Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMJust stay away from anything by White Wolf. The way they handle werewolves is gross because it takes what would be considered the villains in any sane universe and treats them as the heroes. Ecofascism, racism, ableism, domestic violence, incest, date rape, bestiality, cannibalism, mass murder, human sacrifice, red weddings, etc. One of the lead writers was nicknamed "Satyr" even. The only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.

Nothing new, the left identifies with evil.

That being said having some weres who do not eat people, do not change unwilling victims, makes for a good conflict driving trope... Much like a vampire that uses the blood banks instead of hunting.

Quote from: jhkim on January 05, 2025, 10:57:58 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 05, 2025, 04:33:31 AMSo they used the French name to create a distinction, and the hexenwolves are just skinwalkers.

Also DF?

DF = Dresden Files

I'm not particularly a big fan, but it's a media franchise that differs from the standard that BoxCrayonTales was complaining about.

Thanks, I've heard good things about the novels.

I'm researching Chill again and it turns out that different editions have very different takes on werewolves.

In 1st edition, there's three kinds of werewolves. The "lycanthrope" follows the Talbot rules to a tee. The "common werewolf" is a demon that pretends to be human and can transform at will. The "loup du mal" is a beefed-up werewolf that knows various superpowers. Being bitten by any type turns the victim into a lycanthrope type.

In 2nd edition, there's two kinds. The common werewolf reappears here, but it can no longer infect others. The "loup garou" must wear a wolfskin to transform, which it keeps in its lair.

In the supplement Lycanthropes, these types are forgotten and a completely different set of six is presented, as I mentioned earlier. The different kinds are Howling-style werewolves (infectious, voluntary transformation, become evil upon infection), hereditary werewolves who transform involuntarily under the full moon and become violently hungry when they do (they also have a beefier "werewolf lord" variant), magicians that use magic to transform, astral werewolves that project their incorporeal astral forms (and in some cases can materialize too), real world clinical lycanthropy, and wolfen from the movie Wolfen.

So there's like 10 different kinds in Chill.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 07, 2025, 12:38:53 PMI'm researching Chill again and it turns out that different editions have very different takes on werewolves.

In 1st edition, there's three kinds of werewolves. The "lycanthrope" follows the Talbot rules to a tee. The "common werewolf" is a demon that pretends to be human and can transform at will. The "loup du mal" is a beefed-up werewolf that knows various superpowers. Being bitten by any type turns the victim into a lycanthrope type.

In 2nd edition, there's two kinds. The common werewolf reappears here, but it can no longer infect others. The "loup garou" must wear a wolfskin to transform, which it keeps in its lair.

In the supplement Lycanthropes, these types are forgotten and a completely different set of six is presented, as I mentioned earlier. The different kinds are Howling-style werewolves (infectious, voluntary transformation, become evil upon infection), hereditary werewolves who transform involuntarily under the full moon and become violently hungry when they do (they also have a beefier "werewolf lord" variant), magicians that use magic to transform, astral werewolves that project their incorporeal astral forms (and in some cases can materialize too), real world clinical lycanthropy, and wolfen from the movie Wolfen.

So there's like 10 different kinds in Chill.

IMHO keeping the wolf skin wearing type as a skinwalker wizard/witch is a better option since it gives it the power to wear other skins (even human) thus creating another monster for the PCs to fight.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2025, 02:51:14 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 07, 2025, 12:38:53 PMI'm researching Chill again and it turns out that different editions have very different takes on werewolves.

In 1st edition, there's three kinds of werewolves. The "lycanthrope" follows the Talbot rules to a tee. The "common werewolf" is a demon that pretends to be human and can transform at will. The "loup du mal" is a beefed-up werewolf that knows various superpowers. Being bitten by any type turns the victim into a lycanthrope type.

In 2nd edition, there's two kinds. The common werewolf reappears here, but it can no longer infect others. The "loup garou" must wear a wolfskin to transform, which it keeps in its lair.

In the supplement Lycanthropes, these types are forgotten and a completely different set of six is presented, as I mentioned earlier. The different kinds are Howling-style werewolves (infectious, voluntary transformation, become evil upon infection), hereditary werewolves who transform involuntarily under the full moon and become violently hungry when they do (they also have a beefier "werewolf lord" variant), magicians that use magic to transform, astral werewolves that project their incorporeal astral forms (and in some cases can materialize too), real world clinical lycanthropy, and wolfen from the movie Wolfen.

So there's like 10 different kinds in Chill.

IMHO keeping the wolf skin wearing type as a skinwalker wizard/witch is a better option since it gives it the power to wear other skins (even human) thus creating another monster for the PCs to fight.

The weird thing about Chill 2 is that it depicts loup garou as hereditary.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMThe only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.

Are you sure? I recall one of the Metis NPCs doing something darn close. But its been decades and who cares what WW edgelorded this time because they edgelorded everything they could. Theres alot of weird also in their short lived in-house magazine.

Quote from: Omega on January 07, 2025, 09:12:15 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMThe only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.

Are you sure? I recall one of the Metis NPCs doing something darn close. But its been decades and who cares what WW edgelorded this time because they edgelorded everything they could. Theres alot of weird also in their short lived in-house magazine.

By all rights it should be dead, but Paradox/Renegade revived it. They're still churning out shovelware for it, and after alienating all the old fans by decapitating the lore. ICv2 claims it's still a top 5 bestseller in 2023-4. (ICv2 also says the pandemic inflated the market by over ten times its previous value and now it's currently in freefall.)

It's a terrible game that nobody actually plays as written, but it's still the only option for urban fantasy and monster hunting. Their hunter game has a huge chip and its shoulder and takes potshots at every previous monster hunting game, including the previous White Wolf games like Orpheus and Vigil, by childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.

Jesus H Christ, why has nobody made better and more popular games by now? Monster of the Week has horrible class bloat, but it doesn't insult players for wanting to play as part of organized hunter guilds and indeed provides several options in that vein (probably more than necessary, and too generic for my tastes after Vigil's banquet of organizations, but they still care).

There have to be better premises for werewolf games than "psychotic ecofascists try to heroically (/s) exterminate humanity by blowing up gas stations, office buildings and science labs, massacring weddings, and generally being psychotic mass murderers." Who wrote this dumb shit? The author of FATAL?

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.

I had a player infected once. I let it fester for a few weeks then I ran a short solo session for her.
It was a kind of waking dream were things were not as they seemed.
When she came to her senses, the body of her victim lay before her. Then she realised what was happening.

A creature, one that steps between the worlds, gave her advice. Embrace your fate & your animal instincts, or resist it & seek a cure.
As the DM i told her this meant rejoin the group knowing you are a wererat, or hand over your char sheet & have your character run off into the woods.
As a paladin she chose to spare her friends from the risk & handed over her sheet.

Before I approached this i made sure I was absolutely clear with myself that either option was fine. So i had no bias. I felt it was important in this situation not to lead her choice in any way.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 09:46:11 AMby childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.

That is a gross and misleading simplification of what their game says about orgs (large hunter organizations). What it does say is that as orgs grow, they increasingly develop their own agendas apart from just stopping monsters, and that those dedicated to just stopping monsters increasingly get marginalized and lose influence to those that support the org working for its own sake.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 08, 2025, 10:32:11 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 09:46:11 AMby childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.

That is a gross and misleading simplification of what their game says about orgs (large hunter organizations). What it does say is that as orgs grow, they increasingly develop their own agendas apart from just stopping monsters, and that those dedicated to just stopping monsters increasingly get marginalized and lose influence to those that support the org working for its own sake.

So basically EVERY bureaucracy ever?

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 08, 2025, 10:32:11 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 09:46:11 AMby childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.

That is a gross and misleading simplification of what their game says about orgs (large hunter organizations). What it does say is that as orgs grow, they increasingly develop their own agendas apart from just stopping monsters, and that those dedicated to just stopping monsters increasingly get marginalized and lose influence to those that support the org working for its own sake.

You clearly haven't played the prior editions or chatted with their fans. Everyone hates 5e. It's the one thing fans of World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness can agree on, when they otherwise hate each other. It's insulting garbage that craps on all prior editions with a huge chip on its shoulder.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 11:38:25 AMSo basically EVERY bureaucracy ever?

The game was written by psychotic hypocritical leftists. Don't expect them to have any consistency or self-awareness. They claim to hate bureaucracy while demanding the government increase its bureaucracy. As far as I'm concerned, they do nothing but spew shit.

Most monster games before Reckoning had premises where the PCs worked for an organization that provided them with resources. A private think tank like the Hoffmann Institute in Dark*Matter, a government department like Bureau 13 in Bureau 13, an ancient chivalric order like SAVE in Chill, literal angels like the Messengers in the prior edition of Hunter: The Reckoning, the various cells, compacts and conspiracies in Hunter: The Vigil, etc. It was the easiest way to explain how they're able to maintain themselves. Vigil did have a few villainous conspiracies, some you could even work for like Cheiron Group, but the writers rightfully understood that bureaucracy was boring.

Yeah, working for organizations can reduce PC autonomy. It more than makes up for that by providing resources: a paycheck, housing, weapons, legal protections, strings in politics, excuses to tell your family, leads in cases... Hunting monsters by yourself doesn't pay the bills, doesn't avoid suspicion, and doesn't provide a lot of leads. Hunter: The Vigil also lets you play as self-employed freelancers, with the expected high death rate that comes with it. The titular "Vigil" isn't just pretentious ramblings, it actually refers to creating new characters to replace dead ones and continue their "vigil" against the monsters.

Reckoning 5e arbitrarily demonizes organization as a concept, including its own prior editions. One of the supplements exists for no reason other than to take cheap potshots at all hunter organizations previously introduced in the IP like Orpheus Group and the Society of Leopold (for reference, in the official adventure path the PCs employed by Orpheus Group avert a global apocalypse). It does so for no apparent reason that I can discern besides the new team of writers having chips on their shoulders and wanting to actively piss off fans. That seems to be a common pattern with every long-running franchise that was bought by corpos and revived in recent years.

---

But we're getting off topic here. This topic is supposed to be about werewolves. There isn't really any decent games for playing those. I did read Bite Marks on drivethrurpg, but I found it lackluster. While I like having flexibility in terms of lore after becoming frustrated with games typically having tiresome mono-settings, it doesn't present any settings at all outside of a couple short scenarios. No foundations for politics, no theology, no social hierarchy... So disappointing.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 11:38:25 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 08, 2025, 10:32:11 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 09:46:11 AMby childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.

That is a gross and misleading simplification of what their game says about orgs (large hunter organizations). What it does say is that as orgs grow, they increasingly develop their own agendas apart from just stopping monsters, and that those dedicated to just stopping monsters increasingly get marginalized and lose influence to those that support the org working for its own sake.

So basically EVERY bureaucracy ever?

Exactly. If anything, it was a nod to human nature.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 01:40:54 PMYou clearly haven't played the prior editions or chatted with their fans. Everyone hates 5e. It's the one thing fans of World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness can agree on, when they otherwise hate each other. It's insulting garbage that craps on all prior editions with a huge chip on its shoulder.

You clearly have guessed wrong. I played the hell out of WoD from about 1994-2001, and so did more than half of the plers I currently game with. Around central Florida, there are a few games of 5e Vampire and one of 5e Werewolf that I am aware of, so your absolute is wrong too.

Anyway, Paradox/Renegade's game is ecofascist antihuman racist sexist genocidal garbage written by hypocritical lefto-fascist anarcho-primitivist lunatics. The writers are crypto-nazis who think people like me, and humanity in general, shouldn't be alive because we can't survive in their darwinist caveman hellscape. I refuse to give money to those monsters or play games that insult me for existing.

I don't understand why those nutjobs have zero competition. It's not like urban fantasy is hard to write.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 09:25:25 AMAnyway, Paradox/Renegade's game is ecofascist antihuman racist sexist genocidal garbage written by hypocritical lefto-fascist anarcho-primitivist lunatics. The writers are crypto-nazis who think people like me, and humanity in general, shouldn't be alive because we can't survive in their darwinist caveman hellscape. I refuse to give money to those monsters or play games that insult me for existing.

I don't understand why those nutjobs have zero competition. It's not like urban fantasy is hard to write.

You again appear to love to demonize things you don't like. It's OK to not like something without going full nut-job. You should try it.