Quote from: jeff37923 on December 12, 2024, 08:31:00 PMIs it nostalgia if an older way or game is a more effective tool to achieve fun?

That is the wrong question to ask.

The right question is, "What makes the systems and techniques lumped under the OSR label effective tools?"

Given that we are well into the second decade of its existence, I think any debate over whether the OSR is nostalgia-driven or not is a moot point. It has outlasted many newer RPG systems by an order of magnitude.

As to the question I poised. My observation from playing RPG systems over the decades is that most are "good enough" as far as design and presentation goes. If I find something highly effective it is generally because it resonates with me but for my friends it is often just "That fun but it is just OK."

A few times we find something that is a hit for all of us but it is rarely part of some larger trend. For example there was a few years where we played a lot of Fantasy AGE and played around with making our own variants.

I have been involved in enough organized gaming to see that for most, "good enough" describes their attitude toward many RPGs.

Classic D&D in its various permutations is also a "good enough" system. What set it use by the OSR apart from nearly all but a few other RPGs is the fact its development today is propelled by many creative visions with new ones popping up all the time. It not dominated by a few or one creative vision.

What this means that if classic D&D for you falls short in one area or another there likely somebody out there that ran into the same problem and figured out a way of dealing with it without moving on to a completely new system. For example,  if you are looking for more grounded combat my Majestic Fantasy rules for OD&D covers that.  If you wished classic D&D covered science Fiction there is Stars without Number or White Star that covers that.

When it comes to creativity, any system that only has one creative vision behind it is a crippled setup compared to any system that has a multitude of creative visions behind it.

That is the secret to the OSR success.

Finally, if a system has a multitude of creative visions working with it, it is at the very least a "good enough" system as far its design goes. Any presentation issues tend to be fixed over time.

OK, it's that time of year to check if the jhkimAIbot is still functioning as intended.  So, step one, did it object to a generalized statement as if the statement was absolute?

Quote from: jhkim on December 12, 2024, 06:08:36 PMThere have been tons of rules-heavy games and rules-light games long before 3E D&D or the OSR. In my early teens in the 1980s, I played many rules-heavy games like Champions, Aftermath, Rolemaster, GURPS, and plenty of others. I had a ton of fun playing those.

OK.  That checks out.  Now, the next step in it's programming is to argue from "his" experiences, as if the plural of "anecdote" was "data."

Quote from: jhkim on December 12, 2024, 06:08:36 PMI also played a bunch of more rules-light games both then and now - like Fudge, FATE, Dungeon World, and plenty more. I had a ton of fun playing those too.

OK, it's working as intended there.  Now for the primary argument being against something no one has asserted (the good ol' strawman):

Quote from: jhkim on December 12, 2024, 06:08:36 PMAll games don't have to conform to one way of playing, whether that's OSR or anything else.

Well, I'm pleased to announce that the jhkimAIbot is working as intended.  It should be good for another year of random objections and slightly off-topic posting...

I think for me there is a big nostalgia associated with OD&D because of the era in which I played. The 1970's for me were middle school and early high school, where I had homework and a few chores and then a LOT of time to play OD&D with my friends. It's hard for me to separate my freedom of lifestyle from my freedom in gaming, and I look back on old school games as being those where I had little to prep and lots of time to game.

My family has embraced the 5E rules and loves the detail of skills, the way 5E handles magic, the background choices, and generally making characters with full motivation and backstory before even rolling their first die. I try to pull them back into a style matching old school and they resist. It really makes me wonder if it's the rules that I liked back then or the feeling.

Games made by passionate writers are always better than corporate slop. I was too young to have played any of the classic TSR IPs before they got dissolved by WotC, but I feel a sense of anemoia for that period I missed.

I've checked out clones like Mutant Future, Frontier Space, Alternity 2018, etc. but they're never good enough. The original scifi games never got SRDs so nobody can use the same alien races and stuff like they can use the D&D races and monsters. Indie games also have much tinier budgets and rarely have particularly interesting or detailed settings to work with.

There are neat indie games with great production values from time to time, like StokerVerse, but in general the rpg landscape looks grey, lifeless, derivative, and shallow. All the new, innovative, and interesting ideas are locked behind copyright, so nobody can use them until we're all dead of old age.

Quote from: finarvyn on December 13, 2024, 09:45:13 AMMy family has embraced the 5E rules and loves the detail of skills, the way 5E handles magic, the background choices, and generally making characters with full motivation and backstory before even rolling their first die. I try to pull them back into a style matching old school and they resist. It really makes me wonder if it's the rules that I liked back then or the feeling.

I run into that with some of my friends who would rather play D&D 5e than my Majestic Fantasy rules (based on OD&D). So two years ago, I said fuck it, and made my own take on 5e, focusing on character classes.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 13, 2024, 09:34:56 AMOK, it's that time of year to check if the jhkimAIbot is still functioning as intended.  So, step one, did it object to a generalized statement as if the statement was absolute?

Quote from: jhkim on December 12, 2024, 06:08:36 PMThere have been tons of rules-heavy games and rules-light games long before 3E D&D or the OSR. In my early teens in the 1980s, I played many rules-heavy games like Champions, Aftermath, Rolemaster, GURPS, and plenty of others. I had a ton of fun playing those.

OK.  That checks out.  Now, the next step in it's programming is to argue from "his" experiences, as if the plural of "anecdote" was "data."

Quote from: jhkim on December 12, 2024, 06:08:36 PMI also played a bunch of more rules-light games both then and now - like Fudge, FATE, Dungeon World, and plenty more. I had a ton of fun playing those too.

OK, it's working as intended there.  Now for the primary argument being against something no one has asserted (the good ol' strawman):

Quote from: jhkim on December 12, 2024, 06:08:36 PMAll games don't have to conform to one way of playing, whether that's OSR or anything else.

Well, I'm pleased to announce that the jhkimAIbot is working as intended.  It should be good for another year of random objections and slightly off-topic posting...

Hahahaha.

Solid post.

Quote from: finarvyn on December 13, 2024, 09:45:13 AMI think for me there is a big nostalgia associated with OD&D because of the era in which I played. The 1970's for me were middle school and early high school, where I had homework and a few chores and then a LOT of time to play OD&D with my friends. It's hard for me to separate my freedom of lifestyle from my freedom in gaming, and I look back on old school games as being those where I had little to prep and lots of time to game.

My family has embraced the 5E rules and loves the detail of skills, the way 5E handles magic, the background choices, and generally making characters with full motivation and backstory before even rolling their first die. I try to pull them back into a style matching old school and they resist. It really makes me wonder if it's the rules that I liked back then or the feeling.

Sir, how do you like 5E yourself?

Its not nostalgia for me. I started with AD&D 2nd edition. I managed to have fun in spite of the massive amount of rules. When I finally got around to playing 1e or the Black Hack, I understood that I wanted to get to the story part faster, and not the endless "hold on let me look that up" stuff. I think Rules light is best. Call that OSR if you like.

I have no particular love for old D&D, I moved from Holmes through AD&D to RuneQuest to heavily modified RuneQuest pretty fast in the old days but we still had the OSR playstyle and the lethality.

Yes, I am of believing that the older editions, or rather their "retroclones," are better to play.  I am having no strong opinion of specific older editions, as I did not play them - I was starting playing D&D during 3rd edition.  I was been enjoying it.  Then 4th edition came out and I was being uninterested in it after just a single game.  With 5th edition, I was being tired of what I and some of my friends called "rules bloat."  On a whim, we were trying Swords & Wizardry (because the book was being cheap), and I am decided that the fewer rules, are of making me happier playing the games. 

I found a lot of the OSR supporting mechanics and best practices to be really helpful on how to GM. Further I found the rapidity of processing in practice helped keep the game tempo refreshing. The rules seem complex upon reading, but once applied and internalized it's way faster than most WotC versions.

My biggest noticeable chokepoint in WotC is Individual Initiative and Individual Modifiers, what would be in AD&D 2e the third initiative option versus the original Group Initiative and Group Modifier. I think the insistence on GM NPC Planning followed by Players Declarations considerably cuts down on time loss. It requires people to be on top of the moment, answer or be stuck doing nothing, and then resolves without further re-processing. It also allows the unexpected to occur, which is exciting.

There's other stuff but that's a good start on how OSR feels better to play for me.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on December 11, 2024, 03:04:12 PM1. Combat took, on average 3-4 times longer than any other TTRPG on the market (that I had played and tested).

This is a complaint saw on Reddit too.

How the hell are people dragging out 5e D&D combat into freaking hours? When I DMed it combats were done in about the same time as BX or D&D. Bit longer on average. But not by a huge amount.

And I've heard the same complaints lobbied at every other edition and other RPGs too. gurps, Call of Cthulhu, etc.

People. What the fuck are you doing to take that god awful long?

Quote from: Omega on December 14, 2024, 02:26:43 AM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on December 11, 2024, 03:04:12 PM1. Combat took, on average 3-4 times longer than any other TTRPG on the market (that I had played and tested).

This is a complaint saw on Reddit too.

How the hell are people dragging out 5e D&D combat into freaking hours? When I DMed it combats were done in about the same time as BX or D&D. Bit longer on average. But not by a huge amount.

And I've heard the same complaints lobbied at every other edition and other RPGs too. gurps, Call of Cthulhu, etc.

People. What the fuck are you doing to take that god awful long?

Perhaps it's decision paralysis?  Perhaps it's looking up spells and rules to try to make the most optimized decision possible? 

Quote from: Man at Arms on December 13, 2024, 03:41:48 PM

Quote from: finarvyn on December 13, 2024, 09:45:13 AMI think for me there is a big nostalgia associated with OD&D because of the era in which I played. The 1970's for me were middle school and early high school, where I had homework and a few chores and then a LOT of time to play OD&D with my friends. It's hard for me to separate my freedom of lifestyle from my freedom in gaming, and I look back on old school games as being those where I had little to prep and lots of time to game.

My family has embraced the 5E rules and loves the detail of skills, the way 5E handles magic, the background choices, and generally making characters with full motivation and backstory before even rolling their first die. I try to pull them back into a style matching old school and they resist. It really makes me wonder if it's the rules that I liked back then or the feeling.

Sir, how do you like 5E yourself?

Well, I don't mind playing it but a lot of the time I don't bother to fill out all of the parts on the character sheet. (Don't always update skill bonuses, pick a few spells and don't update as I advance, etc.) I'm sure that's a character flaw for me personally, but I'm more into the fun than the minutia.

Where I dislike 5E is mostly on the DM side of the screen. Monsters have these long and absurd writeups that I only half read, so many types of damage to deal with, NPCs are as detailed as PCs ... again, the details are more of a bug than a feature when I DM the game and I feel like they slow down the action.

Quote from: Omega on December 14, 2024, 02:26:43 AM

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on December 11, 2024, 03:04:12 PM1. Combat took, on average 3-4 times longer than any other TTRPG on the market (that I had played and tested).

This is a complaint saw on Reddit too.

How the hell are people dragging out 5e D&D combat into freaking hours? When I DMed it combats were done in about the same time as BX or D&D. Bit longer on average. But not by a huge amount.

And I've heard the same complaints lobbied at every other edition and other RPGs too. gurps, Call of Cthulhu, etc.

People. What the fuck are you doing to take that god awful long?

From what I have observed, especially with the younger generation, the individual turns perpetuate the long combat as the no attention span players zone out when it isn't their turn, then need to figure out everything that has happened since their last turn and dedcide what to do. Then they take their turn and go back to instagram or whatever......repeat.