...as in :emot-rock:  ?

When I last asked around for a good rules system for low-fantasy, a lot of people mentioned Iron Gauntlets. I had a quick look at some reviews and was wondering what got everyone so excited. A dice pool mechanism with a rather small spread suggests a game that could mostly be lauded for its simplicity.

So I was wondering what people might say. In what ways does IG rock?

Well, yes, simplicity! You say that like it's a bad thing!

But also extreme flexibility. You can effortlessly shape the game because of the modularity of how things are constructed.

-clash

for me it the fact that the system is very simple but does not leave you feeling like you drank a lite beer.

It is very flexible and easy to modify to suite your campaign. The production values are top notch.

Could you give me an example about this flexibility?

FUDGE is easy to change, GURPS is, heck, if you know it even D20 is. So where did you _apply_ this modularity in practise?

Or let me give an example. For my new game, I think it would be important to stretch the difference between a trained fighter and someone who's learned his stuff on the streets. A pure success chance is not enough, as they both might be pretty good, but one should be a little more sophisticated.
In GURPS I'd do it with combat maneuvers and different skills, in D20 it would probably come down to feats and maybe class abilities, in FUDGE I could (and would have to) implement whole subsystems. In TROS, we would have two different combat styles with different available maneuvers. How would I apply this in IG? As an alternative, present me two hokey Kung Fu styles

Quote from: SosthenesCould you give me an example about this flexibility?

Gladly.  But I'll clue you into what makes it flexible, first:

The system doesn't care if you monkey with it.  It's loose and free-wheeling, so that changes are easy to make without disturbing anything else in the mix.  It's very unconcerned with rigidity.

Now, the example: In my campaign setting, there's a Chivalrous order called the Knights of the Ring Argent.  They're knights errant dedicated to adventure and wandering.  Well, the existing Knight vocation (aka "Class", "profession", whatever) doesn't map really well to my little sword-wielding vagrants.  What to do, what to do...?

So I made my own Vocation.  Since a Vocation is just a collection of appropriate skills (bought one-for-one with points) and the occasional required Background, it was ramen and hot dogs to make one up.  Hell, it took me longer to write up the description than it did to write up the skills list.

Nothing to it.  Because there doesn't need to be a lot to it; the system only requires the minimum possble in order for you to go get your characters into (and back out of) trouble.  It's like the designer said, "Okay, we started out with games that were real simple, then got into complex and sophisticated systems and subsystems, and now let's take what we've learned and go back to that 'whatever, let's play' feel and method."

Brett Bernstein posts here, maybe he'll come around and tell you what he was really thinking.

Need a new monster?  Simply choose the ranges for its stats, add some skills (leave the actual scores off, though, so you can customize further, later), assign some Gimmicks (aka "Advantages", "Special Attacks", "Powers", "Feats", etc.), decide how much damage it does and get to whackin'.  Gimmick you want isn't in the book?  Well, they're not that complicated, so just write something down and away you go.  Can't find a modifier for a specific condition? Assign one.  You're the GM, you know what's appropriate.

Your different fighters can be simulated with both different Vocations (i.e. skill sets) and Styles (which allow you to use a certain skill to accomplish actions that normally require other ones -- say, using Dueling instead of Athletics to leap off of a balustrade and onto an opponent, as per  your "Swashbuckler" style).  Bing!  Fries are up!

Make stuff up.  Go fast.  It's OK.  Iron Gauntlets doesn't mind.  It's your sportscar, not your Mom.

I downloaded IG yesterday, mainly to see how their free-form Crafting/Fabrica  rules stood up.  In general, it's Dungeons and Dragons with functional Storyteller-system dicepool mechanics.  Which is a *good* thing, I hasten to say.  Despite the statistical weirdnesses of Storyteller itself, the main selling point of that system was that it was one of the few game systems I got right off the bat.  IG's neat use of "stat as pool, skill as roll under difficulty, successes as TN" avoids the fistful-o'-dice syndrome that stat+skill dicepools are prone to.  The Impresa system is like PiG games in general: clean, simple, nothing fancy, but with a decent level of genre emulation in the subsystems.

    As for the Crafting magic system, not bad at all.  I still prefer Mage spheres, to be honest.  But for a freeform system it defines understandable powers with broad applications.

    It didn't inspire me like, say, Coyote Trail.  But then it's been a while since D&D style fantasy games turned my crank.  One thing I'd love to see Brett do is a genreDiversion or Impresa game based on WWII, which he mentioned he'd wanted to do.   The armour rules in Impresa seem suited to simulating tanks and other armoured vehicles, I think.

Ah, yes.  The magic.  I did find it a little underwhelming, but if I recall aright, the magic rules in Steampunk Musha are swankier.  And anyway, the whole thing is so functional that kitbashing your own magic rules is pretty easy to to.  

That's if you don't want to just use your D&D Player's Handbook...

It's a funny thing. All I hear lately is that the magic system isn't doing it for you. When the game was first released, people praised the magic system for being the best they've seen in a while. I think the game is now grabbing the attention of people were were devout d20 players and MUST have individual spells in their diets to do anything. I emplore you... shake the monkey you call spells.

Thanks to Dr Rotwang! and others in the PIG forums, you can use OGL spells with Iron Gauntlets now fairly easily, though I prefer the existing systems - after all, there are 4 diverse types of magic (6 with those in Steampunk Musha, and a 7th in Unorthodox Barbarians/Druids/upcoming Iron Gauntlets Companion, and an 8th in the upcoming Unorthodox Scribes).

OK. I got that out of my system. I think Dr Rotwang! pretty much understands the goal of Iron Gauntlets.

As per the example of the trained fighter and someone who's learned his stuff on the streets ----- the closest existing comparison in the game is warrior versus man at arms: the warrior is more rounded with training in all forms of combat, animal handling, athletics, and legends (perhaps from his tribe), while the man at arms specializes in streetwise, brawling, and melee. Different vocations are prone to have different skills - you can easily create your own vocations to reflect this.

Styles can also make the difference (these are optional for beginning characters). You could create a style for street-fighting, where the character may fight dirty and get a bonus for throwing sand in the eyes and groin kicks, for example. A martial style, on the other hand, could provide a bonus on parrying against swords or rolling from a knockdown. It's up to you.

I hope that helps.

Okay, so from what I've read, it's a dice pool system (with pools in the lower/middle single digits), skill-based and with some pre-packaged background options, plus the usual (dis-)advantages. Got that right?

The flexibility comes from its simple nature, as there's not much that can get in the way -- which is a line I've heard quite often from the C&C guys.

All in all rather interesting, let's see if I can get a hardbound copy somewhere here in Germany... But it seems that for my next campaign it won't be appropriate. I need something with a little more breadth for that, as the general archetypes of the characters will be pretty similar and I expect a lot of growth. It'll probably compete more with Savage Worlds at the table than with  GURPS and the D20 derivates...

Quote from: pigames.netIt's a funny thing. All I hear lately is that the magic system isn't doing it for you. When the game was first released, people praised the magic system for being the best they've seen in a while.

It's not that I don't like it; it's that I just wasn't as blown away by it as I was by the rest of the game.  Personally, I think I'm just not doing it right.

I don't need spells, I just need...I dunno, to read the rules again, maybe.  

I was a little lost in there, really, when my player wanted to cast a fireball and I had no idea how much damage he should be allowed to do with it.  It ended up being 5D, and that's WAAAAAAY too much.

I think that only thing about IG that isn't outstanding is the magic system, and I said that from the begining. It's not bad, but it's not in my top five magic systems either.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I was a little lost in there, really, when my player wanted to cast a fireball and I had no idea how much damage he should be allowed to do with it.  It ended up being 5D, and that's WAAAAAAY too much.

I see what you're saying. Look at this way. Magic isn't about inflicting harm directly. By creating the fireball, you inflict standard fire damage, plus a little extra with overkill on the task. Yeah?

Quote from: McrowI think that only thing about IG that isn't outstanding is the magic system, and I said that from the begining. It's not bad, but it's not in my top five magic systems either.

Go with the OGL spell usage then - the more people who try them and report back, the more I can refine them.

The early reviews claimed that the magic system was the highlight -  Everyone's looking for something different. You've got to have a split personality to make everybody happy

Quote from: pigames.netI see what you're saying. Look at this way. Magic isn't about inflicting harm directly. By creating the fireball, you inflict standard fire damage, plus a little extra with overkill on the task. Yeah?

I dig.  But how about something like a Magic Missile -- magic that IS about causing harm?  I mean, if that's in your campaign setting.

I think the most important thing to not here, however, is this:  the rules are so malleable and modular that a brand-new, customized magic system wouldn't be that hard to create.

Or to post in the collaborative section, heh heh heh.

EDIT:  Oh, and to answer Sosthenes' original question:

Yes.

EDIT AGAIN:  RE: Magic Missile etc. -- I suppose you could set a difficulty for the effect and establish that it'd do, say, 1 INJ if it succeeds; then, account for overkill to get extra damage.

YOU SEE?!  IT WAS THAT EASY!

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I dig.  But how about something like a Magic Missile -- magic that IS about causing harm?  I mean, if that's in your campaign setting.

This is what I've been talking about on the PIG forums. As Yoda would say, Unlearn what you have learned. Forget about magic missiles. If you want to inflict direct damage, use the salubrity effect of materia. If you want to launch a magic missile, it's no different than throwing a knife at someone. Crafting magic is different. You need to approach it differently. You're hung up on a specific type of magic.

Or, use the OGL conversion.

Quote from: pigames.netYou need to approach it differently. You're hung up on a specific type of magic.

Or, use the OGL conversion.

I'd rather do the former, because I think your system has merit.