Kickstarter also cuts out the suits. Instead of people with investment capital deciding what products exist, consumers get to assume the risk instead, normally at an overall cheaper rate because there isn't a middleman also trying to make money.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1063732How are they successes, when most of them cannot deliver on time?  In any other business that would cripple, but not KS or IGGs.  Those are failures.  And they teach businesses that it's OK to lie to the customer.

Um... you havent followed many published games then have you? Announced releases are missed by weeks, months, or longer.

And quite a few KS actually do meet their deadlines.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1063784I've only backed a couple of kickstarters. Personally I don't really like it. I understand why people use it. I think for Board Games it seems to be a nice fit (it allows for people to make gorgeous pieces and boards, which probably would be less appealing if they were constrained by more caution). But for RPGs, I feel like it is starting to create a cycle that might not be great for the industry.

How so? It is not much different from the myriad indie RPGs that have come out. Some seeing really low print runs. KS for these works as it can save you some expenses by knowing exactly how many people want a copy.

I guess in a way KS is much akin to many POD services for RPGs. Except the RPG oft is not yet ready to print.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1063858Kickstarter also cuts out the suits. Instead of people with investment capital deciding what products exist, consumers get to assume the risk instead, normally at an overall cheaper rate because there isn't a middleman also trying to make money.

The problem crops up when the designer tries to charge the backers retail price as of all those middleman cuts. This is why I took to task that Traveller KS as they were charging retail prices.

Quote from: JRT;1063459...  It seems like larger companies like the videogame folks don't have this problem, and it works as intended as a way to get development finished and the item sold in traditional venues.  

Any thoughts?

There have been some pretty bad videogame kickstarters, but videogames barely are a drop in the bucket on kickstarter next to tabletop games.

Yes, Kickstarter and crowdfunding has largely become a pre-order system, and it doesn't really matter much IMO.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1063858Kickstarter also cuts out the suits. Instead of people with investment capital deciding what products exist, consumers get to assume the risk instead, normally at an overall cheaper rate because there isn't a middleman also trying to make money.

I think this is the greatest thing about kickstarter, it allows a mechanism for those niche products "experts" say won't sell. There are so many products beyond games that this applies to. There are so many products that we have today because somebody wanted it, and was told it was a bad idea by established companies so they had to start a business to make it.

How many things have we missed out on because the inventor sold the concept to a company that then just sat on it, or joined forces with an established company that then forced their conservative ideas changes changing the product into something far less innovative and interesting, or the inventor just stuck the design back in a drawer because they didn't have the financial means to bring it to market?
Kickstarter provides a way for regular people to back an idea with relatively minimal risk to all. Lots of people have bought shares in a startup that failed, so not seeing how the occasional kickstarter crashing and burning is a serious problem. All investment in a future product involves some risk.  

Quote from: Omega;1063977Um... you havent followed many published games then have you? Announced releases are missed by weeks, months, or longer.

And quite a few KS actually do meet their deadlines.

Again, not just games, delays are quite common in many industries and involve large multinational corporations as well as one man garage shops. Perhaps people are familiar with the F-35? Tesla Model 3? Apple I Phone?

Quote from: happyhermit;1063989Yes, Kickstarter and crowdfunding has largely become a pre-order system, and it doesn't really matter much IMO.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1063994Lots of people have bought shares in a startup that failed, so not seeing how the occasional kickstarter crashing and burning is a serious problem. All investment in a future product involves some risk.

Toadmaster's comment is precisely why I think it does matter that a lot of people are treating crowdfunding as nothing more than a pre-order system.  You're backing (or, if you prefer, "investing in", although I don't really think that's accurate either) something which frequently hasn't been developed yet, and may not have even been fully designed yet.  It's not a proper pre-order because the product development is still in an early enough stage that it could never be completed for any number of valid, legitimate reasons, but, if you're in the "pre-order" mindset, then the obvious conclusion when it ships late (or not at all) is that the project creator was a fraud, just out to scam people for a quick buck with no intention to ever deliver anything.  Which is not to say those people don't exist, but I've never seen any evidence to support the idea that fraud is the most common cause for failed/abandoned kickstarters.

Of course, there are exceptions, where the crowdfunding campaign really is, for all intents and purposes, a pre-order for a nearly-complete product which just needs to have a bit of final polish paid for.  Kevin Crawford/Sine Nomine Games is a prime example of this.  But that's the exception, not the rule.

Quote from: Omega;1063980The problem crops up when the designer tries to charge the backers retail price as of all those middleman cuts. This is why I took to task that Traveller KS as they were charging retail prices.

It's not just kickstarter it's even with PDF version of rpgs. So one does not have tho pay a printer nor shipping or distribution costs yet somehow the PDF is 5-10$ cheaper if that. Then they try and the usual bullshit of having to pay writers and artist. All fine yet they pocket the savings and charge close to the same price as print.

Quote from: sureshot;1064034It's not just kickstarter it's even with PDF version of rpgs. So one does not have tho pay a printer nor shipping or distribution costs yet somehow the PDF is 5-10$ cheaper if that. Then they try and the usual bullshit of having to pay writers and artist. All fine yet they pocket the savings and charge close to the same price as print.

They have to pay writers, the artist, the editor (hopefully there is one), and DriveThru's 30% fee.  It's not like costs go to $0 by using a PDF instead of a printed book.

Quote from: Apparition;1064100They have to pay writers, the artist, the editor (hopefully there is one), and DriveThru's 30% fee.  It's not like costs go to $0 by using a PDF instead of a printed book.

Exactly. As I'm actually in the process of getting a book ready I can tell you with certainty that the actual print cost isn't even half the expense of producing a book and that more than half of the rest of the cost has been things anyone not actually doing it would not even think of... taxes, lawyer fees to form an S-corp/LLC to limit potential losses, web hosting and development for a promotional site, the work of a copy editor, credit card processing (if you put a store on the site) and third-party processing (ex. DriveThruRPG), etc.

Even at bargain basement prices ($0.03 a word, $25 for a half page of line art) my player's guide is clocking in at 133,000 words (so $4000 and 140-ish pages of text) and 80 pieces of art (about $2000... though more expensive color art is a stretch goal... particularly since I do expect more PDF than physical sales). That's $6-10k just for content, plus another $10k in cost of setting up business.

So if I sold 1000 units I'd need about $16-20 on my end for the PDF just to break even. With DriveThruRPG's cut I'd need to sell the PDF at nearly $25-30 just to break even. If I sold the PDF for $35, I'd only make about $3.50 profit on each sale after DTRPG's cut and my expenses... so less money than I make in a month at my day job for easily 10x the effort and that's only if I managed to actually sell 1000 units.

So to summarize for anyone who thinks the PDFs are too expensive... You're actually getting a bargain.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064109So to summarize for anyone who thinks the PDFs are too expensive... You're actually getting a bargain.

I was referring to physical copies. But even so most small publishers do not go through so many processes to get a book out. Art is going to be the main hurdle. Most books are written by the designer themselves. So citing a price there seems a little odd. But I could see a publisher going that route.

Quote from: Omega;1064128I was referring to physical copies. But even so most small publishers do not go through so many processes to get a book out. Art is going to be the main hurdle. Most books are written by the designer themselves. So citing a price there seems a little odd. But I could see a publisher going that route.

You cite a price there because the designer deserves to be compensated for their writing... or should they have devoted hundreds of hours towards the project for free?

What if the designer is also an artist? Are they supposed to do all the artwork for free too and then release the PDF for free just because they did all the work themselves instead of hiring someone else to do it?

Quote from: Chris24601;1064144You cite a price there because the designer deserves to be compensated for their writing... or should they have devoted hundreds of hours towards the project for free?

What if the designer is also an artist? Are they supposed to do all the artwork for free too and then release the PDF for free just because they did all the work themselves instead of hiring someone else to do it?

I thought the designer- publisher keeps the net income on the work...

BTW re art, I can never understand why small print publishers buy artwork when they could get a much cheaper non exclusive licence. I have very rarely seen this used - an exception being The Hero's Journey which uses Mentzer art.

I think Kickstarter (and Indiegogo) has been great for RPGs (my delivery success rate's like 23/25 or better). Lots of times a high-quality, reliable small publisher doesn't have enough money to pay production costs up front for a product even where he knows there's good demand (much less something with uncertain demand). KS helps spread those up front costs to willing participants (like me). I don't see how this hurts the community or hobby or whatever in any way. For the people involved in these projects (like me), seems like it has been quite a good choice (because they wouldn't exist otherwise) and those that didn't participate can still buy it later (you're welcome). Plus, in no way does it prevent anyone with means from funding a project the old fashioned way if they want.

Sure, some projects have failed, but over the years, I have bought plenty of material funded the old fashioned way (usually big corporate funded stuff) that turned out to be total garbage and a 100% loss on my money. /shrug

I genuinely think these crowdfunding platforms have helped free us from dependence on big corporate capital gatekeepers, opening the door for lots of projects from small folks that would never have seen the light of day otherwise.

Quote from: Apparition;1064100They have to pay writers, the artist, the editor (hopefully there is one), and DriveThru's 30% fee.  It's not like costs go to $0 by using a PDF instead of a printed book.

I never said 0$ at the same time give me a reason to buy the PDF as well. If for example the print version is 40$ and the PDF is 35$ how am I exactly saving on purchasing the PDF. I also never said don't pay anyone don't also try and tell them that they don't price gouge the customer.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064109So to summarize for anyone who thinks the PDFs are too expensive... You're actually getting a bargain.

If the PDf price is not too much more than the print version. It needs to be a bargain both ways not just for the publisher. Note I'm not saying that PDFs are a bad thing I am slowing switching over between getting tired of buying the more expensive print copies and getting older and tired of lugging books around they are a useful tool to have. At the same time don't think your doing me a major favor as a rpg publisher if your PDF version is 5$ less or the same price as the print copy either.

I'm not one of those dumb gamers who don't think that rpg publishers should be compensated. I all for making money and profit. At the same time don't tell us your saving costs by using the PDF format then charge me like you would a print copy. To me a fair price for a 40$ print book would be at 30$. Anything more I have no reason to buy the PDF or just buy it when it's on sale. As the publisher needs to be compensated for their work they also need to give us the consumers a reason to buy PDF as well. Even then for a 30$ PDF it better damn well be more than 30-40 pages or your just simply ripping off the fanbase imo.