There have been a few recent announcements that make me wonder about the viability of Kickstarter--and I am not talking about those developers who promise and never deliver or are extremely late.  I am more concerned about the logistics of the system.

From what I understand, the whole original point of Kickstarter was for projects to get "seed money", enough money to produce the product, so that they can then continue with a traditional business model.  A lot of larger RPG developers seem to have done this.  But recent announcements give me pause.

Evil Hat has done several Kickstarters for their products, but recently they have to retrench due to having too many products:

https://www.evilhat.com/home/refocused-resized-hat-mode-activated/

John Wick recently came across a similar issue--he had two big Kickstarters, one which got a lot of capital, yet things are being retrenched.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5783-John-Wick-Presents-Lays-Off-7th-Sea-Staff

Finally, while not as bad, I am a little confused by Monte Cook's latest Kickstarter.  Invisible Sun was a success, but he's adding a second Kickstart to fund a "reprinting" of the core box, by offering various things for those that already have the cube, such as the supplements.  This seems a little strange--if the product is something that's supposed to be a hit, shouldn't the initial build have given them enough money to prime the pump.  (Of course that thing is expensive, but it feels like perhaps it should be a premium product that doesn't get reprinted often).

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/montecookgames/invisible-sun-return-to-the-actuality

So I have to wonder, is the trend toward Kickstarters making the larger publishers not see certain economic realities.  Since most of the core fan base will probably back a KS for a well-demanded product, are they making it impossible to use it the way it's intended, to bootstrap the business to be self-sustaining without going through Kickstarter?  It seems like larger companies like the videogame folks don't have this problem, and it works as intended as a way to get development finished and the item sold in traditional venues.  

Any thoughts?

I know PEG mainly does Kickstarters now as a form of marketing (they say so in their Kickstarters).

Buuuut, preorders are always extremely good for a company. You get that money sooner and can do more things with it. Pinnacle Entertainment Groups book quality has went up by a lot since they started using Kickstarter.

I think it's fine. KS is helping non-D&D publications actually get some capital and the companies that do the best KS would probably survive without the service but with less money.

Quote from: JRT;1063459Finally, while not as bad, I am a little confused by Monte Cook's latest Kickstarter.  Invisible Sun was a success, but he's adding a second Kickstart to fund a "reprinting" of the core box, by offering various things for those that already have the cube, such as the supplements.  This seems a little strange--if the product is something that's supposed to be a hit, shouldn't the initial build have given them enough money to prime the pump.  (Of course that thing is expensive, but it feels like perhaps it should be a premium product that doesn't get reprinted often).

On the Monte side, I think Kickstarter does a couple of things for him. It allows for a precise way to calculate how much inventory needs to be created by basically moving it into a pre-order system. How many people out there are still interested after that initial print run? It's been really hard for companies to truly gauge interest in a product. People often say one thing, but put their money elsewhere. It also allows him to order a print run in bulk, all at one time, which is cheaper. Those that didn't buy invis sun last time and wanted it should know to pick it up this run because it'll likely go out of print again shortly after. Finally Monte uses kickstarter heavily for marketing. It creates events for him to focus on, he can put out emails to everyone who bought in to an earlier "kickstarter event", and kickstarter tends to create it's own social media frenzy.

I don't think Monte is running into crash strap issues as he's been in the game for a long time and he doesn't seem to be expanding his company out all that much. I think he's pretty much embraced the new KS RPG business model of big kickstarter launch event with a lot of cash coming in, not much in sales after, then another big KS launch. PEG is doing this now too, but that company also has Shane who's been in the game nearly as long as Monte has.

I could easily see this model trip up a lot of companies especially if they don't have business experience(which a lot of rpg companies don't). Get a huge influx of cash, sales past that are nothing, plan on another KS for a cash infusion to keep the company running and if that KS goes long or your costs are high you're dead in the water.

I'm not sure why we're seeing this in rpg companies and not so much in other areas. Maybe because rpg companies are smaller and less experienced. Might be because they assume a business model(long tail of sales) that other companies don't and trip up when sales don't work out that way. Video game companies are pretty experienced with a large bulk sale, then starving until the next game comes out. Boardgames on KS seem pretty popular as well, but I don't know enough about that industry to say what, if any, problems KS is creating for them.

Ebooks and PoD books can be handled through various venues once the initial KS goes through.  However, boxes, dice and various other widgets don't work with a PoD system.  Second, third, etc Kickstarters allow for buying physical stuff in bulk while guaranteeing the items will be sold.  

Think of it as Periodic Print on Demand.

Here's why I love Kickstarter and see no value in "becoming traditonal".  In order of importance:

1. Kickstarter is a business model that allows you to price discriminate to offer more value to premium customers. There is virtually no other way to do this. Given the lop-sided holdings of wealth and income in our society, there is a sub-set of consumers who are happy to allocate a lot of money to their favorite hobby, and a large sub-set with no money to spare, and having a way to be able to offer more value to the former and still deliver product to the latter is amazing. For instance, my top backer on Player's Companion spent $5,000. That is worth more than 500 PDF backers. In an era when tabletop game sales are typically measured in hundreds or low thousands of units, that's simply spectacular.

2. Kickstarter allows me to get funds upfront. Piracy of PDFs is endemic in our industry. Every PDF book is freely available to anyone who wants to pirate it, and lots of people do. With a solid Kickstarter, it becomes a lot less painful to see the product be pirated.

3. Kickstarter allows me to modify my products based on feedback from the backers. For instance, in Domains at War, the players clamored for a platoon-scale system for combat that was a bit smaller scale than I had planned (company). But when enough major backers lined up to support it, I made it happen, and the product is better for it. In this way, Kickstarter takes the place of the alpha and beta test phases of a videogame.

4. Kickstarter has itself become a marketing and distribution platform. Some of "my" customers are actually fans of crowdfunding. If I did not do a Kickstarter, I would not reach those fans.

5. Kickstarter allows your fans to feel ownership in your product and encourages them to market it. Tons of people who have backed art in ACKS have later shown off the art and bragged about it. It makes the backer into a marketer.

For all of these reasons I would Kickstart a product regardless of how much funding I had or didn't have. It simply is a smart way to do business.

That said, most of you are aware that I did have one near-catastrophe with Kickstarter, on the Dwimmermount project, which ended up being several years late and cost me $20,000 in losses out of my pocket. So there are definitely ways to ruin your business with crowdfuning; I sure almost did.

A print run of a game is a significant investment for a small company. A well run Kickstarter campaign basically provides pre-orders + money for the first print run so the company doesn't have to tie up their own capital in it. It really makes a lot of sense, for fairly niche products that are largely targeted at existing fans.

It also makes sense even for larger companies that can afford the upfront development and production costs. I'm sure Steve Jackson could have afforded the cost of re-releasing The Fantasy Trip but the kickstarter provided visibility for the new product, provided them some gauge of interest to help them determine the size of the first print run. If futures sales ultimately flop the company isn't really out anything and they have still pleased existing fans who have been asking for a re-issue of the game for decades.


As far as it leading to the problems for companies that over promise, that is always an issue in hobby businesses where the owners often put the hobby side over good business practices. Under estimating production costs, shipping etc have caused several companies serious issues. Even experienced developers have gotten bit by that on occasion, things change rapidly, POD, and 3D printing have vastly changed the costs and means of production for small runs of a product. Something produced 5 years ago, might need a complete overhaul to take advantage of the changes in technology since the last run.

I don't think video games have any comparison to a physical RPG product. Much higher volume and little to no physical component.

This is a very interesting discussion and I am looking forward to hearing more thoughts. Big thanks to everyone!

I'd also like anyone's thoughts on how Goodman Games and Sine Nomine do their Kickstarters in comparison to others. I've been backers for both, but I'd like to see other peoples' experiences and comparisons.

Quote from: amacris;1063495That said, most of you are aware that I did have one near-catastrophe with Kickstarter, on the Dwimmermount project, which ended up being several years late and cost me $20,000 in losses out of my pocket. So there are definitely ways to ruin your business with crowdfuning; I sure almost did.

Ouch! Have you done a post-mortem blog about what happened?

If not, would you post about it here?

And in retrospect, was saving Dwimmermount the right decision? If you had to return to the scene of the crime, what would you do now that you didn't do then?

Quote from: JRT;1063459...

So I have to wonder, is the trend toward Kickstarters making the larger publishers not see certain economic realities.  Since most of the core fan base will probably back a KS for a well-demanded product, are they making it impossible to use it the way it's intended, to bootstrap the business to be self-sustaining without going through Kickstarter?  It seems like larger companies like the videogame folks don't have this problem, and it works as intended as a way to get development finished and the item sold in traditional venues.  

Any thoughts?

1) Strictly speaking, you're right. It's not being used to bootstrap a company. It's being used to bootstrap a product.
2) Because the demand - supply cycle feedback is so damn successful that you can continually bootstrap products and no one bats an eyelash at it. If you fail? So what? There's other product bootstrappers waiting in the wings to take your place.
3) Gaming Nerds make bad business people. This stereotype keeps being reinforced with each passing generation.

A savvy business person would probably push up the buy-in a bit, and then show a slice of the pie being dedicated to business expenses, start up costs, etc. Most people would likely complain. They just want cool shit for the cheapest price possible. "I'm not paying for your business."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063521Ouch! Have you done a post-mortem blog about what happened?

On the Dwimmermount thing, it was a pretty public failure and one of the early "how not to do things" lessons people point to for rpgs. Basically the product was being written by a third party with Autarch as the front/publisher. The third party ran into a lot of personal/family issues and sort of dropped off the map. That left Autarch to scramble and deliver on the kickstarter which they eventually did, obviously very late and over budget.

There were a lot of early RPG kickstarters like that. I remember Evil Beagle's Shaintar being another victim of something like this. The creator ran into personal issues and the product went real long. Honestly my impression of these kickstarters gone wrong is that they become personal nightmares for the people involved because they end up slaved to getting the product out years after the fact and are dealing with the constant displeasure of the fans they're trying to create content for. The #1 fix for this problem has been to not kickstart anything that isn't already basically written in the rough draft and try to do the same for bonus content. Basically let the KS be about fine tuning what's already written, adding art, play testing, paying for editing, etc rather than paying to write it in the first place.

Dwimmermount was also ridiculously underpriced. $10 for a PDF of a megadungeon? And what, $50 for a 600 page hardcover book plus two other small softcover books?

Still, a lot of that was filler, due to the OSR's insistence that 1e AD&D was icky or whatever, yet then has to add everything in 1e to either LL (B/X) or 0E (S&W)

Quote from: JRT;1063459There have been a few recent announcements that make me wonder about the viability of Kickstarter--and I am not talking about those developers who promise and never deliver or are extremely late.  I am more concerned about the logistics of the system.

Finally, while not as bad, I am a little confused by Monte Cook's latest Kickstarter.  Invisible Sun was a success, but he's adding a second Kickstart to fund a "reprinting" of the core box, by offering various things for those that already have the cube, such as the supplements.  This seems a little strange--if the product is something that's supposed to be a hit, shouldn't the initial build have given them enough money to prime the pump.  (Of course that thing is expensive, but it feels like perhaps it should be a premium product that doesn't get reprinted often).

So I have to wonder, is the trend toward Kickstarters making the larger publishers not see certain economic realities.  Since most of the core fan base will probably back a KS for a well-demanded product, are they making it impossible to use it the way it's intended, to bootstrap the business to be self-sustaining without going through Kickstarter?  It seems like larger companies like the videogame folks don't have this problem, and it works as intended as a way to get development finished and the item sold in traditional venues.  

Any thoughts?

1: You really do not understand the logistics then.

2: You really do not understand the logistics then.

3: You really do not understand the logistics then.

4: You really do not understand the logistics then.

x1: ahem... Ok. We go over this ALOT over on BGG. There are way way too many problems to list them all that the average joe and the average KS designer utterly fail to realize.

The biggest is the sheer logistics of running a KS instead of going to a publisher. 90% of the designers going to KS have these stars in their eyes about how now THEY are going to get ALL the money those mean ol publishers keep for themselves! No more 5% royalty! No more!

Aaaand promptly learn the hard way just how much goes into publishing a game. Because now YOU are paying for ALL of that. The artists, the printing, boxing, shipping, taxes. Not so mention any possible advertising you payed for. And possibly OTHER expenses. MORE if your game is art heavy or has alot of minis. MORE if you are shipping overseas. MORE if you plan to go retail.

Some KS are lucky if they break even. Theres lots of designer blogs about how in the end they either failed, or had to fulfill the KS out of their own pocket after all the funding was spent.

x2: Then there is the OTHER trip up. KS and CF in general are mercurial. It is of impossible to tell what will do well and what wont. Even product with alot of hype or fans it can fizzle. Or just break even. And this can tie back in to point x1. Under-performing in backers can actually add MORE unforeseen cost in the form of not meeting a certain target number to get a printing discount. There is also the advertising problem. Which brings us to...

X3: Then there is another trip up. No one will buy a product if you forgot to tell them it exists. This one comes up way too often. Designers putting their grand KS up. THEN announcing it. Or worse. Announcing it late into the KS because they can not figure out why only crickets are backing? You really need to announce your game ahead of the KS and get people aware, or better yet, interested in your product.

x4: Of course some games do actually sell enough to fund a second project. The vast majority do not. Those that do well tend to be by those who have thought out every step and have a really good idea of each hurdle. OR, have actually completed most of the steps beforehand and just need funding to go to print. OR are actually gouging the backers to make a profit. You actually see this last one tried alot. And that trick usually only works once before backers catch on and tell  the designer to go to hell.

But point 1 is the main problem. Now YOU are the publisher. You may be lucky of you get even 5% back. You can reduce that profit loss in a few ways. But then it becomes a much longer task as you become more than just the publisher and designer.

And this is not even touching on the growing problem that backers are getting increasingly wary of backing games due to the many many many scams or failures that left them with neither a product or a refund.

Hope that helps.

Quote from: Dracones;1063532On the Dwimmermount thing, it was a pretty public failure and one of the early "how not to do things" lessons people point to for rpgs.

The Dwimmer Fiasco was heavily discussed here before, during and after. However, the rescuing of the Dwimmermount Kickstarter, that process and its aftermath are areas I haven't heard much about. And since the publisher who lost $20k on rescuing the project is a poster here, its an opportunity to hear the post-KS facts firsthand.

Quote from: Dracones;1063532The #1 fix for this problem has been to not kickstart anything that isn't already basically written in the rough draft and try to do the same for bonus content. Basically let the KS be about fine tuning what's already written, adding art, play testing, paying for editing, etc rather than paying to write it in the first place.

Absolutely! Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine stands by that heavily and I agree with that idea.

Quote from: Omega;1063536We go over this ALOT over on BGG.

Is there a particular thread that you would recommend reading?

RPGs have an easier time on Kickstarter because of PDF/POD for a book is easy and Amazon / DriveThruRPG act as key distribution networks. Boardgames don't have those advantages.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063521Ouch! Have you done a post-mortem blog about what happened?

If not, would you post about it here?

And in retrospect, was saving Dwimmermount the right decision? If you had to return to the scene of the crime, what would you do now that you didn't do then?

I haven't ever done a post-mortem blog. I'm happy to discuss it here. I will do my best to recount it from memory. If anyone spots any errors, please let me know.

After the success of our ACKS and Player's Companion Kickstarters, I approached James Mal about doing a Dwimmermount Kickstarter. James was at that time a columnist for me at The Escapist penning "Days of High Adventure" and an avid blogger so we had a good working relationship. He was already very interested in doing a Kickstarter but at the time it was more difficult to do crowdfunding if you were not a US citizen. I offered, and he agreed, that Autarch would "front" the Kickstarter, setting it up, running it on the back-end, and handling customer relations, printing, and distribution. He, in turn, would collect the funds and manage the writing and production. It was not a work-for-hire; James was the senior partner and we were more of a shell that allowed him to tap KS. The idea was that Autarch would later benefit from revenue on the ongoing sales and from the publicity of having ACKS be supported by Dwimmermount.

We duly agreed, launched the KS, and raised a large sum of funds - the most we've done before or after (sadly). Dwimmermount was not in a state of great detail when the project began, but it was my presumption that this would simply be a matter of James fleshing out his GM notes etc. I was planning to work on our own Kickstarter, for Domains at War, so my business partner at the time, Tavis Allison, took on the management of the Dwimmermount KS.

Tavis did an able job, and initially things seemed to be going well. But an early alpha of the dungeon was widely ridiculed ("rats with copper pieces") and demoralized James Mal badly - a situation worsened by some severe health and family issues that rose up. Thereafter James began to have trouble meeting his deadlines and communication became more erratic. Tavis attempted to fill the gap but he also ran into some tough times as he and his wife began a divorce. Meanwhile, I was in the middle of trying to sell the Escapist (my day job), dealing with a sick wife (mito disease), and trying to do Domains at War. So I wasn't giving Dwimmermount my full attention either.

Tensions ran higher and higher as the project became more and more overdue. At some point Tavis and James entirely stopped communicating. I could not pretend to know the full reasons why. After weeks of trying to get in touch with James, ultimately Tavis and I were eventually able to reach him through his wife. We explained that there was an enormous personal liability associated with Dwimmermount that would fall on all of us if we did not release a product. He did not feel like he could finish it. So, after negotiation, we revised our agreement such that (a) Autarch received creative control - remember, up until that point, we only had publishing rights, no creative control - and (b) James returned all unspent funds for our use on art, layout, and production (up to that point he'd had the funds). Unfortunately "all unspent funds" was a small fraction of the original fundraising effort as much of the money had been spent by James on his expenses whilst writing.

I essentially worked a miserable six months of nights and weekends to finish the book. I ended up writing about 150,000 words to finish Dwimmermount, roughly doubling the content that had been created in the two years prior, and we released the product. I had to put in a capital contribution of about $20K to cover the costs of art, layout, and printing. I do not think it was a mistake to do this; it was the honorable course of action to our patrons who had backed and believed in us. The mistakes were what came before.

I can't say it was a profitable decision, though. When it was released, Dwimmermount did not sell much at all. A lot of attention in the OSR had either turned to 5E or to much more 'experimental' products; not only that, a lot of other megadungeons had been released. Moreover, James' blogging had dried up, and his audience drifted away when no dungeon was forthcoming. Finally, the megadungeon itself never really got a second look by those who had rejected it based on the early alpha. And, to be fair, a lot of people had bought-in because they wanted James Mal's Dwimmermount, not "James Mal's partially-completed Dwimmermount with the other half by that guy who did that game that's like D&D but has spreadsheets".

Lessons learned:
1. Have the core product in alpha before you launch the Kickstarter.
2. Do not crowdfund on behalf of a third party in reliance of their deliverables. Only Kickstart your own projects that you creatively control and can deliver yourself.
3. Do not attempt to do two major crowdfunding efforts at the same time.

Quote from: JeremyR;1063534Dwimmermount was also ridiculously underpriced. $10 for a PDF of a megadungeon? And what, $50 for a 600 page hardcover book plus two other small softcover books?

Still, a lot of that was filler, due to the OSR's insistence that 1e AD&D was icky or whatever, yet then has to add everything in 1e to either LL (B/X) or 0E (S&W)

You're 100% correct. This was a huge error we made because we didn't know how long the product was going to be, and we all fell into a trap of promising more-awesome-stuff-to-come when initial feedback was negative, such that the book spun out of control in size and scope. Dreadful.

We eventually raised the price of Dwimmermount's hardcovers but even so they're not very profitable.

Quote from: amacris;1063595We eventually raised the price of Dwimmermount's hardcovers but even so they're not very profitable.

I bought one at Orc's Nest FLGS - so full retail price - it's a nice book, I remember the price seeming quite reasonable for Orc's Nest standards.

You did an heroic job on Dwimmermount Alex, and I for one very much appreciate what you did. I'm sorry to hear it cost you so much time and money.