Is "grognard" pejorative?

The Shaman · July 13, 2010, 01:22:51 AM

Is the word "grognard," as it applies to gamers, pejorative?

Grognard was originally a nickname of the veteran soldiers of Napoleon's old guard, "les vieux de la vieille." In the 1970s, the term was applied to wargamers:

Quote"The term 'grognard,' as applied to veteran wargamers, was first coined back in the early 1970's by John Young. He was, at that time, an employee for [the board] wargame publisher SPI, and the use of the term around the office (and among the local play testers) soon led to 'grognards' being mentioned in one of SPI's magazines (Strategy & Tactics). Several hundred thousand board wargamers picked up the term from that publication and it spread to computer wargamers, as the the board wargamers (the ones with PCs, of course) were the first people to snap up computer wargames when they appeared.

"Consider this a first hand account, not an urban legend. I actually heard John Young utter it the first time and was one of the people who razzed him about it for some time thereafter. I was also the one who actually put the term into circulation in Strategy & Tactics [during my tenure there as Editor]." - Jim Dunnigan

The term was later appropriated by roleplaying gamers, but among the latter the connotations are often quite negative.

QuoteIf you can get someone to take the position of "Fun! I don't play this game for fun, sonny-boy!", they are the grognard.

The grognard hates new games because they are not exactly like the old games.

QuoteBasically, from what I've seen, someone who self-identifies as a "grognard" is someone who has drawn a line in the sand, demarking where they stand; anyone on the other side of the line is against them, whether the anyone knows or cares to be.

Usually, that line is drawn before AD&D2.

QuoteTalking about french soldiers during the Napoleonic war is all well and good, but in the context of the gaming community grognard has been around for a long time, and has had consistent negative undertones for well over 15-20 years at least; since the beginning of the internet. Again, at least. I'm being conservative to be cautious.

For some segment of the gaming population, grognard is a rank insult, but it was not always thus.

How do you use it, if you use it at all?

Koltar · July 13, 2010, 01:29:49 AM

Quote from: The Shaman;393449How do you use it, if you use it at all?

I don't use it in in real life at all. Thats because I've only seen it used in online discussions in a mostly negative way.

The one time I heard it used in a real in-person way was at a game store where 4 or 5 of us were talking about RPGs. I mentioned that i used to receive the original JTAS magazine in the real-mail system at my house in a protective wrapper.
One of the other gamers said: "God, you really are a TRAVELLER grognard"
...but he said it with a grin on his face as if to say: "THank God I found another one!"
So I knew he meant as a sort of compliment.

Anyone on here ever been called ' Scooter Trash' and didn't know that it was actually a type of compliment?

- Ed C.

Cylonophile · July 13, 2010, 01:31:51 AM

I take it as a compliment. It means we've been in gaming a while and didn't come along after it had been around for a long time and we didn't drift in via MTG or WoW.

Benoist · July 13, 2010, 01:32:26 AM

I take it in a Napoleonian context. It means that you are a seasoned veteran, with a strong, vocal opinion of what you like and don't like. You've seen a lot, and you know it. There's a strong notion of loyalty to something implied in the term also. So it's not pejorative term to me, and it is meant as such, it actually kind of makes me smile, thinking of the Napoleonian origins of the term, which the Emperor meant as a jest, a joke about his most trusted followers.

thedungeondelver · July 13, 2010, 01:35:27 AM

I picked it up probably around the time I found Dragonsfoot. It sounds weird, saying it, so I don't use it that often in conversation, but I don't mind the term.

I could give less of a shit what some coconut head at enwurld thinks about the word, whether it's a pejorative term to them or not.

Cylonophile · July 13, 2010, 01:40:57 AM

Someone once described wargames as being "fat, bald and opinionated."

Well, I am fatter than I want to be, I'm not bald thank god and I am certainly opinionated.

I'd rather be opinionated than be some bleating little sheep who never has the spine to form or express an opinion any day.

So bring on the term "grognard". I'm not ashamed of it.

Melan · July 13, 2010, 01:46:46 AM

It is certainly overused, and has become meaningless through dilution. I believe I will soon start calling myself a Landsknecht; it is still fresh, plus there are all those halberds...

Saphim · July 13, 2010, 01:49:38 AM

For me the grognards are everything that is wrong about the hobby.
They are a bunch of old people, playing mostly games that were made before 1990 and their biggest contribution to the hobby is a whole lot of bitching and moaning about anything that was made after Vampire 1st ed (or even earlier in some extreme cases) for no real or some imagined reason.
So I guess that would be an insult.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that everybody who gamed since the beginning of the hobby is like that.

Cylonophile · July 13, 2010, 02:00:55 AM

Quote from: Saphim;393463For me the grognards are everything that is wrong about the hobby.
They are a bunch of old people, playing mostly games that were made before 1990 and their biggest contribution to the hobby is a whole lot of bitching and moaning about anything that was made after Vampire 1st ed (or even earlier in some extreme cases) for no real or some imagined reason.
So I guess that would be an insult.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that everybody who gamed since the beginning of the hobby is like that.

So games have an expiration date?

We should throw out D&D, traveller, call of cthulhu, The morrow project, champions, rifts and all other games that predate 1990?

Just out of curiosity, should movies stop being watched after so many years? At what time do movies like casablanca, the maltese falcon and 2001 a space odyssey become unacceptable to watch?

I have a copy of one of my early games, ringworld, and it's still better than a lot of the stuff produced today.

RPGPundit · July 13, 2010, 02:02:18 AM

Back in my day, "Grognards" were the guys who played wargames (the more complicated, the better) but didn't play RPGs.

Over time, the term somehow evolved to mean "guys who play old-school RPGs".

It was somewhat pejorative back when it had the old definition. Today some use it pejoratively, but those who would be defined as "grognards" mostly seem to wear it as a badge of pride.

RPGpundit

two_fishes · July 13, 2010, 02:15:32 AM

Not pejorative enough, obviously.

The term carries a connotation of not only liking old games, but also being derisive toward new games.

Peregrin · July 13, 2010, 02:18:29 AM

Quote from: Saphim;393463For me the grognards are everything that is wrong about the hobby.
They are a bunch of old people, playing mostly games that were made before 1990 and their biggest contribution to the hobby is a whole lot of bitching and moaning about anything that was made after Vampire 1st ed (or even earlier in some extreme cases) for no real or some imagined reason.
So I guess that would be an insult.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that everybody who gamed since the beginning of the hobby is like that.

"Old men...running the world. A new age! ... Old men are the future!"

The Shaman · July 13, 2010, 02:18:40 AM

Quote from: two_fishes;393471The term carries a connotation of not only liking old games, but also being derisive toward new games.

Based on what, exactly? Where does this connotation come from?

Settembrini · July 13, 2010, 02:26:13 AM

Any man of good taste should be derisive of most new games. So (because a dislike of new games is not special but standard for everyone of good mental health) a grognard is definitely someone who plays wargames and thinks of RPGs as the new thing.

What I ALWAYS wanted to know: how is grognard pronounced by americans? I have somehwere in the internet seen stuff like "grog-blog" which makes no phonetic sense, so I am very keen to understand how american RPGers pronounce it.

popbot · July 13, 2010, 02:34:37 AM

Quote from: Settembrini;393476Any man of good taste should be derisive of most new games. So (because a dislike of new games is not special but standard for everyone of good mental health) a grognard is definitely someone who plays wargames and thinks of RPGs as the new thing.

What I ALWAYS wanted to know: how is grognard pronounced by americans? I have somehwere in the internet seen stuff like "grog-blog" which makes no phonetic sense, so I am very keen to understand how american RPGers pronounce it.

I don't know how most people pronounce it here in America, but I pronounce it "groan-yard". I mostly hear it in connection with wargames, but its use is definitely growing in regards to RPGs. I find it funny because many people that use the term probably don't know how to properly pronounce it.