF? I had  friend of mine bring up some artwork, and I was blown away! I was like, "Oh, DAYUM! THAT'S why Maria wants her character to be a green-skinned Kim Kardashian Goblin strumpet!" It is definitely a popular thing!

I've had Players that want to be grim Wolf-humanoid Legionnaires, or Minotaur barbarians, or Elephant-women Nature priestesses. And Kardashian Goblin strumpets. And I have a pretty solid group that I heavily screen and curate. Even I have to fight to some extent to restrain the "Crazy Factor" as I call it. *Laughing* And I'm well aware also of what the gamers at my local game stores are into--they want total crazy zoos!

I always have a few stalwarts that like to stick with traditional heroic characters, with the rest always wanting to push the envelope. As for playstyle goes, yeah, ruthless barbarians and greedy, smug mercenaries are common. Pure n high-minded Paladins, goody-goody priests? Not so much. Even the women! The women often tell me, "I don't want to play a goody-goody Nun! I want to play a vicious, sexy Witch with an attitude! And an evil Baboon animal friend that can bite my enemies and chomp chomp on them!" Or some variation like that.

Yes, I know everyone is going to come along and say, "Well, SHARK, I have a party that LOVES playing righteous goody-goody Characters! NYAH NYAH NYAH!" Yeah, OK. Whatever, right? In my experience though, most of the time, with most players, the more high-fantasy, high-moral style of play and themes of a Middle Earth Campaign are generally going to be far less popular, and hence, far more difficult. That is why I generally rely upon my SHARK's Three Pillars of RPG Theory. It ultimately saves me more time, and produces more FUN and less stress, for more people. Because, I am also ultimately a Lawful Good Warlord that embraces the Gygxian Truth of "The Greater Good of the Many outweighs the needs of the Few."

And yes, I also own all of Tolkien's books, all of the films, and also all of Rolemaster and MERP. Trying to get most groups into a Middle Earth Campaign--and actually having  consistent level of fun with it, is like trying to get round pegs into a square hole. The sales and commercial data supports my observations and analysis as well. I also like your thoughts on ME being a better medium or fit for boos an movies than RPG's. There is a powerful insight to that, Aglondir. Never forget, though, FBG! My theory will consistently bring more fun, for more people, more consistently--and bring less frustration and stress for you, the GM.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Treating Middle Earth as a genre or sub-genre, I think it does potentially have plenty of Fighting & Gold. But the complete lack of Booty, of sex as something that exists in-universe, is very striking. The complete lack of organised religion is also very striking. Taken together, I find this creates something very alien to real-world experience, which I think does limit appeal. It's far easier to GM & play in something resembling Westeros or the Hyborean Age.

Quote from: SHARK on May 24, 2023, 03:04:17 AM
I've had Players that want to be grim Wolf-humanoid Legionnaires, or Minotaur barbarians, or Elephant-women Nature priestesses. And Kardashian Goblin strumpets.

While I've never yet had a Goblin Strumpet NPC in my fairly Ed Greenwood themed Forgotten Realms campaign, I have to say I'm now tempted! 

NSFW 'Gobblers' comic title page with sexy goblin - https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1A4uqIZlvf0MTxfIh1zpu-7ANYbATcbkwAFpiY7Opgjkhj9Y6vPaMsj908XUEUPb2ebJiUNhZp8p5G-VGe4Vq_sltyjgA64FCu-WZsn3Z5No9GAEy_EXmWJnx-bXUOuAuc_wOl4vTeT7V6ooNWBnBC944GYvFXrvF79NZNLl8gd_8s5lMY1DWBf4tVQ/w419-h640/Goblins!.jpg

Overpriced Kickstarter campaign comic https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gobblers1/gobblers

One of my favorite campaigns I ever ran was using MERP in the 90s.  But we played in the mid Third Age and ran it much like D&D, albeit with an against the Shadow theme.  Two of the players were really into Tolkien, but the others just wanted to game.  The crits were brutal and they lost a lot of PCs over the years, but we had a blast.  There are limitations imposed by the setting, I suppose, but we hewed pretty close to the rules, which cuts down on magic and ICE was pretty creative in coming up with villains who were non-canon (like half troll warlocks, evil elves and such), but kind of worked.  In fact, I recently pulled out our old characters and transferred them onto new character sheets in hopes of running a one shot with them later this summer and possibly getting current players into MERP.

We tried TOR 2e and hated its mechanics.  In particular it tries too slavishly to emulate the books, making it rather dull and restrictive.  You really feel like extras rather than heroes. 

FWIW I think that's a limitation of most settings based on well-known books/IPs.  How do you strike the balance between kick ass gaming in X and just replaying the book/movie, etc.?

It depends on the campaign and the world, of course.  For myself, I really do like campaigns with moral themes and the use of the play space mediated by dice and player decisions to explore them, such that outcomes are not predetermined and that players can make a stand for the principles they choose to embody. 

But you do also need to have moment-by-moment and session-by-session engagement, and wealth, sex, and power are great ways to drive that.  But different campaigns are about different things.  Going full atavistic power-fantasy is a gaming style that a lot of people genuinely enjoy for its own sake, and you don't need to excuse or subvert that.  But I also like campaigns that are about different things.  For me, "Choosing to do good in a world that is indifferent at best and far more often will ruthlessly exploit my mercy and charity, and seeing if my character can rise above or be swallowed by darkness, from within or without." is My Jam, in most cases, and I'm generally not motivated by getting fictional wealth, no matter how well-described.  But just because I'm not super-entertained by acquiring and hoarding wealth doesn't mean that no one is. 

Hell, I'd definitely get a blast out of playing the worried accountant character for a team of murderous oversexed loot-crazed dungeon-mad adventurers, who fusses about fencing fist-sized ruby eyes and worries about destabilizing the local economy whenever the party passes through, and thus both feeds the GM possible plot-hooks, gives deeper engagement with the world, and makes the specialness of the other PCs stand out more.

The simple answer is because Middle Earth is not a typical fantasy setting despite it foundational role in D&D and the hobby. Specifically it is about far from Swords & Sorcery one can get for a traditional fantasy setting.

Campaigns in Middle Earth are like campaigns in Call of Cthulu. It is a setting with a specific tone and tenor and a good Middle Earth RPG will reflect that. And for hobbyists it means roleplaying characters in Middle Earth can't be approached with the same attitude you do with most fantasy system. You have to buy into its central premise just to enjoy Call of Cthulu you have to buy into one of its central premises. That you are fighting monsters that will eventually drive your character mad and thus end their adventuring career and perhaps their life.

I use Call of Cthulu as an example because after playing and running the latest round of Middle Earth RPGs (The One Ring and especially Adventures in Middle Earth) I realize that as far as adventuring THE theme of Middle Earth is the struggle to do what right and preserve what good against the shadow of Morgoth and Sauron, the slow decay of time, and passion of free-willed beings.

Because of the existence of an active agent of evil (Morgoth or Sauron), that like Call of Cthulu that this struggle will take it toll and eventually end one's adventuring career.

Quote from: Aglondir on May 23, 2023, 10:08:41 PM
Aragorn and Arwen, and Sam and Rosie.

You forgot Eowyn and Faramir.

Quote from: SHARK on May 24, 2023, 03:04:17 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on May 24, 2023, 01:06:05 AM
I love Middle Earth, but perhaps it is something best appreciated in books and movies rather than an RPG setting. I keep revisiting the concept, trying to think of ways to make it work, but it never seems to gain any ground.

Yes, I know everyone is going to come along and say, "Well, SHARK, I have a party that LOVES playing righteous goody-goody Characters! NYAH NYAH NYAH!" Yeah, OK. Whatever, right? In my experience though, most of the time, with most players, the more high-fantasy, high-moral style of play and themes of a Middle Earth Campaign are generally going to be far less popular, and hence, far more difficult. That is why I generally rely upon my SHARK's Three Pillars of RPG Theory. It ultimately saves me more time, and produces more FUN and less stress, for more people. Because, I am also ultimately a Lawful Good Warlord that embraces the Gygxian Truth of "The Greater Good of the Many outweighs the needs of the Few."

I agree that a style of lots of Fighting+Booty+Gold is probably the most popular style -- just like D&D is the most popular game. But there are lots of players who are happy to play non-D&D games, and there are players who are happy to play different styles even within D&D. Plenty of gamers enjoy Amber or Call of Cthulhu or Warhammer or Star Wars gaming. I don't think that going with what is universally the most popular is always the best route for a particular group of players at a particular time.

I still intend to push forwards with my Savage Worlds Middle Earth plans.

I've only ever tried MERP once, at a con, and it seemed fine to me.  In the abstract it also seems like it would work well.

Maybe I'm atypical, but SHARK's FBG isn't what drives me in RPGs.  Don't get me wrong - I'll certainly play in such a game and have fun with it, especially if I enjoy the people gaming with me, but it's not the most satisfying mode of play.  The B aspect, in particular, is something that's better out of game than in, with the F being the opposite.

The things that drive my enjoyment of RPGs are, in no particular order,

     1)  Fighting, the whole adrenaline thing

     2)  Exploration - seeing what's in the world, what's around the corner, what people are like, what cultures are like, etc

     3)  Puzzle solving - any intellectual challenge - tactical puzzles, detective work, riddles, mechanical puzzles, whatever

     4)  Method acting - acting according to my character's personality, first person conversation

     5)  Spy stuff - stealth in the dark, recon, surveillance, big elaborate plans to catch the bad guy, whatever

Given all that, I think MERP would work just fine for me.  It is hard to get away from the whole world being built around a single story, and not the one that you're doing, but that's an issue that can be dealt with.

Shark's reasons aren't really all that relevant.  MERP included Orcs and Trolls as player characters for a reason.

Player Friendly Campaign seeds for MERP

The white wizard Saruman is taking over the citadel of Orthanc, he's hiring and he needs agents who can handle some delicate interactions with the orcs.  He thinks they're not as bad as their hype and would like you to open relations.

The city of Umbar is a dark and dangerous place full of thieves and thugs like you guys.  There's a rich shipment of gold coming in from the southern colonies and you want a cut.

Emissaries from Mordor have approached the lord of Dorwinin he's looking for some escorts for his ambassador who can spot a Gondorian ranger in the bushes.

Gorblat and Grogmoth are brothers, they murdered their father but now they both want to be chief and they're both hiring human mercenaries.

There's a dwarven mine near town and lately there's a rumour that they're holding beautiful human girl prisoner.  A kindly old peddler woman has hired you to  free her.

I did write up a magic system that's about invoking and inciting spirits of creation that would work better for Middle Earth but honestly players really want fireballs.

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2023, 11:31:10 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on May 23, 2023, 10:08:41 PM
Aragorn and Arwen, and Sam and Rosie.

You forgot Eowyn and Faramir.

I left them out (as well as Galadriel/Celeborn, Tom Bombadil/Goldberry, Beren/Luhtien, et.al.) since we never see the sexual or romantic elements to the relationship. In the movies, we see Aragon and Arwen kiss, and we also see Sam and Rosie get married and have kids. But the rest? They may as well be platonic relationships for all we see. I was tempted to include Tauriel/Kili, but Tolkien didn't write those characters.

Do you remember the early rumors for Amazon's Rings of Power? The initial rumor was it was going to have Game of Thrones-level sex and violence. They must have fired that creative team, since RoP wasn't much different than LOTR in that regard. There's a romance between Arandir and the healer woman, and the dwarf and his wife argue like married couples do. I guess that counts, but it's not GoT by any stretch.

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2023, 11:31:10 AM
I still intend to push forwards with my Savage Worlds Middle Earth plans.

Look forward to hearing about it!

Quote from: S'mon on May 24, 2023, 03:44:30 AM
Treating Middle Earth as a genre or sub-genre, I think it does potentially have plenty of Fighting & Gold. But the complete lack of Booty, of sex as something that exists in-universe, is very striking. The complete lack of organised religion is also very striking. Taken together, I find this creates something very alien to real-world experience, which I think does limit appeal. It's far easier to GM & play in something resembling Westeros or the Hyborean Age.

I never noticed the lack of organized religion! But you are right. That is very unusual, given the immanent presence of the divine in the natural world of Middle Earth, as well as the meta-elements of (mild) Christian symbolism.

The Hobbits would definitely be into organized religion for the food options alone. Church potluck, Sunday 12:30. Second potluck, Sunday 2:30.

Quote from: Persimmon on May 24, 2023, 07:46:21 AM
FWIW I think that's a limitation of most settings based on well-known books/IPs.  How do you strike the balance between kick ass gaming in X and just replaying the book/movie, etc.?

I think The Mandalorian got that mostly right. You focus on the characters as the main protagonists, and use the existing fiction as background lore. Ideally, they should be more interested in the game events than the book/movie stuff, because it involves them directly.

Quote from: Aglondir on May 25, 2023, 04:59:15 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2023, 11:31:10 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on May 23, 2023, 10:08:41 PM
Aragorn and Arwen, and Sam and Rosie.

You forgot Eowyn and Faramir.

I left them out (as well as Galadriel/Celeborn, Tom Bombadil/Goldberry, Beren/Luhtien, et.al.) since we never see the sexual or romantic elements to the relationship. In the movies, we see Aragon and Arwen kiss, and we also see Sam and Rosie get married and have kids. But the rest? They may as well be platonic relationships for all we see.

Ah, you're thinking of the movies. In the books, there is a whole chapter focused mostly on the Eowyn/Faramir romance. I think there's more detailed romance than we get with Aragorn/Arwen or Sam/Rosie - though it's still pretty chaste. There's nothing close to sexual in Tolkien's writing that I recall.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 25, 2023, 06:09:01 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on May 24, 2023, 07:46:21 AM
FWIW I think that's a limitation of most settings based on well-known books/IPs.  How do you strike the balance between kick ass gaming in X and just replaying the book/movie, etc.?

I think The Mandalorian got that mostly right. You focus on the characters as the main protagonists, and use the existing fiction as background lore. Ideally, they should be more interested in the game events than the book/movie stuff, because it involves them directly.

I think particularly with some settings, there's a problem of being overshadowed by the main events of the original story. This goes for sequels like The Mandalorian as well as RPGs. If you're set before the main world-changing story, then you can't change the main outcome. If you're set after the world-changing story, then it can often seem like undoing the original ending.

The Mandalorian I think does well by being after the original story but smaller-scale so it isn't undoing the Empire's defeat.

Quote from: jhkim on May 26, 2023, 01:40:54 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on May 25, 2023, 04:59:15 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2023, 11:31:10 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on May 23, 2023, 10:08:41 PM
Aragorn and Arwen, and Sam and Rosie.

You forgot Eowyn and Faramir.

I left them out (as well as Galadriel/Celeborn, Tom Bombadil/Goldberry, Beren/Luhtien, et.al.) since we never see the sexual or romantic elements to the relationship. In the movies, we see Aragon and Arwen kiss, and we also see Sam and Rosie get married and have kids. But the rest? They may as well be platonic relationships for all we see.

Ah, you're thinking of the movies. In the books, there is a whole chapter focused mostly on the Eowyn/Faramir romance. I think there's more detailed romance than we get with Aragorn/Arwen or Sam/Rosie - though it's still pretty chaste. There's nothing close to sexual in Tolkien's writing that I recall.

I completely forgot about that part. It's been a while.