Although I know not many people here are novice role-players, I have found that the vast majority of books always seem to include this little tidbit within the first few pages.
Am I crazy, or is it an absolute necessity to spell out what a role-playing game is (even to the uninitiated)? Is it useless page filler?
Alternatively, some RPGs bake it into their description of their game, right up front.
Thoughts and opinions? I'd love to hear about any books you'd recommend that have great introductions to the system and settings.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;566957Although I know not many people here are novice role-players, I have found that the vast majority of books always seem to include this little tidbit within the first few pages.
Am I crazy, or is it an absolute necessity to spell out what a role-playing game is (even to the uninitiated)? Is it useless page filler?
Alternatively, some RPGs bake it into their description of their game, right up front.
Thoughts and opinions? I'd love to hear about any books you'd recommend that have great introductions to the system and settings.
Potentially, every game is someone's first. Putting in a "what is an RPG" section benefits them, with
absolutely no detriment to people who don't need to read that section. It also shows the experienced roleplayer what
you, the author, think an RPG is about, which is sometimes useful.
(Anyone who considers having to skip a page of text a hardship, or it's inclusion a fault with the game, isn't worth leaving that page out for.)
Quote from: Ladybird;566962Potentially, every game is someone's first. Putting in a "what is an RPG" section benefits them, with absolutely no detriment to people who don't need to read that section. It also shows the experienced roleplayer what you, the author, think an RPG is about, which is sometimes useful.
(Anyone who considers having to skip a page of text a hardship, or it's inclusion a fault with the game, isn't worth leaving that page out for.)
I agree 100%. I've never understood why it's such a turnoff for so many experienced gamers. I mean, some people get downright offended by it. No, I'm not trying to belittle you. This is for the new people. Just skip the page if you want.
I put in a link to Levi Kornelsen's the Fudamentals of Roleplaying pdf and admit bafflement.
-clash
Usually these "What are RPGs" sections say right at the start, "If you're familiar with the concepts of RPGs, skip this part".
Why didn't you just do that? Like has already been said, EVERY RPG book out there is a potential first time experience for someone to RPGs.
Quote from: Ladybird;566962Potentially, every game is someone's first.
This.
My first RPG purchase (WEG Star Wars) was not an intentional entry into role-playing. I'd played Gold Box TSR computer games beforehand, but I picked up the book knowing it was a game, but not really grasping "role-playing" yet.
25 years later, I know a little bit more, but those "What is an RPG?" pages don't bother me any.
Don't put a 'what is an RPG?' section in your book. Put a 'what is this RPG?' section in your book. That not only helps any random newbies that might stumble across your game, it also helps more experienced gamers understand what the intended purpose of play is, and what makes it different from other games they might be familiar with. If they read it, obviously.
Quote from: soviet;566984Don't put a 'what is an RPG?' section in your book. Put a 'what is this RPG?' section in your book. That not only helps any random newbies that might stumble across your game, it also helps more experienced gamers understand what the intended purpose of play is, and what makes it different from other games they might be familiar with. If they read it, obviously.
THIS!An "RPG" does not mean the same thing to everyone and it helps to know what the author was expecting when they wrote the game.
=
The best place for a "What is an RPG" section is on the back cover of the book.
Quote from: soviet;566984Don't put a 'what is an RPG?' section in your book. Put a 'what is this RPG?' section in your book. That not only helps any random newbies that might stumble across your game, it also helps more experienced gamers understand what the intended purpose of play is, and what makes it different from other games they might be familiar with. If they read it, obviously.
I agree. In this day and age, 'role playing games' aren't some weird, unknown gaming type. Explaining everything from scratch is rather unnecessary at this point, but detailing the purpose or general intent of a particular game is a good idea.
Quote from: Ladybird;566962Potentially, every game is someone's first. Putting in a "what is an RPG" section benefits them, with absolutely no detriment to people who don't need to read that section. It also shows the experienced roleplayer what you, the author, think an RPG is about, which is sometimes useful.
(Anyone who considers having to skip a page of text a hardship, or it's inclusion a fault with the game, isn't worth leaving that page out for.)
This man speaks the truth.
(I could have sworn Ladybird was a woman, Ben...)
Quote from: Ladybird;566962Potentially, every game is someone's first. Putting in a "what is an RPG" section benefits them, with absolutely no detriment to people who don't need to read that section. It also shows the experienced roleplayer what you, the author, think an RPG is about, which is sometimes useful.
(Anyone who considers having to skip a page of text a hardship, or it's inclusion a fault with the game, isn't worth leaving that page out for.)
Where's the damn like button when you need it?
I agree completely.
No.
Do not put a section explaining what your game IS, just clearly explain how to PLAY, and your players will get the idea from that.
So I'm at the hobby shop the other night, and convince a bunch of M:TGers to play the Pathfinder starter set.
When I say "roll a D6", they look at me like I've sprouted eyestalks (and we're not talking 8 year olds here...one ten year old, the rest old enough to drive, a couple could drink).
They've never played a RPG before, and even if they had some idea of what one was, I don't see how it hurts things to put in a few paragraphs if "what is this game".
Short answer to OP: Yes, absolutely.
Quote from: Novastar;567056(I could have sworn Ladybird was a woman, Ben...)
I thought Ladybird was actually a guy, despite the handle. Ladybird? Guy or girl, please?
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;566957Am I crazy, or is it an absolute necessity to spell out what a role-playing game is (even to the uninitiated)? Is it useless page filler?
I think that:
(1) The roleplaying hobby and industry would be healthier if more RPGs were written to be accessible to new players. This would mean including a section on "What is an RPG?", but it also means including a detailed description of the game structures (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/15126/roleplaying-games/game-structures) necessary for actual play.
(2) Since the vast majority of RPGs do
not include a description of the actual game structures necessary for play, the little "What is an RPG?" blurbs they do include are completely pointless wastes of space.
If the rest of your game requires that the reader has already mastered the techniques of running and playing an RPG, then the audience for your book does not require a definition of the medium.
Quote from: Benoist;567089I thought Ladybird was actually a guy, despite the handle. Ladybird? Guy or girl, please?
Definitely a guy!
Thanks for the feedback, all. I was curious if it was a shared sentiment, or simply just me being a bit grumbly. Here's my first draft in the ZWEIHÄNDER book about what I feel is a role-playing game. Obviously, I am a bit biased but I would appreciate any constructive criticism. If I've missed the mark, please tell me.
I'd like to believe I am a pretty good writer...but before you begin tearing it apart, please realize that this is a rough draft and hasn't even made it into the hands of my editor:
-------------------------------
Most readers will already be familiar with tabletop role-playing games and how they work. For the uninitiated, a role-playing game is very similar to improvisation. It is not so different than a game of pretend - an interactive story where you drive the action, drama and suspense by taking on the role of someone else. A group of people create alternate personalities called characters, developed using a script of rules similar to the book you’re holding in your hands right now. Players are actors within a story, portraying an alternative personality using first and third person perspectives. They speak with one another as these personas and rely on a Gamemaster (sometimes referred to as a GM) to presents the world their characters live in. The Gamemaster produces the exposition as a storyteller, playing the part as author of the world the characters inhabit and the non-player characters they interact with. The GM also referees the decisions players make within the game as their characters, acting impartially and fairly, advocating no one position. The Gamemaster must be imaginative, because they’ll often be called upon to make up details and information about the world and other people within it on the fly. Players can change the outcome of the story by making decisions “in-character”; meaning, using the persona they’ve created for themselves. These decisions drive the challenges within the story, resolved with most tabletop role-playing games by using dice. The GM will adjudicate the results of these dice rolls and produce a narrative that encapsulates what players’ characters are experiencing. Experienced Gamemasters will develop an ongoing story arc, persistent in that the game world is impacted by the choices players make in-character, whether they be small or large. Oftentimes, they will create their own gaming world (called a campaign world), encapsulating themes they feel best represent the fantasy world players interacting within. Some Gamemasters may adopt elements from popular television shows, author an alternate history derived from our own world, borrow stories from popular fantasy novels to produce their own version or use published campaign worlds from other role-playing publishing studios.
Most people have no idea what an RPG is.
On the occasions I discuss this hobby, occasionally people have heard of DnD (and think it's some sort of boardgame or something), but mostly people have no idea what RPGs ARE or how they work.
It's not like it's going to kill you to have to skim past a few pages explaining what an RPG is and TBH they usually write what an RPG is from THEIR game's POV anyway. TRy reading the blurb from say DnD compared to white Wolf's Vampire. Quite different.
If you want to be able to bring more people into RPGs (other than via introduction from friends or Gamer parents showing their kids) then they need to be accommodating to newbies.
tldr;
RPGs are still an unknown, they needs an intro.
Quote from: danskmacabre;567151Most people have no idea what an RPG is.
Yet despite this most people have played an RPG at some point in their lives.
The thing that throws new players off is not the subject, but the
details surrounding RPG gaming. Even simply the different kinds of dice used are a bigger barrier than not understanding what roleplaying is.
And no other form of game has a section which tells you
what it is beyond maybe a blurb on the back of the package. Why should RPGs be any different?
Quote from: chaosvoyager;567160Yet despite this most people have played an RPG at some point in their lives.
I donot agree with this statement. Based on my experience, most people have NOT played an RPG ever in their lives (well tabletop RPGs anyway).
and it's probably increasingly less so with PCs, consoles, facebook etc etc..
Occasionally I meet someone (usually a 30+ person) who said they had a go in college or knew of people who played that sort of thing.
QuoteThe thing that throws new players off is not the subject, but the details surrounding RPG gaming. Even simply the different kinds of dice used are a bigger barrier than not understanding what roleplaying is.
Hmmm certainly when I have introduced RPGs to newbies, I have to start from scratch what an RPG is. They almost always assume it's just basically a boardgame like monopoly, but with a fantasy flavor or something.
Actually I guess the initial perception is it's something like the "Talisman" boardgame.
QuoteAnd no other form of game has a section which tells you what it is beyond maybe a blurb on the back of the package. Why should RPGs be any different?
Because RPGs are really unlike other types of games (board games, cards games) they need to be explained from the ground up.
No. Let's be honest: Your customer base, will hate it, unless its somehow a miraculous version no one has ever managed to write that will draw players like flies.
Quote from: Silverlion;567182No. Let's be honest: Your customer base, will hate it, unless its somehow a miraculous version no one has ever managed to write that will draw players like flies.
Will hate an intro to RPGs blurb, like over a few pages?
Heh I hadn't even thought about it until this thread came up.
Why is is such a Drama? can't people just turn the pages and carry on as normal?
Saying "No, the customer base will hate it" is a pretty all encompassing and general statement IMO.
RPGs are a niche hobby to the extreme and publishers should make the core rules of a product as noob friendly as possible, well unless they're making a product specifically targeted to a core experienced RPG customer base, in which case sure exclude an intro if you like and whatever other noob friendly material as well, but then you will probably have a small customer base.
Quote from: Silverlion;567182No. Let's be honest: Your customer base, will hate it, unless its somehow a miraculous version no one has ever managed to write that will draw players like flies.
What customer base? Silly people that post on forums?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;566972I agree 100%. I've never understood why it's such a turnoff for so many experienced gamers. I mean, some people get downright offended by it. No, I'm not trying to belittle you. This is for the new people. Just skip the page if you want.
I agree - but I think deep down many experienced players get offended because these explanations are just different enough from their own perspectives that they believe its misleading newbies.
I usually read these. Sometimes they reveal something about the new game that should have been included in other parts of the game.
Quote from: Ladybird;567125Definitely a guy!
O thank god...
(farts)
Quote from: danskmacabre;567186Will hate an intro to RPGs blurb, like over a few pages?
Heh I hadn't even thought about it until this thread came up.
Why is is such a Drama? can't people just turn the pages and carry on as normal?
You'd think so, but yeah. I've seen it. People are tired of being told what it is--after the fifth or sixth book its just noise to most people, but a few people react to noise differently, and sometimes quite negatively.Partly since they've read someone's version of this all before--just as good or bad, as the one in any new game book that is being planned.
Let us not even talk of game-fiction
QuoteRPGs are a niche hobby to the extreme and publishers should make the core rules of a product as noob friendly as possible, well unless they're making a product specifically targeted to a core experienced RPG customer base, in which case sure exclude an intro if you like and whatever other noob friendly material as well, but then you will probably have a small customer base.
How many new players does the game alone bring in? How many have you seen brought in? Most of those I've seen brought in were either surges in the 80's and 90's (White Wolf), and many of them were brought in by others, not the the writing in the games themselves. It masses into a lot of dead trees in the long wrong, or wasted bits in the e-forms. Its a waste of space for most people, which could be better used by play aids.
Quote from: Silverlion;567410You'd think so, but yeah. I've seen it. People are tired of being told what it is--after the fifth or sixth book its just noise to most people, but a few people react to noise differently, and sometimes quite negatively.Partly since they've read someone's version of this all before--just as good or bad, as the one in any new game book that is being planned.
I try to avoid basing my decisions on the complaints of annoying whiners.
Quote from: chaosvoyager;567160Yet despite this most people have played an RPG at some point in their lives.
The thing that throws new players off is not the subject, but the details surrounding RPG gaming. Even simply the different kinds of dice used are a bigger barrier than not understanding what roleplaying is.
And no other form of game has a section which tells you what it is beyond maybe a blurb on the back of the package. Why should RPGs be any different?
If by RPG you mean "create a character and go kill ten rats", then there have been quite a few people who have played an RPG.
However, a bit of perspective:
- There are about 300 milllion people in the U.S.
- If every WoW sub was from the U.S., that's still a touch over 3% of the population.
- Since WoW is a global phenomenon, and Blizz never releases where their subs come from, it's pretty reasonable to assume that maybe 5 million subs are from the U.S. which means less than 2% of the population plays an MMORPG like WoW.
- Even factoring in games like Skyrim, I think it's safe to say that the population of the U.S. that has played a video game version of an RPG is around 5%.
So no, most people haven't played RPGs. Considering that I know quite a few people who still think D&D is "that nerd game" or "that Satanic game", I'd say that a "What is an RPG?" is very much warranted.
Quote from: Silverlion;567410How many new players does the game alone bring in? How many have you seen brought in? Most of those I've seen brought in were either surges in the 80's and 90's (White Wolf), and many of them were brought in by others, not the the writing in the games themselves. It masses into a lot of dead trees in the long wrong, or wasted bits in the e-forms. Its a waste of space for most people, which could be better used by play aids.
Exactly. Everyone knows what a role-playing game is by now. The specifics of using books and dice are different than on a computer or console, but it's not some bizarre idea anymore. New gamers are brought in by current gamers*, and they already know what they are doing. In 1980, describing what RPGs are was a good idea. But three decades later, we've won; people know what we do and generally how to do it.
Now, using the space to talk about what that
particular RPG does is brilliant. It gives novices and veterans alike a good idea of what to expect, which is far, far more useful than the 35 hojillionth iteration of "What is an RPG?".
*
cue stories of how people started playing by themselves. Hint: the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'
Quote from: danskmacabre;567162Based on my experience, most people have NOT played an RPG ever in their lives (well tabletop RPGs anyway).
Really, then why does almost every 'what is an RPG' section start with referring to things like playing Cowboys & Indians as a child? Roleplaying is not a unique behavior. In fact, it is so ununique that the kids who don't exhibit it are often singled out as having issues.
And yes, not many people have played a
tabletop RPG. That's the point, and why I said the things new players are most confused by are the elements
specific to that, like dice.
Quote from: danskmacabre;567162Hmmm certainly when I have introduced RPGs to newbies, I have to start from scratch what an RPG is. They almost always assume it's just basically a boardgame like monopoly, but with a fantasy flavor or something.
Actually I guess the initial perception is it's something like the "Talisman" boardgame.
Some of the best roleplaying I've ever done has been in Talisman :)
The biggest difference between Talisman and a Traditional RPG is that there's no GM. And the GM bit is one of the biggest reasons RPGs are not more popular, both because it's
unusual, and because it requires more complexity.
So let players make that assumption. If the game is well designed, they'll adjust that assumption after reading
how it works. If it turns out it wasn't what they were looking for when they bought it, they can return it. Seriously, how many D&D players were brought into the fold by getting something D&D related and having
no idea what it was? I started with the Monster Manual, and didn't even know there were two
completely different kinds of D&D until later.
Quote from: danskmacabre;567162Because RPGs are really unlike other types of games (board games, cards games) they need to be explained from the ground up.
Our opinions differ. In fact, the more I play all sorts of games, the more I find them similar.
Quote from: danskmacabre;567186Why is is such a Drama? can't people just turn the pages and carry on as normal?
Page count is costly. Wasted words are poor design.
Quote from: danskmacabre;567186RPGs are a niche hobby to the extreme and publishers should make the core rules of a product as noob friendly as possible
More people play RPGs now than ever before. It's just that it's not the same
game now.
@ Chaosvoyager, I'm not going to answer all your points in detail as you have gone waaaay beyond the scope of the discussion, which was Tabletop RPGs not Cowboys and Indians as an RPG.
Most people donot know what RPGs are in terms of what were talking about. Talisman is not an RPG, it's a board game with some RPG elements.
So unless you can keep this conversation in context I will stop here.
Quote from: StormBringer;567420Exactly. Everyone knows what a role-playing game is by now.
Do they? really? not in my experience..
QuoteThe specifics of using books and dice are different than on a computer or console, but it's not some bizarre idea anymore. New gamers are brought in by current gamers*, and they already know what they are doing. In 1980, describing what RPGs are was a good idea. But three decades later, we've won; people know what we do and generally how to do it.
Computer RPGs are not the same and people don't necessarily make the connection between computer RPGs and Tableotp RPGs.
for that matter a lot of people don't play computer games. Within your social circles perhaps, but there are OTHER groups of people out there too.
I could mention Skyrim, Baldur's gate, Neverwinter nights to many people and they'd have no idea what I'm talking about.
Most people WILL however know about Super mario....
I'm sure many new gamers ARE brought in by current gamers, but are you saying that ALL are? I doubt that very much.
You seem to have a very narrow band of perception about this.
QuoteNow, using the space to talk about what that particular RPG does is brilliant. It gives novices and veterans alike a good idea of what to expect, which is far, far more useful than the 35 hojillionth iteration of "What is an RPG?".
They can just put that in too (and may well do for all I know).. it's not going to take up much space..
Quote from: StormBringer;567420Exactly. Everyone knows what a role-playing game is by now. The specifics of using books and dice are different than on a computer or console, but it's not some bizarre idea anymore. New gamers are brought in by current gamers*, and they already know what they are doing. In 1980, describing what RPGs are was a good idea. But three decades later, we've won; people know what we do and generally how to do it.
Now, using the space to talk about what that particular RPG does is brilliant. It gives novices and veterans alike a good idea of what to expect, which is far, far more useful than the 35 hojillionth iteration of "What is an RPG?".
* cue stories of how people started playing by themselves. Hint: the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'
Trust me, not everyone knows what an RPG is. Or if they do, they think you're talking about Halo. (Real exchange: "No, not a FPS, but an RPG." "Who gives a fuck if I get to kill things?")
Remember, just because the 1970s/80s geeks grew up and had kids doesn't mean that everyone didn't. All of the people who despised RPGs and Nerds and everything that RPGs represented grew up and had kids of their own, and fed them all of their own stereotypical opinions about such "nerdy" and "unmanly" or "ew gross!" activities.
I would just like to say when I released Compact Heroes, even though I had a blurb about what an RPG is like, I received several emails from people who had never played an RPG before and had a lot of questions about really basic stuff we all take for granted.
I know this is purely anecdotal, but I think it would be a mistake to assume everyone knows what an RPG is already, or that your game isn't bringing in new people. Having that blurb there is more important to the people who need it than it is for those very few who get upset by it rather than just turning the page.
And no, in the context of the entire rpg, having 1 page is insignificant cost wise.
Quote from: chaosvoyager;567160Yet despite this most people have played an RPG at some point in their lives.
I think you may have a ridiculously broad definition of what a RPG is.
Quote from: StormBringer;567420* cue stories of how people started playing by themselves. Hint: the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'
So, I would have been plain shit out of luck if Space 1889 had skipped it. I had no idea (or just a vague one) what an RPG was when I picked it up and had nobody to inform me otherwise. It may be an anecdote but it sure as hell matters to me.
Quote from: Machinegun Blue;567672So, I would have been plain shit out of luck if Space 1889 had skipped it. I had no idea (or just a vague one) what an RPG was when I picked it up and had nobody to inform me otherwise. It may be an anecdote but it sure as hell matters to me.
And when did you first pick up Space 1889?
Quote from: StormBringer;567726And when did you first pick up Space 1889?
1890.
Quote from: danskmacabre;567556@ Chaosvoyager, I'm not going to answer all your points in detail as you have gone waaaay beyond the scope of the discussion, which was Tabletop RPGs not Cowboys and Indians as an RPG.
And yet that's EXACTLY what most introductions to what an RPG is refer to.
Have you ever actually READ a 'What is an RPG' section? Because it doesn't sound like you have.
Quote from: danskmacabre;567556Most people donot know what RPGs are in terms of what were talking about. Talisman is not an RPG, it's a board game with some RPG elements.
It doesn't matter, because new players will engage with the similarities and adapt with the differences, and in the end understand the game they're playing far better than if they read some silly introduction.
One thing that drives me up a wall about geek culture is that they require VERY specific definitions for things. Most people however don't NEED to know what an RPG is in order to start playing one. Just tell a person how to play a game, and they'll be able to figure out the rest.
Here's a thought: The reason RPGs have an intro to tell people what they are is because they are so
complicated and
involved that it takes a bothersome amount of
time and
effort to figure out what they are simply by reading the
rules and/or
playing.
THAT'S the problem.
Quote from: jeff37923;567592I think you may have a ridiculously broad definition of what a RPG is.
Playing a character or role and making decisions based on that persona's point of view.
Kids play house, play doctor, play high tea party, play with dolls and action figures all the time. If anything this is natural, and modern society specifically conditions us to grow OUT of it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;5677281890.
Yes, quite precocious old chap! Shall we pop off for a spot of tea and discuss the matter?
Not on your nelly.
Tut, tut. Well, I must be off, then. I believe your overcoat is in the drawing room, I trust you can see yourself out...
'cor blimey, Mary Poppins, it's a real pea souper.
Quote from: chaosvoyager;567729Here's a thought: The reason RPGs have an intro to tell people what they are is because they are so complicated and involved that it takes a bothersome amount of time and effort to figure out what they are simply by reading the rules and/or playing.
THAT'S the problem.
Unlike, say, football or baseball.
I will concede that perhaps fewer people are familiar with RPGs than I claim, but I still assert there are more than 'What is an RPG' supporters consider.
Quote from: StormBringer;567726And when did you first pick up Space 1889?
1991ish? Yes, at the time I had heard of D&D. It was some board game about fantasy and stuff that was all dangerous and things. I was playing Rogue Trader for a while by then.
Quote from: Machinegun Blue;5678291991ish? Yes, at the time I had heard of D&D. It was some board game about fantasy and stuff that was all dangerous and things. I was playing Rogue Trader for a while by then.
That's what I mean. Even in '91, RPGs weren't exactly well known to most, but they were hardly an exclusive club . Two decades later, I think a decent number of people - even if they aren't geeks - have at least a vague idea what RPGs entail. Explaining the specifics of a game should fill in the gaps well enough.
Besides, very few people wander into a hobby store and impulse buy a rulebook without having a grasp of what it's about. Sure, there is the occasional well meaning parent that picks them up for their kids without knowing if they are interested or not; but even added together, those are very rare cases. In the vast majority of cases, I would guess, people are introduced by current players.
@ chaosvoyager I still see you're going on about cowboys and Indians and playing houses.
Well when you have something relevant to say I'll make an effort to answer properly.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;567737Unlike, say, football or baseball.
Actually, Football and Baseball are quite similar in complexity to RPGs, and even inspire a more extreme form of tribalism.
Still, I'm never asked about WHAT Football or Baseball ARE, only HOW THEY ARE PLAYED.
Quote from: chaosvoyager;567880Actually, Football and Baseball are quite similar in complexity to RPGs, and even inspire a more extreme form of tribalism.
Still, I'm never asked about WHAT Football or Baseball ARE, only HOW THEY ARE PLAYED.
Um, you don't have geeky kids or cousins, do you?
Quote from: chaosvoyager;567880Actually, Football and Baseball are quite similar in complexity to RPGs, and even inspire a more extreme form of tribalism.
Still, I'm never asked about WHAT Football or Baseball ARE, only HOW THEY ARE PLAYED.
Since we're talking about football, this entire discussion actually reminds me of John Madden: I've lost count of the number of football fans who say they hate John Madden because half the stuff he says is "obvious".
That's because John Madden was extremely effective in making the game more accessible to people unfamiliar with it. Sure, it's "obvious" to the jaded football fan of 30 years. But whenever I had a girlfriend I was trying to get to watch football with me, I would always try to make sure the first few games they watched had John Madden doing the commentary.
The same people who rag on John Madden for commenting on the "obvious" stuff are the exact same people ragging on RPGs for trying to be accessible to new players.
This is relevant. (http://xkcd.com/1053/)
Quote from: Justin Alexander;568154The same people who rag on John Madden for commenting on the "obvious" stuff are the exact same people ragging on RPGs for trying to be accessible to new players.
As someone who has had a LOT of success introducing new players to RPGs (in much the same way as the cartoon you link to), I still say that telling them how to play, and like Madden, explaining to them
what they just saw/did, is much more useful than any intro to RPGs I've ever read, almost all of which reference
other things, like playing pretend or old time radio plays, which the reader STILL has to be familiar with to gain anything useful from.
Are RPGs theater? Because that's a prevalent example, and yet most roleplayers say it isn't theater. Are RPGs stories like you read in books? Even more people are familiar with that, but pretty much everyone here will say they're NOTHING like RPGs, and then go bugnuts crazy.
If you break it down and try to explain
what an RPG is, without any supporting examples of similar hobbies or activities, what you end up with is very close to telling people
how to play in the first place. And considering that many RPGs have trouble simply doing the latter, I'd rather writers focus on that.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;568154This is relevant. (http://xkcd.com/1053/)
Even that cartoon you reference features someone
showing someone
how something works, not
telling them
what it is. That usually gets an idea across far more effectively, and it gives the student more room to make up their own mind about the subject at hand.
Right now? In this day and age?
Unless:
a) your name is "Hasbro"
b) you are spending at least $50000 in publicity or investing at least $200000 to get your book into Walmart
There's no fucking point whatsoever in doing a "What is roleplaying" section. Its the most idiotic piece of filler in any RPG book and usually born out of a delusional or narcissistic notion on the part of the author that somehow people will find his book who have never actually played a game before and he'll be the one to introduce them to the wonders of the hobby.
That won't happen. D&D (maybe Pathfinder) can introduce people to the wonders of the hobby. You? Your book will be bought by 45-65 year old guys with excessive facial hair who have been playing the game at least since Boy George was considered the hottest young musician.
Its possible a newbie will play your game, if you're lucky and someone else is doing their job, but they will have it explained to them by the experienced gamer who actually bought your book first and brought the newb into the hobby.
The best "what is roleplaying" section I could have is to have excellent GMs running my games. Aside from that, I'm not going to waste 5 pages of space that could be full of Utter Awesome on the offhand chance that somehow somewhere some random dude will find the book completely out of the blue and has been living in such a hole the last 30 years that he not only can't suss out what an RPG is but lacks any ability to just look it up on the internet himself. That fucker DESERVES to not understand, if he's really that dim.
RPGPundit
Quote from: chaosvoyager;568190As someone who has had a LOT of success introducing new players to RPGs (in much the same way as the cartoon you link to), I still say that telling them how to play, and like Madden, explaining to them what they just saw/did, is much more useful than any intro to RPGs I've ever read, almost all of which reference other things, like playing pretend or old time radio plays, which the reader STILL has to be familiar with to gain anything useful from.
I just can't buy into this quixotic quest to prove that metaphors aren't a useful form of communication.
Quote from: RPGPundit;568460That won't happen. D&D (maybe Pathfinder) can introduce people to the wonders of the hobby. You? Your book will be bought by 45-65 year old guys with excessive facial hair who have been playing the game at least since Boy George was considered the hottest young musician.
Its possible a newbie will play your game, if you're lucky and someone else is doing their job, but they will have it explained to them by the experienced gamer who actually bought your book first and brought the newb into the hobby.
All of my data shows otherwise. So unless you can show some data that supports your position, I can only go by my own customer base and figures. Which are about the opposite of what you have said above.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;568604I just can't buy into this quixotic quest to prove that metaphors aren't a useful form of communication.
I'm not doing this and you know it.
The value of metaphors as a communications tool depends on how familiar the reader is with the subject matter. And being
too familiar with the subject in question can be much worse than just having trivial knowledge of it, because there's stronger carry over.
Should I be telling people what RPGs are using sports metaphors? What kind of audience would I get? What kind of concepts would the readers carry over from sports into RPGing?
Count me in as one of those people who thinks every book is someone's first and that the section should be there. It is also usually only a page or less so I'm not seeing where omitting it is a big help to page counts, etc.
I find the claims of "everyone knows what roleplaying games are" to be utterly bizarre and like born out of not having much interaction with people in other social circles.
The term "roleplaying" can elicit thoughts of video games, therapy methods, intimate activities between fetishists, or nothing at all by most of the population of the USA, much less the world.
Sure, many people in their 30s and 40s might remember the name "Dungeons & Dragons". I suppose some former parents now in their 60's or 70's might remember, but they might not (moral panics tend to be forgotten quickly once the world moves on to a new one); and they aren't likely to be starting up playing RPGs now either.
There is, of course, a vast amount of the population that are neither children of the 80's nor parents of them. People in their teens and 20s weren't around for the haydays of the 1980s, for example.
Even within the people in their 30s and 40s, their knowledge primarily extends to "I vaguely remember hearing about some nerdy game called Dungeons and Dragons - something to do with dressing up or devil worship or something..." or "I saw a D&D cartoon once..." or at best "I sort of remember playing D&D once but it was kind of weird and I didn't really understand it..."
I think the last example is far more common than some people realize - Yes, a lot of people might be first shown RPGs by someone else (as I was), but not everyone really understands exactly what it was they were doing (I didn't really "get" D&D, much less other RPGs, until much later). Not everyone is that great of teacher or really explains how the games actually work, and not everyone remembers how games work that well if they are experiencing something new and/or focused on socializing.
This isn't a phenomena unique to RPGs either - just last Friday I had a boardgame night with some friends who just bought Tsuro (one of the simplest games to learn short of Candyland) because they played it once and liked it. But we still spent 15 mins watching a Will Wheaton video on YouTube explaining it because they didn't really remember it well and were confused.
Or back in the 80's, when my parents got together with their friends and played Clue. They were utterly perplexed by it (I was slightly disappointed when we bought our own copy later and discovered that it is a much simpler game than I was led to believe).
It's worth noting as well that the cost in terms of space is pretty tiny - we're talking, what, a page at most explaining what an RPG is. It's not like we're talking about some massive chapter of stuff. It's a tiny percentage of your page count that most people will just safely ignore but about three people will absolutely treasure. I have too much respect for my potential customers to not bother explaining things to them.
Quote from: jgants;568698But we still spent 15 mins watching a Will Wheaton video on YouTube explaining it because they didn't really remember it well and were confused.
A 15 minute video of Wil Wheaton explaining it, or
playing it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMtlQxJeWvc)?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;568619All of my data shows otherwise. So unless you can show some data that supports your position, I can only go by my own customer base and figures. Which are about the opposite of what you have said above.
Are you actually making the claim that a sizable percentage of the people buying your games are utter and complete newbies, buying the game in isolation from any other gamer who would teach them how to play, essentially having chosen your specific game as an impulse purchase without any prior knowledge of what an RPG is?
RPGPundit
I'm saying that I've sold several hundred copies of my game, and have received over a dozen emails from people who hadn't played RPGs before and were asking basic questions. And if I've had more than a dozen people email me, then I'm sure there are a lot more who haven't bothered that are in the same boat.
Besides, even if it were just one or two people, isn't that worth a brief blurb that everyone else can easily skip?
As for the 'unless your name is Hasbro' PoV, I think that can easily be taken too far. If we consider that the 'how to RPG' section isn't valid any more, can we also stop defining common concepts like how to roll to hit? Stop defining 'saving throws'? 'Armor'?
Personally, I don't think we should. The core book should contain everything necessary for play, even for noobs, wherever possible, IMO. Otherwise you run the risk of people bringing contrary assumptions to the table.
Also, chalk me up to the 'no harm done' tally. Are we seriously going to put forward that every page of even the best-written RPG ever is useful? I'm the sort of guy who doesn't even read certain sections of a game unless I absolutely have to do so. E.g. spell lists...
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;567143Thanks for the feedback, all. I was curious if it was a shared sentiment, or simply just me being a bit grumbly. Here's my first draft in the ZWEIHÄNDER book about what I feel is a role-playing game. Obviously, I am a bit biased but I would appreciate any constructive criticism. If I've missed the mark, please tell me.
I'd like to believe I am a pretty good writer...but before you begin tearing it apart, please realize that this is a rough draft and hasn't even made it into the hands of my editor:
My first impression here is that this is a bit 'thick'. It's just a style thing, but I want to skip over parts of it in a TLDR sort of way...
I'd suggest you tackle it in cognitive 'bites'. Remember, you're talking to someone who may be completely new to this hobby. Define the game (story, dice = decision, etc), then the players and their characters, then the GM.
Other than the presentation concept order, I think you've definitely touched all the bases.
Quote from: mcbobbo;569006As for the 'unless your name is Hasbro' PoV, I think that can easily be taken too far. If we consider that the 'how to RPG' section isn't valid any more, can we also stop defining common concepts like how to roll to hit? Stop defining 'saving throws'? 'Armor'?
As a matter of fact, yes. You only have to define how these things work in your game; not what they are.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Sacrosanct;569000I'm saying that I've sold several hundred copies of my game, and have received over a dozen emails from people who hadn't played RPGs before and were asking basic questions. And if I've had more than a dozen people email me, then I'm sure there are a lot more who haven't bothered that are in the same boat.
Yep, I find in many cases there's a big disconnect between the internet community and the real world, witness GMSs claim that most publishers wouldn't touch rpgnet with someone else's, despite it being the largest RPG site online for now.
Regardless would it not be a good idea to fold the question in with some useful information that even experienced GMs might not be familiar with, like some tips on good GMing?