Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564148Maybe they shouldn't. And I say this as someone whp publishes games with skills like deception, command and persuade. Personally I am very torn over such mechanics because the fun of RP for me is playing it out live at the table. These kinds of skills can interfere with that if handled in certain ways by effectively bypassing or undermining the playrer's direct interaction with an NPC. It depends on how they are handled of course. But even as a GM, I find social mechanics the most problematic in play for the style game I prefer.

I agree in general, but the devil's advocate counterpoint might be:

Characters may have abilities greatly different from the player, so you are able to play a character that is not very similar to yourself.

Quote from: Bill;564197I would not say Pathfinder binds you to the rules,

It does when players spend more time scanning the book for obscure rulings or scanning forums for rules clarifications and demanding you use them.
I prefer to wing it if it's not clear and keep the game moving.
I don't experience this sort of thing in other games I run, often with the same people I ran Pathfinder for.

Quotebut it can get too complex for my taste. I am running a Pathfinder Dark Sun game at the moment, and enjoying it. At level 5 things are pretty smooth. Higher levels can get more complicated than my comfort zone.

Yeah at low level Pathfinder is pretty good.  It just starts getting really slow and bogged down at higher levels,

Quote from: Bill;564202I agree in general, but the devil's advocate counterpoint might be:

Characters may have abilities greatly different from the player, so you are able to play a character that is not very similar to yourself.

I agree this is a valid point. It is one I have thought about a great deal over the last year. Ultimately this is an issue of taste, but I concluded that for me it is more important to feel like I am there in character than to simulate a character. So ignoring the social skills gives me a more direct experience of the role I am playing. Rolling diplomacy pulls me out, and can even undo the specifics of the RP interaction.

When it comes to players who are not socially adept trying to play characters who are, again for me it is more a matter of feel than actual performance. So I give an A for effort, and I still do use the social rolls...I just do so very judiciously and in ways that don't work against the rp.

For me this may ne because I run mostly investigations. If you reduce all the clue finding in an investigation to skill rolls, to me that kind of defeats the point. These are adventures where the fun comes from challenging the player, not the character (at least for me). Skill rolls absolutely have their place. But I try to use them when the players are not specific enough. So if the player walks into a room and says I check under the bed, I will tell him he sees the bloody knife hidden there. If he walks in and just says he looks around, I will usually call for the Detect roll. If the player comes in and interogates I suspect, I prefer to lean on the specifics of what he and the NPC say over a roll. just my preference.

Quote from: Bill;564198I am a 2E person!

We exist!

Yay!

Quote from: Marleycat;564212Yay!

For those who like 2E, I'd like to point out the books are still available pretty cheap on amazon. I just restocked on my brown books (which I threw away in a move a few years ago) and it only cost me 20 cents each for many of them. Next up: green books.

Quote from: Bill;564193I would prefer to run 1E/2E, but my players demand Pathfinder and 4E.
So I never get to do 1E/2E.

I'm flabbergasted. I won't run jack or shit due to player demand. I will play any system someone is willing to run, but no way will I have the system that I run dictated by others.

My motto is : you love it so much, great then run it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564215For those who like 2E, I'd like to point out the books are still available pretty cheap on amazon. I just restocked on my brown books (which I threw away in a move a few years ago) and it only cost me 20 cents each for many of them. Next up: green books.

How do you pay on Amazon? Straight debit/credit card or do you have to do Paypal or something?

Quote from: Marleycat;564218How do you pay on Amazon? Straight debit/credit card or do you have to do Paypal or something?

Credit/debit.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564220Credit/debit.

I likey, I shall begin my search for CHEAP books nobody else wants.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;564216I'm flabbergasted. I won't run jack or shit due to player demand. I will play any system someone is willing to run, but no way will I have the system that I run dictated by others.

My motto is : you love it so much, great then run it.

I don't understand it either. When I want to run a game I talk about playing a game with people around me, and not just gamers. Neighbors, friends.

I usually have a few ideas and if one of them sticks, we roll with it. I'm the one coming up with the initial choices, though I might change my mind if some other idea for a game I didn't think of gets mentioned by this or that prospective player, grabs me by the gut and screams "PLAY ME NAO", you know.

The whole idea that (1) you can't find players to play the games you want, and (2) that the players get to dictate what they actually play to you, seems to be predicated on the notion that gamers can only play RPGs with other gamers, and you're somehow "screwed" if you don't find other RPG gamers to play with.

Not only is it not true, but it can actually produce the reverse effects one would expect, in that gaming with newbies and creating your own ongoing group can bring a lot more fun to your game table than you'd expect. I don't understand the incestuous, insular, gamers-with-gamers-only mentality so many seem willing to cling to.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;564216I'm flabbergasted. I won't run jack or shit due to player demand. I will play any system someone is willing to run, but no way will I have the system that I run dictated by others.

My motto is : you love it so much, great then run it.

I started a pathfinder group and ran it, then tried to convince them to try other games (I ran it for 2 years, so gave it a LONG play through).
Most of the players only wanted Pathfinder though, so in the end I folded Pathfinder and ran another game with a couple less players and haven't looked back since.

Quote from: Benoist;564222I don't understand it either. When I want to run a game I talk about playing a game with people around me, and not just gamers. Neighbors, friends.

I usually have a few ideas and if one of them sticks, we roll with it. I'm the one coming up with the initial choices, though I might change my mind if some other idea for a game I didn't think of gets mentioned by this or that prospective player, grabs me by the gut and screams "PLAY ME NAO", you know.

The whole idea that (1) you can't find players to play the games you want, and (2) that the players get to dictate what they actually play to you, seems to be predicated on the notion that gamers can only play RPGs with other gamers.

Not only is it not true, but it can actually produce the reverse effects one would expect, in that gaming with newbies and creating your own ongoing group can bring a lot more fun to your game table than you'd expect. I don't understand the incestuous, insular, gamers-with-gamers mentality so many seem willing to cling to.

This may vary from location to location but I live in the same city as Bill and my experience here has been getting non-gamers to play RPGs can be quite a challenge. That said I don't normally have trouble finding folks to play the game I want to run. Also it is an uphill effort (but certainly not impossible) to find people willing to play something that isn't pathfinder or 4E. Right now I have a good group and know lots of people who happen to share many of my preferences. A few years ago just getting those I gamed with to try savage worlds was pretty tough.

I acknowledge that everyone's experience and opportunities are different. It may be unnaturally tough for you to find people who'd like to give RPGs a try. If that is the case, I think it's got more to do with the approach one has introducing the idea of RPGs (or not introducing it at all) to people around you to then propose a  game casually and get a regular group going. Beyond that, I think there's just this assumed idea that "it's hard" so gamers don't even TRY and just go for gamer meetups and ads in LGS instead automatically, and I think they're wrong to do so.

I first came to Canada 10 years ago. Not only did I have an accent and knew next to no one around me, I found myself on an island as far as away from suburban civilization as you can get, with only about 1,500 people around me in a hundred miles radius. I got a group off the ground in a few months. And that's not like it was "hard" or I had to chase people down the island. No. That just came up in a bunch of conversations and in a few weeks time just made its way into the minds of a bunch of friends who then gave it a shot and played the game regularly.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;564216I'm flabbergasted. I won't run jack or shit due to player demand. I will play any system someone is willing to run, but no way will I have the system that I run dictated by others.

My motto is : you love it so much, great then run it.

Well, the players do tend to be happier if you give them what they want.

I have a few otherwise awesome players that get all bent out of shape over what game system we will use.

Quote from: Benoist;564229I acknowledge that everyone's experience and opportunities are different. It may be unnaturally tough for you to find people who'd like to give RPGs a try. If that is the case, I think it's got more to do with the approach one has introducing the idea of RPGs (or not introducing it at all) to people around you to then propose a  game casually and get a regular group going. Beyond that, I think there's just this assumed idea that "it's hard" so gamers don't even TRY and just go for gamer meetups and ads in LGS instead automatically, and I think they're wrong to do so.

I first came to Canada 10 years ago. Not only did I have an accent and knew next to no one around me, I found myself on an island as far as away from suburban civilization as you can get, with only about 1,500 people around me in a hundred miles radius. I got a group off the ground in a few months. And that's not like it was "hard" or I had to chase people down the island. No. That just came up in a bunch of conversations and in a few weeks time just made its way into the minds of a bunch of friends who then gave it a shot and played the game regularly.

I have certainly had luck introducing people the to the game over the years. Approach is everything. Recently got my cousin and her boyfriend interested in trying either vampire or 2E AD&D. So it can absoutely be done. But what social circles one travels in will matter here as well. And if you have a group of regular gamers available, there isn't much pressure to bring in new blood.

I don't know how things are in Canada with gaming, here there is still a bit of a stigma attached to it. That may be a factor. I am pretty open about it myself, but I can understand people not wanting to bring it up due to some of the reactions I have seen.