Quote from: jgants;568698But we still spent 15 mins watching a Will Wheaton video on YouTube explaining it because they didn't really remember it well and were confused.

A 15 minute video of Wil Wheaton explaining it, or playing it?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;568619All of my data shows otherwise.  So unless you can show some data that supports your position, I can only go by my own customer base and figures.  Which are about the opposite of what you have said above.

Are you actually making the claim that a sizable percentage of the people buying your games are utter and complete newbies, buying the game in isolation from any other gamer who would teach them how to play, essentially having chosen your specific game as an impulse purchase without any prior knowledge of what an RPG is?

RPGPundit

I'm saying that I've sold several hundred copies of my game, and have received over a dozen emails from people who hadn't played RPGs before and were asking basic questions.  And if I've had more than a dozen people email me, then I'm sure there are a lot more who haven't bothered that are in the same boat.

Besides, even if it were just one or two people, isn't that worth a brief blurb that everyone else can easily skip?

As for the 'unless your name is Hasbro' PoV, I think that can easily be taken too far.  If we consider that the 'how to RPG' section isn't valid any more, can we also stop defining common concepts like how to roll to hit?  Stop defining 'saving throws'?  'Armor'?

Personally, I don't think we should.  The core book should contain everything necessary for play, even for noobs, wherever possible, IMO.  Otherwise you run the risk of people bringing contrary assumptions to the table.

Also, chalk me up to the 'no harm done' tally.  Are we seriously going to put forward that every page of even the best-written RPG ever is useful?  I'm the sort of guy who doesn't even read certain sections of a game unless I absolutely have to do so.  E.g. spell lists...

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;567143Thanks for the feedback, all. I was curious if it was a shared sentiment, or simply just me being a bit grumbly. Here's my first draft in the ZWEIHÄNDER book about what I feel is a role-playing game. Obviously, I am a bit biased but I would appreciate any constructive criticism. If I've missed the mark, please tell me.

I'd like to believe I am a pretty good writer...but before you begin tearing it apart, please realize that this is a rough draft and hasn't even made it into the hands of my editor:

My first impression here is that this is a bit 'thick'.  It's just a style thing, but I want to skip over parts of it in a TLDR sort of way...

I'd suggest you tackle it in cognitive 'bites'.  Remember, you're talking to someone who may be completely new to this hobby.  Define the game (story, dice = decision, etc), then the players and their characters, then the GM.

Other than the presentation concept order, I think you've definitely touched all the bases.

Quote from: mcbobbo;569006As for the 'unless your name is Hasbro' PoV, I think that can easily be taken too far.  If we consider that the 'how to RPG' section isn't valid any more, can we also stop defining common concepts like how to roll to hit?  Stop defining 'saving throws'?  'Armor'?

As a matter of fact, yes. You only have to define how these things work in your game; not what they are.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Sacrosanct;569000I'm saying that I've sold several hundred copies of my game, and have received over a dozen emails from people who hadn't played RPGs before and were asking basic questions.  And if I've had more than a dozen people email me, then I'm sure there are a lot more who haven't bothered that are in the same boat.

Yep, I find in many cases there's a big disconnect between the internet community and the real world, witness GMSs claim that most publishers wouldn't touch rpgnet with someone else's, despite it being the largest RPG site online for now.

Regardless would it not be a good idea to fold the question in with some useful information that even experienced GMs might not be familiar with, like some tips on good GMing?