Is GM judgement (fiat) dead as a game tool?

Benoist · July 25, 2012, 02:27:47 AM

Quote from: Haffrung;563975Is GM judgement [strike](fiat)[/strike] dead as a game tool?

Fuck no it isn't. Not at my game table in any case.

The moment GM judgment stops being a tool at the game table is when it ceases to be a role playing game at all.

PS: calling GM judgment and adjudication "fiat" is already coopting the language of those who want to see the GM's balls cut off for good. It's jargon that is used as a bludgeon and you're better off rejecting it wholesale, IMO.

MGuy · July 25, 2012, 02:35:04 AM

GM fiat is as necesssary to build and run a game as the players are to create PCs to play in it. GM fiat is going to happen at some level in any game that features a GM that makes choices at all. However GM fiat is not something you can design around and thus should not be taken into account when design points are being discussed. The reason you can't design around DM fiat is that for every point made where you would say "The GM can do -X-" the argument can be made that "The GM could do -not X-". So while we can safely assume GMs will do "something" what that "something" is will vary from GM to GM.

Benoist · July 25, 2012, 02:37:42 AM

Quote from: MGuy;564049GM fiat is not something you can design around and thus should not be taken into account when design points are being discussed. The reason you can't design around DM fiat is that for every point made where you would say "The GM can do -X-" the argument can be made that "The GM could do -not X-". So while we can safely assume GMs will do "something" what that "something" is will vary from GM to GM.

For crying out loud, just go play some WoW and build mods and leave us role players the fuck alone, asshole.

StormBringer · July 25, 2012, 02:41:05 AM

If that thread existed anywhere except tBP, I would be sad and proceed to sell my books so I could find a different hobby.

Marleycat · July 25, 2012, 02:48:39 AM

Quote from: Benoist;564045Fuck no it isn't. Not at my game table in any case.

The moment GM judgment stops being a tool at the game table is when it ceases to be a role playing game at all.

PS: calling GM judgment and adjudication "fiat" is already coopting the language of those who want to see the GM's balls cut off for good. It's jargon that is used as a bludgeon and you're better off rejecting it wholesale, IMO.

You're right, it's not "fiat" in my mind or my players. It is just "Jo made a decision ". If it's wrong we discuss it after the game is all.

You want to make the final decisions to make the game fun? My chair is open as long as I get to play a PC but you have to get your own "Viking Hat". I'm still earning mine.

Benoist · July 25, 2012, 02:52:34 AM

Quote from: Marleycat;564053You're right, it's not "fiat" in my mind or my players. It is just "Jo made a decision ". If it's wrong we discuss it after the game is all.

That's right. It's not "fiat". It's real people playing the game and making judgment calls when appropriate.

Benoist · July 25, 2012, 03:02:41 AM

Quote from: Haffrung;563975One of the saddest things about this very sad thread on RPGNet is the offhand dismissal of GM judgement (or fiat) as a game tool, as expressed in this post. It seems these days, GM judgement is simply a non-starter. Social interaction has to be governed by mechanics, skills, and rolls - not roleplaying skill - or else the game is unfair or broken.

NO. It's an illusion created by sites like RPGnet. Don't be a moron. Don't drink the kool aid.

Quote from: Haffrung;563975I know this has been a contentious issue for years. But it seems as though the battle is won, and the mechanics-govern-everything party holds the field.

NO. It's a battle that's over alright, and as shitcakes like D&D 4e have clearly shown, we role players actually won. It's the guys on forums like RPGnet and the designers who drank the Forge kool aid that are not realizing it yet.

Planet Algol · July 25, 2012, 03:05:56 AM

"There's no rules for dogsled chases? What ever will we do!"

Marleycat · July 25, 2012, 03:15:21 AM

Quote from: Planet Algol;564062"There's no rules for dogsled chases? What ever will we do!"

We have a winner!

@Ben, it was funny so I had to be Marley. But what you're saying to Halfrung is spot on solid advice and "day troof" as Stormbringer likes to say.

Marleycat · July 25, 2012, 03:16:41 AM

Quote from: Planet Algol;564062"There's no rules for dogsled chases? What ever will we do!"

We have a winner!

@Ben, it was funny so I had to be Marley. But what you're saying to Halfrung is spot on solid advice and "da troof" as Stormbringer likes to say.

Marleycat · July 25, 2012, 03:23:38 AM

@Ben, why are you impersonating Ghost Whistler? He gonna be really pissed.

StormBringer · July 25, 2012, 03:24:46 AM

Quote from: Benoist;564045The moment GM judgment stops being a tool at the game table is when it ceases to be a role playing game at all.

Ha ha! GM judgement is a tool!

Benoist · July 25, 2012, 03:25:39 AM

Well it's better than the GM being the tool.

MGuy · July 25, 2012, 03:27:16 AM

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;564034Social mechanics should compliment, but never replace, good old-fashioned roleplay. The two can work hand-in-hand, but it takes a great group of players who all understand the expectations set upon them by the GM to make rational decisions their characters would make, given the milieu of the game world.

In truth, I really don't see the issue as a GM fiat so much as shift in what kind of roleplay is considered acceptable around the table. 4E D&D highlights my frustrations; game design has largely went the way of the lazy who wish to emulate Diablo on the tabletop. While there's certainly nothing wrong with this sort of play style, it has become a pervasive theme amongst "copycat" publishers and infectious amongst players' perceptions of role-playing games.

Out of curiousity, given what you say in your first paragraph what exactly don't you like about the way 4E approaches social encounters?
I actually find 4E's handling of out of combat sections of the game "too open to GM fiat" and that's why I dislike it so much. But you seem to be of the opinion that the light touch 4E takes on out of combat encounters (such as socializing) as a good thing. I am legitmately confused as to why you would not like how 4E approached it.

MGuy · July 25, 2012, 03:29:20 AM

Quote from: Planet Algol;564062"There's no rules for dogsled chases? What ever will we do!"

Use your best judgment.