I'm late to the party on this one, but it looks like Gothic Games took Chris Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy, changed a few names, and is publishing it as Demons & Dragons on DriveThruRPG.
Demons & Dragons
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/473128/Demons--Dragons?fbclid=IwY2xjawDwFPlleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHW1bx-Ug5oh12EsAhldXbv2sgdRWtv4ct68chZ4ruuyNt0iS_wgy4ybUHQ_aem_7T61VSdWGey7QZZOLojJQg
Basic Fantasy 4th edition
https://basicfantasy.org/downloads/Basic-Fantasy-RPG-Rules-r139.pdf
If so; while extremely lazy this basically doesn't effect Basic Fantasy at all, it's already open (which is more than can be said for some RPGs in the OSR talked about here) it's already free on their website and print at cost.
It's kind of like being given a free sample at Costco, and then turning around and selling it for 50 cents, scummy but otherwise harmless.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on July 01, 2024, 07:39:42 PMIf so; while extremely lazy this basically doesn't effect Basic Fantasy at all, it's already open (which is more than can be said for some RPGs in the OSR talked about here) it's already free on their website and print at cost.
It's kind of like being given a free sample at Costco, and then turning around and selling it for 50 cents, scummy but otherwise harmless.
I don't think that it is harmless if it sets precedent.
I'm chasing down the information, but Gothic Games may have done the same IP theft with their Wayfarer system and Cepheus Engine.
Does this have anything to do with the old 1980s "Dragons & Demons" (Drakar och Demoner) from Scandinavia? That was also based on BRP, but with permission.
Quote from: Trond on July 01, 2024, 08:18:08 PMDoes this have anything to do with the old 1980s "Dragons & Demons" (Drakar och Demoner) from Scandinavia? That was also based on BRP, but with permission.
Yeah was going to ask that too?
Did these people steal Drakkar och Demoner? Are the ducks in it?
Quote from: Socratic-DM on July 01, 2024, 07:39:42 PMIf so; while extremely lazy this basically doesn't effect Basic Fantasy at all, it's already open (which is more than can be said for some RPGs in the OSR talked about here) it's already free on their website and print at cost.
It's kind of like being given a free sample at Costco, and then turning around and selling it for 50 cents, scummy but otherwise harmless.
Not going to spend 20 dollars to be able to verify but...
BFRPG 4th edition is published under CC By SA, so... if this product includes that license and the proper credits then it's legal, not scummy but terribly lazy if the publisher really just changed a few names and the art.
Now, if it's BFRPG re-packaged but without the same license and the credits then it's not only scummy, it's illegal.
Quote from: Omega on July 01, 2024, 08:48:42 PMQuote from: Trond on July 01, 2024, 08:18:08 PMDoes this have anything to do with the old 1980s "Dragons & Demons" (Drakar och Demoner) from Scandinavia? That was also based on BRP, but with permission.
Yeah was going to ask that too?
Did these people steal Drakkar och Demoner? Are the ducks in it?
No, this is the Basic Fantasy OSR game by Chris Gonnerman and not the Basic Fantasy originally associated with Chaosium.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 01, 2024, 07:59:37 PMI'm chasing down the information, but Gothic Games may have done the same IP theft with ... Cepheus Engine.
What chasing down? Open it up side by side with Cepheus to see if its identical or new content.
Cepheus is built off the SRD for Mongoose Traveller 1e, with some house rules in the direction of Classic. As it had to be, as 1e Mongoose was the only edition of Traveller to ever have a functional OGL. Later versions of Cepheus (they are legion) make some more transformative changes, but are still governed by the OGL, and generally still fall into the range of house rules + campaign or setting decisions for a Traveller campaign. Copying a previous iteration of Cepheus, making your own desired changes, and slapping a new word into the Cepheus [Noun] title format is how even the legitimate and innovative versions of Cepheus came to be.
If it is a straight copy and paste job, scummy is a good word. I'd want to avoid both the specific product and the publisher in general. But - can't be IP theft if the work you copied contains no IP to thieve. And Cepheus is
turtles OGL all the way down.
Gonnerman did a video about this himself. The latest iteration of Demons & dragons is technically legal. All the art was replaced with crappy art that Gothic has access to. Its still a shady thing to do, selling content that is available free from Basic Fantasy that has better art. Naming it Demons & Dragons was funny too since they replicated the contents of Basic Fantasy core which has NO demons whatsoever. Gothic is just trying to score a fast buck but Drive Thru will be the one to hear all the backlash when angry customers find out that this was ripped off content that they could have gotten a better copy of for nothing in pdf. Chris was more baffled than angry about what Gothic hopes to get out of all this.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 02, 2024, 07:55:53 AMGonnerman did a video about this himself. The latest iteration of Demons & dragons is technically legal. All the art was replaced with crappy art that Gothic has access to. Its still a shady thing to do, selling content that is available free from Basic Fantasy that has better art. Naming it Demons & Dragons was funny too since they replicated the contents of Basic Fantasy core which has NO demons whatsoever. Gothic is just trying to score a fast buck but Drive Thru will be the one to hear all the backlash when angry customers find out that this was ripped off content that they could have gotten a better copy of for nothing in pdf. Chris was more baffled than angry about what Gothic hopes to get out of all this.
I am watching the gonnerman video right now. Its weird but it seems every so often scammers who are lazy and trying to make money off other peoples work seems to appear, people bring attention to it and then the scammers disappear.
Best option is to bring attention to it and make sure people don't get scammed and buy Basic Fantasy instead of a scam version where the author did nothing.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 01, 2024, 07:06:38 PMDemons & Dragons
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/473128/Demons--Dragons?fbclid=IwY2xjawDwFPlleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHW1bx-Ug5oh12EsAhldXbv2sgdRWtv4ct68chZ4ruuyNt0iS_wgy4ybUHQ_aem_7T61VSdWGey7QZZOLojJQg
This link no longer works. Did DriveThru pull the product?
I was wondering why Gonnerman did a video, he doesnt do that too often.
BF user group is pretty good, and they did a really quick turnover to CC by SA license, and track down all the artists and things. I am amazed at the amount of proof reading that goes on in a product like that.
I helped on one module so far, I like doing that.
its really crummy to steal other peoples work like this.
Quote from: GhostNinja on July 02, 2024, 09:31:47 AMI am watching the gonnerman video right now. Its weird but it seems every so often scammers who are lazy and trying to make money off other peoples work seems to appear, people bring attention to it and then the scammers disappear.
Best option is to bring attention to it and make sure people don't get scammed and buy Basic Fantasy instead of a scam version where the author did nothing.
I think Drive Thru is kind of scummy for continuing to offer the game after this was made public. Because they get a cut of Gothic sales and Basic Fantasy charges nothing for their pdf.
I found a video by Todd Lyons that goes over the issue a bit and it seems that Gothic Church took a bunch of Basic Fantasy modules as well, rebranded them and changed the copyright. Changing the copyright notice goes against the creative commons with attribute license.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 02, 2024, 10:43:32 AMI think Drive Thru is kind of scummy for continuing to offer the game after this was made public. Because they get a cut of Gothic sales and Basic Fantasy charges nothing for their pdf.
I agree. I think that the moment they found out they should have taken it down. Instead they are ignoring it so they can make a profit. Not a good look.
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on July 02, 2024, 10:39:51 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on July 01, 2024, 07:06:38 PMDemons & Dragons
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/473128/Demons--Dragons?fbclid=IwY2xjawDwFPlleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHW1bx-Ug5oh12EsAhldXbv2sgdRWtv4ct68chZ4ruuyNt0iS_wgy4ybUHQ_aem_7T61VSdWGey7QZZOLojJQg
This link no longer works. Did DriveThru pull the product?
I'm not sure. I've been busy with other stuff. I'll be checking it out as soon as I get time.
I'm sure the publisher is going to get gone (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/es/product/461011/wayfarer)
Theft? No.
Shit practice? Yes
This is no difference than buying "Guchi" or "Luis Vitton" knock offs from China.
you get what you pay for.
Quote from: GhostNinja on July 02, 2024, 01:17:07 PMQuote from: Exploderwizard on July 02, 2024, 10:43:32 AMI think Drive Thru is kind of scummy for continuing to offer the game after this was made public. Because they get a cut of Gothic sales and Basic Fantasy charges nothing for their pdf.
I agree. I think that the moment they found out they should have taken it down. Instead they are ignoring it so they can make a profit. Not a good look.
What gothic is doing is Legal and DTRPG is a business that makes money.
If the product was ILLEGAL then by all means lambast DTRPG to pull it down, which they have done in the past.
Watching the video by the creator of Basic Fantasy it seems that Gothic Church did this once before with a different named game but was called out for totally screwing the attributions. This time they mostly got it right.
Most OGL games screw up the attributions. Even some from biggish companies. Mongoose, for instance, borrowed a lot of stuff from Fading Suns d20 (the social feats, the noble class) and used them in Conan. Which would be fine, but they didn't update the OGL
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 02, 2024, 07:55:10 PMWhat gothic is doing is Legal and DTRPG is a business that makes money.
If the product was ILLEGAL then by all means lambast DTRPG to pull it down, which they have done in the past.
It appears by a link provided earlier that it has been pulled. So apparently Dtrpg didnt agree. We shall see what happens.
Quote from: JeremyR on July 02, 2024, 11:21:13 PMMost OGL games screw up the attributions. Even some from biggish companies. Mongoose, for instance, borrowed a lot of stuff from Fading Suns d20 (the social feats, the noble class) and used them in Conan. Which would be fine, but they didn't update the OGL
The game in question appears to be a copy/paste of the entire ruleset (and modules) with art and copyright changes. Not just borrowed some stuff.
This quick buck antics reminds me of the James Shipman T&T incidents.
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 03, 2024, 10:03:49 AMQuote from: JeremyR on July 02, 2024, 11:21:13 PMMost OGL games screw up the attributions. Even some from biggish companies. Mongoose, for instance, borrowed a lot of stuff from Fading Suns d20 (the social feats, the noble class) and used them in Conan. Which would be fine, but they didn't update the OGL
The game in question appears to be a copy/paste of the entire ruleset (and modules) with art and copyright changes. Not just borrowed some stuff.
Thats true, but the 4th ed Basic Fantasy is CC by SA (not OGL), so he can do that IF he gives proper attribution on his title page.
Basic Fantasy is not in the business to make money, the books are sold on amazon at cost, and the pdfs are free.
For all the pronoun nonsense, the community is large and active,and produces good products, and Gonnerman leads it pretty well, its well organized to keep books updated and flowing.
Quote from: orbitalair on July 03, 2024, 10:32:09 AMThats true, but the 4th ed Basic Fantasy is CC by SA (not OGL), so he can do that IF he gives proper attribution on his title page.
Basic Fantasy is not in the business to make money, the books are sold on amazon at cost, and the pdfs are free.
Yes, it is not strictly illegal, just pretty scummy. My point is the comparison between just borrowed this and that and basically taking the whole thing and claiming it as your own which is sort of what they did with the copyright switch and failure at proper attribution.
Quote from: brettmb on July 03, 2024, 10:17:27 AMThis quick buck antics reminds me of the James Shipman T&T incidents.
That was a total mess too.
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on July 02, 2024, 10:39:51 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on July 01, 2024, 07:06:38 PMDemons & Dragons
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/473128/Demons--Dragons?fbclid=IwY2xjawDwFPlleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHW1bx-Ug5oh12EsAhldXbv2sgdRWtv4ct68chZ4ruuyNt0iS_wgy4ybUHQ_aem_7T61VSdWGey7QZZOLojJQg
This link no longer works. Did DriveThru pull the product?
Yes, they did.
See, here's the thing. The theft and publication of another's work may be legal under the CC license or even the OGL (if not properly attributed) but that does not make it right. As many have said here, it is scummy and sleazy business practice but it is legal. I would hope that the hobby would police its own in these cases, but considering the practice of Woke Cancel Culture over the past few years, it may be tricky. How do you prove that the IP was used without consent of the author without having it devolve into a matter of "he said, she said"? Should the hobby be acting on cases like this or is the realm of business owners and courts of law?
Right now, the offending products plagiarized have been removed from DriveThruRPG. However, this has caused a problem with Amazon.com, where Basic Fantasy is sold at cost in print form. Chris Gonnerman is still trying to get that problem solved.
For myself, I don't want sleazy business practices like Gothic Games have done to be representative of my hobby and it's creators.