When someone says "Hey, our roleplaying game should be fun!", does that actually help you to have fun?  Did you need reminding?

If you wanted to do something (say, get into an illicit affair with the Queen) and another player said "Hey, no, you can't do that.  It wouldn't be fun," is that a legitimate appeal to fun as a source of authority?  Do you buy that argument?  Do you back off of what you wanted to do, because it wouldn't be fun?

If you're upset about something in the game, and somebody says "Hey, cool down, we're just here to have fun," does that help you cool down?


Basically:  I think RPGs should be fun.  I play them in order to have fun.  I think that the actual fact of fun is very important.  But I have my doubts about whether the word "fun" does more good than harm.  What do you think?

Aren't there already at least two other threads abour this?

If fun doesn't work as a word, it's because folks insist on bickering over its meaning. It's what makes these types of discussions a pain in the neck to read. Most people have a perfectly functional understanding of what fun is, but in these theoretical discussions some folks treat "fun" as if they've never heard of or experienced it in their lives.

The solution is not to treat "fun" as if it covers the entirety of satisfactory gaming experiences. Words like, "entertaining", "fulfilling", "exciting", "challenging", "dramatic", "emotional". All of these can describe a positive experience and you won't have to invent a thing to get your point across.

Sometimes you have to write a complete sentence to describe a feeling. Right now all of these "fun" threads are trying to shrink a whole bunch of feelings down to one word, and that boat don't always float.

I agree basically, I play to have fun but I find the use of the word rather pointless, it's too vague to be helpful.

I tend to frame it in the fun/boring dichotomy. In roleplaying there is no good and bad, there is only fun and boring. I'll grant that you can't please all of your players all the time, but letting them get bored is a mortal sin if you're running a game.

'Fun' is a perfectly serviceable term. It means enjoyment.

However, if you are involved because you want to "shake people up", "push the boundaries of roleplaying!", "challenge the fictional paradigm", "experience group therapy" or "tackle powerful issues" or any bullshit that sounds kinda like that...

...just admit that your'e really not actually interested in doing anything fun, for you or anyone else. Your'e there for therapy, or to show how serious you are about 'roleplaying' or whatever, or to impress your friends or explore themes... or whatever the hell else.. But quit talking about fun if it isn't part of the process.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw'Fun' is a perfectly serviceable term. It means enjoyment.

However, if you are involved because you want to "shake people up", "push the boundaries of roleplaying!", "challenge the fictional paradigm", "experience group therapy" or "tackle powerful issues" or any bullshit that sounds kinda like that...

...just admit that your'e really not actually interested in doing anything fun, for you or anyone else. Your'e there for therapy, or to show how serious you are about 'roleplaying' or whatever, or to impress your friends or explore themes... or whatever the hell else.. But quit talking about fun if it isn't part of the process.

Damn right. Its the way they lie that makes me despise them so much.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal Maw'Fun' is a perfectly serviceable term. It means enjoyment.

However, if you are involved because you want to "shake people up", "push the boundaries of roleplaying!", "challenge the fictional paradigm", "experience group therapy" or "tackle powerful issues" or any bullshit that sounds kinda like that...

...just admit that your'e really not actually interested in doing anything fun, for you or anyone else. Your'e there for therapy, or to show how serious you are about 'roleplaying' or whatever, or to impress your friends or explore themes... or whatever the hell else.. But quit talking about fun if it isn't part of the process.

So then it's you claim that enjoyment can't be had by people looking to ""shake people up", "push the boundaries of roleplaying!", "challenge the fictional paradigm", "experience group therapy" or "tackle powerful issues" or any bullshit that sounds kinda like that..."?

Quote from: James McMurraySo then it's you claim that enjoyment can't be had by people looking to ""shake people up", "push the boundaries of roleplaying!", "challenge the fictional paradigm", "experience group therapy" or "tackle powerful issues" or any bullshit that sounds kinda like that..."?

Agreed.  Some people may find those fun.  This is the central error of Pundit's "swine" claims.  The people that want to push the boundries of roleplaying games, or tackle powerful issues or whatever want to do it because they want to have fun games, and they think those things might be fun.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw'Fun' is a perfectly serviceable term. It means enjoyment.

Yeah, but it's not very useful is it?

I mean, mostly because it's obvious.

If as GM advice a book says "make your game fun" what help does that give me?  

The point in the OP is not that we're not here to have fun, it's that using fun as a term doesn't really help much, which I agree with.  It's just too broad and vague to be useful.

If I said I was running a DnD game but it wasn't really fun, I've given you almost no meaningful information, certainly not enough for you to help me make it fun.  That's the point.

Quote from: James McMurraySo then it's you claim that enjoyment can't be had by people looking to ""shake people up", "push the boundaries of roleplaying!", "challenge the fictional paradigm", "experience group therapy" or "tackle powerful issues" or any bullshit that sounds kinda like that..."?

I'm saying that I don't believe that they actually enjoy it.

They may be compelled to do it, and they may (to use that other term) feel a lot of satisfaction in doing it, sure. But they certainly don't qualify as authorities on the matter.

It's also worth pointing out, that the main reason many people become theorists is that they admit they have lost the ability to have fun in the first place.  

I personally believe that is the real issue: Once you lose the ability to enjoy this wonderful hobby of ours, you no longer truly have a place in it. You are restricted to just a few options:  

1) getting out
2) trying to redefine what this hobby is (so you fit in again)
3) talking obsessively about the hobby as a theorist or commentator

edit: lots of posts while I was typing... This is in response to Maddman's post about Pundit

I think some of that is forced, although it wouldn't surprise me to find I was wrong. You can't make a name for yourself as a pundit these days without being an absolute asshole even when it isn't warranted. You need a derogatory word you can tack onto anyone and everyone that doesn't agree with you, and you gotta keep slinging hate even when (or perhaps for the purpose of) looking ludicrous.

RPGPundit, like most people that call themselves pundits and indeed many people on the internet, is a caricature. It would be kinda sad (and also a little funny) to find out that's all he really is.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm saying that I don't believe that they actually enjoy it.

Possible. I tend to think that people do the things they do at gaming tables because they enjoy it.

Quote from: James McMurrayPossible. I tend to think that people do the things they do at gaming tables because they enjoy it.

Most people, yes. I absolutely agree. But people do all that other stuff--are people whom I doubt.  

The guy who says "We played Lord of the Rings and I made a female high elf and we totally had a blast in the Forests of Gondor" sure.

The guy who says "we tried out Lord of the Rings, but I insisted we all play as female characters so we could examine the gender bias of Tolkien's creations and discuss the ramification thereof".

 THAT fucking guy I find myself doubting.

Hey, maybe it's just me.

I don't doubt one bit that he's doing it because he thinks it's fun. Forcing it on others is BS though.