Is the word "grognard," as it applies to gamers, pejorative (http://mw2.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pejorative)?
Grognard was originally a nickname of the veteran soldiers of Napoleon's old guard (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grognard), "
les vieux de la vieille." In the 1970s, the term was applied to wargamers (http://www.alanemrich.com/Writing_Archive_pages/grognard.htm):
Quote"The term 'grognard,' as applied to veteran wargamers, was first coined back in the early 1970's by John Young. He was, at that time, an employee for [the board] wargame publisher SPI, and the use of the term around the office (and among the local play testers) soon led to 'grognards' being mentioned in one of SPI's magazines (Strategy & Tactics). Several hundred thousand board wargamers picked up the term from that publication and it spread to computer wargamers, as the the board wargamers (the ones with PCs, of course) were the first people to snap up computer wargames when they appeared.
"Consider this a first hand account, not an urban legend. I actually heard John Young utter it the first time and was one of the people who razzed him about it for some time thereafter. I was also the one who actually put the term into circulation in Strategy & Tactics [during my tenure there as Editor]." - Jim Dunnigan
The term was later appropriated by roleplaying gamers, but among the latter the connotations are often quite negative (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/278846-grognard-good-grognard-bad.html).
QuoteIf you can get someone to take the position of "Fun! I don't play this game for fun, sonny-boy!", they are the grognard.
The grognard hates new games because they are not exactly like the old games.
QuoteBasically, from what I've seen, someone who self-identifies as a "grognard" is someone who has drawn a line in the sand, demarking where they stand; anyone on the other side of the line is against them, whether the anyone knows or cares to be.
Usually, that line is drawn before AD&D2.
QuoteTalking about french soldiers during the Napoleonic war is all well and good, but in the context of the gaming community grognard has been around for a long time, and has had consistent negative undertones for well over 15-20 years at least; since the beginning of the internet. Again, at least. I'm being conservative to be cautious.
For some segment of the gaming population, grognard is a rank insult, but it was not always thus.
How do you use it, if you use it at all?
Quote from: The Shaman;393449How do you use it, if you use it at all?
I don't use it in in real life at all. Thats because I've only seen it used in online discussions in a mostly negative way.
The one time I heard it used in a real in-person way was at a game store where 4 or 5 of us were talking about RPGs. I mentioned that i used to receive the original
JTAS magazine in the real-mail system at my house in a protective wrapper.
One of the other gamers said: "God, you really are a TRAVELLER grognard"
...but he said it with a grin on his face as if to say: "THank God I found another one!"
So I knew he meant as a sort of compliment.
Anyone on here ever been called ' Scooter Trash' and didn't know that it was actually a type of compliment?
- Ed C.
I take it as a compliment. It means we've been in gaming a while and didn't come along after it had been around for a long time and we didn't drift in via MTG or WoW.
I take it in a Napoleonian context. It means that you are a seasoned veteran, with a strong, vocal opinion of what you like and don't like. You've seen a lot, and you know it. There's a strong notion of loyalty to something implied in the term also. So it's not pejorative term to me, and it is meant as such, it actually kind of makes me smile, thinking of the Napoleonian origins of the term, which the Emperor meant as a jest, a joke about his most trusted followers.
I picked it up probably around the time I found Dragonsfoot. It sounds weird, saying it, so I don't use it that often in conversation, but I don't mind the term.
I could give less of a shit what some coconut head at enwurld thinks about the word, whether it's a pejorative term to them or not.
Someone once described wargames as being "fat, bald and opinionated."
Well, I am fatter than I want to be, I'm not bald thank god and I am certainly opinionated.
I'd rather be opinionated than be some bleating little sheep who never has the spine to form or express an opinion any day.
So bring on the term "grognard". I'm not ashamed of it.
It is certainly overused, and has become meaningless through dilution. I believe I will soon start calling myself a Landsknecht; it is still fresh, plus there are all those halberds... ;)
For me the grognards are everything that is wrong about the hobby.
They are a bunch of old people, playing mostly games that were made before 1990 and their biggest contribution to the hobby is a whole lot of bitching and moaning about anything that was made after Vampire 1st ed (or even earlier in some extreme cases) for no real or some imagined reason.
So I guess that would be an insult.
Disclaimer: I am not saying that everybody who gamed since the beginning of the hobby is like that.
Quote from: Saphim;393463For me the grognards are everything that is wrong about the hobby.
They are a bunch of old people, playing mostly games that were made before 1990 and their biggest contribution to the hobby is a whole lot of bitching and moaning about anything that was made after Vampire 1st ed (or even earlier in some extreme cases) for no real or some imagined reason.
So I guess that would be an insult.
Disclaimer: I am not saying that everybody who gamed since the beginning of the hobby is like that.
So games have an expiration date?
We should throw out D&D, traveller, call of cthulhu, The morrow project, champions, rifts and all other games that predate 1990?
Just out of curiosity, should movies stop being watched after so many years? At what time do movies like casablanca, the maltese falcon and 2001 a space odyssey become unacceptable to watch?
I have a copy of one of my early games, ringworld, and it's still better than a lot of the stuff produced today.
Back in my day, "Grognards" were the guys who played wargames (the more complicated, the better) but didn't play RPGs.
Over time, the term somehow evolved to mean "guys who play old-school RPGs".
It was somewhat pejorative back when it had the old definition. Today some use it pejoratively, but those who would be defined as "grognards" mostly seem to wear it as a badge of pride.
RPGpundit
Not pejorative enough, obviously.
The term carries a connotation of not only liking old games, but also being derisive toward new games.
Quote from: Saphim;393463For me the grognards are everything that is wrong about the hobby.
They are a bunch of old people, playing mostly games that were made before 1990 and their biggest contribution to the hobby is a whole lot of bitching and moaning about anything that was made after Vampire 1st ed (or even earlier in some extreme cases) for no real or some imagined reason.
So I guess that would be an insult.
Disclaimer: I am not saying that everybody who gamed since the beginning of the hobby is like that.
"Old men...running the world. A new age! ... Old men are the future!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi7JRJrod4)
Quote from: two_fishes;393471The term carries a connotation of not only liking old games, but also being derisive toward new games.
Based on what, exactly? Where does this connotation come from?
Any man of good taste should be derisive of most new games. So (because a dislike of new games is not special but standard for everyone of good mental health) a grognard is definitely someone who plays wargames and thinks of RPGs as the new thing.
What I ALWAYS wanted to know: how is grognard pronounced by americans? I have somehwere in the internet seen stuff like "grog-blog" which makes no phonetic sense, so I am very keen to understand how american RPGers pronounce it.
Quote from: Settembrini;393476Any man of good taste should be derisive of most new games. So (because a dislike of new games is not special but standard for everyone of good mental health) a grognard is definitely someone who plays wargames and thinks of RPGs as the new thing.
What I ALWAYS wanted to know: how is grognard pronounced by americans? I have somehwere in the internet seen stuff like "grog-blog" which makes no phonetic sense, so I am very keen to understand how american RPGers pronounce it.
I don't know how most people pronounce it here in America, but I pronounce it "groan-yard". I mostly hear it in connection with wargames, but its use is definitely growing in regards to RPGs. I find it funny because many people that use the term probably don't know how to properly pronounce it.
I don't know where the connotation comes from, but that is my sense of it, based on how I've seen it pejoratively used.
Unless I heard it differently, I would pronounce grog and blog to rhyme with log, fog, and dog. Nard rhymes with lard, 'tard, and hard.
Quote from: two_fishes;393479I don't know where the connotation comes from, but that is my sense of it, based on how I've seen it pejoratively used.
Unless I heard it differently, I would pronounce grog and blog to rhyme with log, fog, and dog. Nard rhymes with lard, 'tard, and hard.
It's pronounced "Gron-yard" roughly, and I are one. I have been one since I was a wargamer back in the seventies. OTOH, I like new games, enjoy experimenting within the traditional envelope, and haven't played a game published before 2004 for years - and that was one of my own games. So that proves precisely nothing, I suppose.
-clash
Well, now I'm more upset about the wonky pronunciation than anything else. More Frankish meddling in the English language, like it needed that. I need a language I can trust.
When used pejoratively it's pronounced Groin-Yard, and refers to the maximum distance a Serious Gamer allows the DMG to get from his cock. Any further than that and he is compelled to start a blog.
;)
Quote from: Cylonophile;393468So games have an expiration date?
We should throw out D&D, traveller, call of cthulhu, The morrow project, champions, rifts and all other games that predate 1990?
Just out of curiosity, should movies stop being watched after so many years? At what time do movies like casablanca, the maltese falcon and 2001 a space odyssey become unacceptable to watch?
I have a copy of one of my early games, ringworld, and it's still better than a lot of the stuff produced today.
I am not sure where in my post you are able to see me saying that. I wasn't saying old games are bad. I was saying old folks who only like old games and only bitch and moan about new games are bad.
I personally like traveller quite a lot.
I don't take it as anything negative, though I'm sure some people intend to use it that way.
Yes...but they're taking it back from the man.
I see the term as a badge of pride, especially when applied to the Gloranthan Grognards.
If it aint broke don't try and fix it.
Thanks for the "pronounciation in America"-input.
It's like nerd, geek, nigger, fag, and many other words. Whether it's an insult or not depends on if a) you're a member of the group and using it to refer to yourself and your compatriots or b) an outsider looking down your nose at them.
I always just took it to mean someone who was into old-school wargames. I think I first read about the term in PC Gamer when William Trotter was reviewing Avalon Hill titles, and self-identified as a grognard, so I never saw it as pejorative.
I always understood the term to mean a wargamer who brings the same wargame attitude to RPGs.
Whether I took it to be pejorative or not depended on the game we were discussing and how that play style would work with it. For instance grognards and D&D seems like a good fit. But maybe grognards and Call of Cthulu might not work...
But, yeah, as I have seen it used on the internet, it has implied negative connotations.
I fear wargamers aren´t what you think them to be.
Quote from: The Shaman;393449How do you use it, if you use it at all?
Shrug. I was called a grognard because I don't like all the new races, etc., in 4e. I don't use it because it really doesn't mean anything outside the context of how it's used.
Seanchai
Well, I consider myself to be a grognard as I got into games early on and didn't get pulled in via something like MTG or WoW, but I don't necessarily like a system because it's old or dislike a system because it's new.
In fact, I don't like some early systems. I hate random chargen as it lets the dice decide what you play. Say i want to play a scientist, and I get a character with strength 18 and intelligence 4. Wow, he's really going to be successful in the field I've chosen, right?
I like point buy systems and flaws/advantages, which a lot of early systems didn't have and a lot of traveller systems still don't have.
So no, I don't dis/like a system based on it's age. By that definition I'm not a grognard.
I've never seen it as a pejorative, though some take it that way. To me, it's equivalent to calling someone an "old-timer" in the context of gaming. I know it originally referred to Napoleonic minis gamers in a gaming context, but now it's come to mean those gamers (what ones are left) and RPG players who gamed as early as the 70s.
I've always pronounced it "grog-nard," as in watered-down rum and what the wolfman has.
I alse like how it's from where Ars Magica derives the term "grog," which is the lowest tier of characters in an Ars Magica group - they're the grunts, the bodyguards, the meat shields.
Being 30, and having been introduced to the hobby in the heyday of AD&D 2e, I do not consider myself a grognard, by any stretch of the imagination. I cut my teeth on D&D RC, AD&D 2e, MERP, GURPS 2e, CoC 5e, Star Wars (D6), and soon enough, oWoD. Hardly a grognard curriculum.
I do side with the grognards on a few things, though, strictly on account of my own enthusiasm for older games and retro-games. Right now I'm playing C&C (which is as close to "old school" as the GM and I could persuade our fellow gamers to play). On my "games I want to play" list are S&W, LL AEC, CoC and Traveller, as well as nWoD, The Day After Ragnarok and Eclipse Phase.
I don't see any merit in railing against newer games, or worse, newer gamers.
But I don't see the term "grognard" as pejorative. If I was an old-timer, I'd wear it as a badge of pride, much like how I imagine Napoleon's veterans probably did. :D
Quote from: Cylonophile;393637In fact, I don't like some early systems. I hate random chargen as it lets the dice decide what you play. Say i want to play a scientist, and I get a character with strength 18 and intelligence 4. Wow, he's really going to be successful in the field I've chosen, right?
But Cylo, that's the beauty of random chargen. You take the cards the game deals you, and you put on a show, the best you can. It's just a matter of tailoring your expectations to the game at hand -- I approach GURPS with certain expectations, and AD&D 1e with another mindset entirely.
Also bear in mind that randomness in character generation can be dialed up or down. In fact my favorite systems are those which combine player choice and randomness. Traveller has random chargen, but you get make a few calls. OD&D becomes that way if you roll 3d6 six times and "arrange to taste" (so you can have your Int 18 wizard, instead of being stuck with the Str 18, Int 4 man-child)
My favorite and most memorable characters were the randomly generated. That they were born of a few throws of the dice makes their achievements all the more memorable. A matter of personal opinion, I know, but there you go. :)
Quote from: Melan;393460It is certainly overused, and has become meaningless through dilution. I believe I will soon start calling myself a Landsknecht; it is still fresh, plus there are all those halberds... ;)
Dude, you are Hungarian. I am German, and you can't take away the proud history of my people selling murder to the highest bidder just for your convenience. :)
Considering my grandma on my father's side is Swabian, my grandpa came from a Saxon family, and I am registered as a voter on the German minority list, I will call myself whatever I want to. :cool:
Quote from: Melan;393887Considering my grandma on my father's side is Swabian, my grandpa came from a Saxon family, and I am registered as a voter on the German minority list, I will call myself whatever I want to. :cool:
Don't think you will be getting away with this, Herr Smarty-hosen.
Quote from: The Shaman;393449Is the word "grognard," as it applies to gamers, pejorative (http://mw2.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pejorative)?
Well, to answer my own question, it would appear that something less than one in four think so (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/poll-5988-a.html).
Quote from: The Shaman;393449Is the word "grognard," as it applies to gamers, pejorative (http://mw2.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pejorative)?
....
How do you use it, if you use it at all?
I use it to refer to those wargamers who thinkg RPGs are games not worth the paper they are printed on. At least that is how it was first used in Dragon way back when, nicely but you could tell those guys from TSR really didn't like the grognards dismissing RPGs. :)