Classic Horror at its best, in my opinion.
Don't know about the last edition but it should be taken as a disease since it spreads through bite. Magical rabies on steroids.
Of course it is possible for a god or powerful enough entity to curse someone with lycanthropy so they will go hurt people once in a while in animal form. Then there is the possibilty of it being a blessing from such beings. An evil nature god can create lycans as a reward for service, because which eco-terrorist wouldn't want to become a predator animal to maul city loving humans?
But there is also the "good" lycans from werebears, whose alignment is Good. Bharrai is a NG ursine god (whose followers can turn into bears) and Selune is the patron goddess of non-evil lycans in the FR.
Soooo, its literally whatever you want. Perhaps another a relevant question is "can a curse become a disease if it spreads?`
Lycanthropy = Werewolves
Terianthropy = Were(insert animal here)
In D&D and most if not all RPGs they call it the first but in reality is the second.
IMHO, in most fiction and RPGs (AFAIK) it's treated as a magical disease, that might have started as a curse on patient zero.
I mean for it to be strictly a curse (IMHO) it would necessitate to not be transmissible by bite but to have the cursed be cursed, either by birth (the seventh son of the seventh son), by offending the entity cursing the were, or by accident (picking/wearing/etc the object that curses the were).
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 12:17:03 PMI mean for it to be strictly a curse (IMHO) it would necessitate to not be transmissible by bite but to have the cursed be cursed, either by birth (the seventh son of the seventh son), by offending the entity cursing the were, or by accident (picking/wearing/etc the object that curses the were).
Is there some reason that a curse cannot be transmissible? Vampirism is often called a curse, and it can be transmitted (sorta).
I'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
I would like to see an urban fantasy ttrpg about werewolves who can transmit it with a bite or magic
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 28, 2024, 12:45:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 12:17:03 PMI mean for it to be strictly a curse (IMHO) it would necessitate to not be transmissible by bite but to have the cursed be cursed, either by birth (the seventh son of the seventh son), by offending the entity cursing the were, or by accident (picking/wearing/etc the object that curses the were).
Is there some reason that a curse cannot be transmissible? Vampirism is often called a curse, and it can be transmitted (sorta).
I've already stated that's:
1.- IMHO
2.- The reasons and basis to differentiate disease from curse IMHO.
Is there anything else you need explained?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 28, 2024, 12:54:40 PMI would like to see an urban fantasy ttrpg about werewolves who can transmit it with a bite or magic
I've got one in the backburner, WBFMAG based, inspired by the works of 2-3 of my favourite Urban Fantasy authors.
I've thought about this a bit. I think I like lycanthropy as curse more than the psudeoscience of it being a disease. Which doesn't preclude lycanthropy being transmissable via bite. It's just part of the curse that it can spread to the innocent.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 06:38:46 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 28, 2024, 12:45:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 12:17:03 PMI mean for it to be strictly a curse (IMHO) it would necessitate to not be transmissible by bite but to have the cursed be cursed, either by birth (the seventh son of the seventh son), by offending the entity cursing the were, or by accident (picking/wearing/etc the object that curses the were).
Is there some reason that a curse cannot be transmissible? Vampirism is often called a curse, and it can be transmitted (sorta).
I've already stated that's:
1.- IMHO
2.- The reasons and basis to differentiate disease from curse IMHO.
Is there anything else you need explained?
No, if you don't want to discuss it further, then I guess not.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 28, 2024, 09:42:21 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 06:38:46 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 28, 2024, 12:45:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 12:17:03 PMI mean for it to be strictly a curse (IMHO) it would necessitate to not be transmissible by bite but to have the cursed be cursed, either by birth (the seventh son of the seventh son), by offending the entity cursing the were, or by accident (picking/wearing/etc the object that curses the were).
Is there some reason that a curse cannot be transmissible? Vampirism is often called a curse, and it can be transmitted (sorta).
I've already stated that's:
1.- IMHO
2.- The reasons and basis to differentiate disease from curse IMHO.
Is there anything else you need explained?
No, if you don't want to discuss it further, then I guess not.
I'm fine discussing it, but seriously I already gave my reasons.
As to why would people call it a curse (even if it wasn't), well people have called a curse lots of stuff we now know it isn't.
What I think is more interesting is:
Do Terianthropes reproduce biologically? Meaning, if you get a male and female werewolves are they able to have offspring? and is the child also a were from birth?
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
About three years ago I was running an Advanced Labyrinth Lord game and one of my players was bitten by a wererat in a scuffle and I waited to see if she was going to get it taken care of, yet the player spaced it. So I wrote an index card with some information and slipped it to the player who did a great job of running with it until she was eventually found out and Remove Curse was cast on her (one of the other players was deathly afraid of rats and set up the 'intervention'). It was an interesting part of the campaign.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 10:10:50 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 28, 2024, 09:42:21 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 06:38:46 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 28, 2024, 12:45:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 12:17:03 PMI mean for it to be strictly a curse (IMHO) it would necessitate to not be transmissible by bite but to have the cursed be cursed, either by birth (the seventh son of the seventh son), by offending the entity cursing the were, or by accident (picking/wearing/etc the object that curses the were).
Is there some reason that a curse cannot be transmissible? Vampirism is often called a curse, and it can be transmitted (sorta).
I've already stated that's:
1.- IMHO
2.- The reasons and basis to differentiate disease from curse IMHO.
Is there anything else you need explained?
No, if you don't want to discuss it further, then I guess not.
I'm fine discussing it, but seriously I already gave my reasons.
As to why would people call it a curse (even if it wasn't), well people have called a curse lots of stuff we now know it isn't.
What I think is more interesting is:
Do Terianthropes reproduce biologically? Meaning, if you get a male and female werewolves are they able to have offspring? and is the child also a were from birth?
You also have to consider that, if it is a disease, is it viral? Bacterial? Genetic (i.e., latent genetic that is activated by the bite)? Something else? Can it be medically treated/cured? Can (stupid/crazy) scientists experiment on it to create super-strains?
My problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?
If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.
So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 12:02:07 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 10:10:50 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 28, 2024, 09:42:21 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 06:38:46 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 28, 2024, 12:45:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 28, 2024, 12:17:03 PMI mean for it to be strictly a curse (IMHO) it would necessitate to not be transmissible by bite but to have the cursed be cursed, either by birth (the seventh son of the seventh son), by offending the entity cursing the were, or by accident (picking/wearing/etc the object that curses the were).
Is there some reason that a curse cannot be transmissible? Vampirism is often called a curse, and it can be transmitted (sorta).
I've already stated that's:
1.- IMHO
2.- The reasons and basis to differentiate disease from curse IMHO.
Is there anything else you need explained?
No, if you don't want to discuss it further, then I guess not.
I'm fine discussing it, but seriously I already gave my reasons.
As to why would people call it a curse (even if it wasn't), well people have called a curse lots of stuff we now know it isn't.
What I think is more interesting is:
Do Terianthropes reproduce biologically? Meaning, if you get a male and female werewolves are they able to have offspring? and is the child also a were from birth?
You also have to consider that, if it is a disease, is it viral? Bacterial? Genetic (i.e., latent genetic that is activated by the bite)? Something else? Can it be medically treated/cured? Can (stupid/crazy) scientists experiment on it to create super-strains?
In my urban fantasy setting it's a magically transmitted disease and no cure is known. Which, since a were can very easily become feral (either temporally or permanently) it would feel like a curse, more so if they can't breed.
But in D&D it's called a curse and can be "cured".
Again, in my setting vampires are made by repeated feedings AND drinking the blood of the vampire until the sheep dies from the feeding. It's a curse that can be passed on by the act of drinking the vampire's blood which would imply not only consent but willingness to become an undead. Not all sheep rise as undead even if they have been sheep for a long time, but for every year as one the % of rising as undead increases up until 95% chances of becoming undead.
Haven't ever tried to make either a real disease with no magical component. Meaning something scientists could tamper with. Which doesn't mean a powerful enough wizard couldn't try to make a superstrain. Guess it all depends as to how the were's origin came to be...
Say it was a deity/demon that created the first... Are there wizards powerful enough to tamper with that? Has the magic remained the same over millenia?
Quote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?
If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.
So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.
To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:24:06 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?
If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.
So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.
To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.
In TORG, the Orrosh werewolfs actually die as humans and then rise from the dead as werewolfs. This is similar to what you're talking about, but in TORG, it's most certainly more of a curse than a disease.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 12:43:27 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:24:06 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?
If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.
So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.
To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.
In TORG, the Orrosh werewolfs actually die as humans and then rise from the dead as werewolfs. This is similar to what you're talking about, but in TORG, it's most certainly more of a curse than a disease.
Except if you die then you die, you don't rise from the dead. How does TORG avoid the world being overrun by werewolves if every human they kill becomes one?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:59:35 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 12:43:27 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:24:06 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?
If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.
So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.
To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.
In TORG, the Orrosh werewolfs actually die as humans and then rise from the dead as werewolfs. This is similar to what you're talking about, but in TORG, it's most certainly more of a curse than a disease.
Except if you die then you die, you don't rise from the dead. How does TORG avoid the world being overrun by werewolves if every human they kill becomes one?
I believe they have to be "marked by darkness" (an Orrosh zone trait) to come back as a werewolf. IIRC, non-darkness-tainted victims just die and stay dead. I skimmed through a friend's Orrosh book but don't have it with me to check.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 01:15:05 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:59:35 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 29, 2024, 12:43:27 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2024, 12:24:06 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on December 29, 2024, 12:13:14 AMMy problem with Lycanthropy as disease and the way it's mechanically presented leaves me the same way I feel about Shadows. Why haven't these things entirely overrun the planet?
If I were some extremely evil lycanthrope and I knew being a lycanthrope pretty much made anyone infected with it chaotic evil, I'd basically try and spread by super aids anyway I could, putting my blood in the water supply, spitting in food or drinks, the works. turning whole cities into nearly unkillable monsters armies.
sure silver is a weakness, but it's also economically impossible to arm an entire 14th century style army with silvered weapons. you'd win by attrition easily, let alone all the other factors.
So logically it can't be as virulent as the rules might suggest otherwise the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk quickly becomes the bloodiest furry convention in the multiverse.
To become a were it's not sufficient to get bitten by one, you must be mangled to a point you're on death's doorstep. The contagion then might push you all the way to dead, only few survive the contagion, IIRC in my game it has 99% chances to kill you.
In TORG, the Orrosh werewolfs actually die as humans and then rise from the dead as werewolfs. This is similar to what you're talking about, but in TORG, it's most certainly more of a curse than a disease.
Except if you die then you die, you don't rise from the dead. How does TORG avoid the world being overrun by werewolves if every human they kill becomes one?
I believe they have to be "marked by darkness" (an Orrosh zone trait) to come back as a werewolf. IIRC, non-darkness-tainted victims just die and stay dead. I skimmed through a friend's Orrosh book but don't have it with me to check.
Right, and that does make it feel more like a curse.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
BX/BECMI D&D had a setting/expansion book called Night Howlers. It covered a mini campaign in a region where werewolves were trying to live peacefully and found their own little kingdom for shapechangers. And some new monsters.
The rest of the book covered playing a lycanthrope PC.
The zombie apocalypse problem is a concern. You can reduce the infectivity and increase the number of things that kill werewolves to compensate.
Technically speaking, the idea of transmissible bites originates from Hollywood, possibly due to confusion with vampires. Before then, lycanthropy was caused by curses cast by witches or saints, or a skill learned by witches or other evil beings (like vampires).
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
Can't speak for others. Personally, I think that as a DM I'd rather avoid having a werewolf PC in general. Kind of a no win scenario to me. If you let them control the transformation, it's an upgrade. If you run it more traditionally, it's just a hassle. Now you have to track phases of the moon and derail the game for one night every month to deal with it. The first couple times it'll be interesting. PCs wake up to find some friendly ally murdered or get attacked by one of their compatriots in wolf form. Good stuff. Problem is that after one or two times, they're going to clock what's going on and come up with a reliable countermeasure. Then it just becomes a minor hassle and eventually a boring routine.
Sorry, I need to make a correction. In a number of cultures, religious leaders have spiritual animal connections loosely analogous to the D&D druid. While they don't transform, they do engage in spiritual combat that invokes the power of animal totems.
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 29, 2024, 10:30:11 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
Can't speak for others. Personally, I think that as a DM I'd rather avoid having a werewolf PC in general. Kind of a no win scenario to me. If you let them control the transformation, it's an upgrade. If you run it more traditionally, it's just a hassle. Now you have to track phases of the moon and derail the game for one night every month to deal with it. The first couple times it'll be interesting. PCs wake up to find some friendly ally murdered or get attacked by one of their compatriots in wolf form. Good stuff. Problem is that after one or two times, they're going to clock what's going on and come up with a reliable countermeasure. Then it just becomes a minor hassle and eventually a boring routine.
Yeah, the problem with the Talbot style lycanthropy is that it's a one-trick pony. There's only so many stories you can tell with such precise limitations. Werewolf themed media has been hugely stagnant as a result of this.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 29, 2024, 08:16:55 AMThe zombie apocalypse problem is a concern. You can reduce the infectivity and increase the number of things that kill werewolves to compensate.
AD&D 2e has some good limitations on it. Only true lycans (who are born as one) can infect others and spread chance is based on the dmg you suffered (1% per dmg). The true lycan condition really stops the zombie apocalypse problem, but also creates this interesting story element where infected lycans will try to kidnap people to bring to their pact leader (a true lycan) if they try to spread.
I'm reminded of Shiki, an anime/manga/light novel where a vampire family plots to take over a rural town and surrounding villages into making their own haven. While it is obviously vampires for us the audience, people's first reaction is some kind of anemia epidemic and many reject the idea that its vampires because its year 1994 in Japan. It takes 3+ months before people learn its really vampires.
IMO, werewolves have too many things stacked against them to do a similar takeover. Vampires can feed and then spread on the same target. Werewolves have to decide if they will eat or spread (assuming they are intelligent and in control when transformed). Any surviving victim will know some huge animal or monster attacked them which will prompt other humans to form hunting parties while vampires can stay hidden. Vampires have hypnotism and mind control powers while werewolves don't so no human conspirators unwillingly helping you. The infected has to wait for the next full moon to be considered part of the team werewolf while vampires can rise anytime, so once people realize what is going on they have time to find and apply countermeasures. And a big monster attacking will draw hunters much sooner than a vague "people start dying with bug bites" rumors from vampires.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
While lycanthropy hasn't specifically been one of them, the general handshake of a player losing control over a PC has come up a few times in campaigns I have been in.
As a general rule of thumb I never like taking control away from a player. Quite the contrary; I tend to work with the player in metagame and frame the things the PC realizes or knows in such a way that the player can roleplay into it. If you want the werewolf PC to attack their significant other right before transforming, drop in a significant clue that said significant other is cheating.
My basic thought process is that if the PC has lycanthropy, they should wind up attacking someone at some point. Probably multiple people or attacking the same person multiple times. Exactly who and how? I think that's fair to give the player some metagame awareness of and veto power over. But you're playing a werewolf. You're going to bite some people and 9 times out of 10, the victims will be people the PC holds dear and not enemies.
My job as the GM is to drop the lycanthrope transformation in at the right moment.
Another thing that I tend to do is give the actual transformation a mind-clearing effect rather than a mind-fogging one. After the transformation, you are more likely to be able to see what was the lycanthropy talking and what wasn't, but at that point you are fully monster and (the way I play it) you lose the ability to speak and NPCs are quite likely to attempt to kill you. Some werewolves roleplay still being insane as cover to commit assault or murder, but many times they don't. Even if you don't, you are likely to get cornered by NPCs attempting to kill you, and they may force you to kill them in self defense.
Typically, I don't let lycanthropy actually become contagious from a bite. Giving it a reproductive effect makes it too powerful, to the point that everyone in-universe should become a werewolf given time, so I default to a werewolf bite not spreading the disease unless there are special circumstances which happen just enough to sustain lycanthropy in the setting, but not enough to make it prevalent. Making the few instances that a bite turns into spread into an in-universe urban legend preys on the victims' or NPC's minds. It's generally more interesting to see the townsfolk panic than anything else.
My point is that you don't really need to wrench control away from the player to force things to go a certain way. The PC transformed and the player wants to flee? The town guard cornered him, and the PC kills five guards in self-defense. The townsfolk view it as the werewolf attacking the town guard and the PC views it as justified self-defense.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 29, 2024, 08:16:55 AMThe zombie apocalypse problem is a concern. You can reduce the infectivity and increase the number of things that kill werewolves to compensate.
Technically speaking, the idea of transmissible bites originates from Hollywood, possibly due to confusion with vampires. Before then, lycanthropy was caused by curses cast by witches or saints, or a skill learned by witches or other evil beings (like vampires).
Same setting I mentioned above actually went through exactly this problem and for a span lycanthropes threatened to overrun the world.
Someone fought them so much that they eventually ascended to godhood and became the patron of lycanthrope hunters and probably introduced methods of putting them down to the point they are no longer capable of becoming a world threatening menace.
If I recall right there is a kinda-sorta god of shapechangers puttering around too. I'd have to dig the book out and check.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
Last campaign it was explicitly called out in the setting as a transmissable curse, rather than a disease, IIRC. So the paladin couldn't trivialise it. It's something that can be controlled by strong-willed individuals who isolate themselves in the wilderness. Also, since it's trying to make 5e a little more difficult, that setting (Runewild) has curses grow stronger over time & take more and more castings of Remove Curse to actually get rid of.
So the player who got bit by the were-stag got to keep playing. However, he had to make a Wisdom save to not transform on the night of the full moon. The next month, the DC went up by one, and it was from the night before through the night after. Each additional month, the days at risk went up by 2 and the DC by one.
The players found a different way to postpone solving the problem - I usually add a bunch of outside adventures into packaged settings, and the players found in the one they seriously engaged with a magical silver rope that forces shapechanged creatures into their natural forms. Every night the barbarian was at risk of transforming (they learned the hard way one month that the risks were increasing) they tied him up from dusk to dawn.
The first tavern he transformed in the middle of dinner didn't want them back, but that was in a town with too many taverns anyhow. And they hadn't yet been ambushed in the middle of a moon-ridden night when the campaign ended for other reasons.
I just think it's hilarious that, by RAW in 5e, two battling packs of werewolves can't actually hurt each other at all.
It's really going to depend on your edition, I'm guessing (without having looked at it in every edition).
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
I'm actually designing a setting right now where some of the barbarian tribes have animal totems that PC's can eventually pledge themselves to, and become were-creature of that particular tribe's totem.
Since the first iteration of this game will be Savage Worlds, it's easy to build into the game, as the rules allow you to work towards the requirements and once you're there, and you've done all the narrative roleplay requirements, it's no different than being "Prestige Class" in d20.
Side note: I was the one that introduced this idea into 3e back in Dragon Magazine (back in Dragon #313) - man did editorial butcher it... Of course I'm sure others did it in their homebrew, perhaps in previous editions, I can't recall.
Quote from: yosemitemike on December 30, 2024, 09:23:38 AMI just think it's hilarious that, by RAW in 5e, two battling packs of werewolves can't actually hurt each other at all.
That was true when the werewolf was first introduced in the 1E Monster Manual. It's not a 5E thing.
Having lycanthropy be contagious without limits is clearly unworkable in terms of logical world-building. I prefer it where lycanthropy is inherited, but there are some people who have latent lycanthropy that could be activated by a bite, but it's only a small percent of the population. This means some risk for an individual bitten, but once you know you're not one, you're safe.
All I know is that they changed it to a curse in AD&D 2nd specifically to make paladins weaker. AD&D paladins were easily the most OP undead and lycanthrope hunters ever, so of course we can't have that anymore!
Calling it a disease for lycanthropy or vampirism are authors trying to make it more logical and believable that these creatures exist.
We all know that magic isn't real. Even religious believers probably don't think vampires or werewolves exist.
No, it's not a disease. It's a mystical curse. Unknowable, illogical, and powered by eldritch energy from the beyond.
It's not a germ that just mutates you that way.
This; transmissable curse. BTW, anyone know of a great werewolf haunt/adventure book besides all the clan/tribe stuff in Werewolf the Apocalypse?
Quote from: easywolf32 on January 03, 2025, 09:19:00 AMThis; transmissable curse. BTW, anyone know of a great werewolf haunt/adventure book besides all the clan/tribe stuff in Werewolf the Apocalypse?
Not really? There's a few books on lycanthropes for d20/3.x I remember reading, but fantasy games generally treat lycanthropes as monsters. So there's not really much material on
playing them.
Here's a few I found:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/11875/curse-of-the-moon
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/20091/slaves-of-the-moon-the-essential-guide-to-lycanthropes
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/2557/complete-guide-to-werewolves
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/156315/bite-me-the-gaming-guide-to-lycanthropes
Hope this helps.
I have wanted to write my own urban fantasy setting on lycanthropes, but I don't know how many people it would actually appeal to. The White Wolf games disgust me in the extreme because they're ecofascist ableist racist bullshit, but to my disgust they're the only lycanthropy-centric game that developed any following. What the fuck is wrong with gamers?
Quote from: QueenofElflandsSon on January 02, 2025, 03:24:40 PMIt's really going to depend on your edition, I'm guessing (without having looked at it in every edition).
Very. In some editions their own attacks count as supernatural, and in others they do not.
In BX it does not say if a were-creature's attacks count as supernatural or magical.
In AD&D Were-creatures are hit by +1 or better weapons and if recall right somewhere in the rules or an explanation in Dragon it is noted what monsters attacks count as magical.
Found some nice reads on this subject if anyone feels like having a go:
https://dndduet.com/werewolf/
https://dndduet.com/lycanthropy/
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 03, 2025, 04:11:27 PMQuote from: easywolf32 on January 03, 2025, 09:19:00 AMThis; transmissable curse. BTW, anyone know of a great werewolf haunt/adventure book besides all the clan/tribe stuff in Werewolf the Apocalypse?
Not really? There's a few books on lycanthropes for d20/3.x I remember reading, but fantasy games generally treat lycanthropes as monsters. So there's not really much material on playing them.
Here's a few I found:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/11875/curse-of-the-moon
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/20091/slaves-of-the-moon-the-essential-guide-to-lycanthropes
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/2557/complete-guide-to-werewolves
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/156315/bite-me-the-gaming-guide-to-lycanthropes
Hope this helps.
I have wanted to write my own urban fantasy setting on lycanthropes, but I don't know how many people it would actually appeal to. The White Wolf games disgust me in the extreme because they're ecofascist ableist racist bullshit, but to my disgust they're the only lycanthropy-centric game that developed any following. What the fuck is wrong with gamers?
Hey man, that's some great stuff right there, will get em at some point, just went down a rabbit hole myself, my head's bonked.
Here's some good ones I found, think I'll be good for a while now lol.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/17504/dark-of-the-moon-2e
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/390688/shepherd-s-bane-5e
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/17508/howls-in-the-night-2e
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/436277/hunt-of-the-winter-werewolf
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/494214/moonshadow-a-werewolf-adventure?src=by_author_of_product
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/61518/werewolf-the-dark-ages
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/101122/red-blizzard-savage-worlds
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/60375/under-the-skin-hunter-the-vigil
One story within this Dread book https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/83854/dread
Some pretty cool sound rules/situations
https://www.tiltingatwindmills.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/full-moon-intro.pdf
Just stay away from anything by White Wolf. The way they handle werewolves is gross because it takes what would be considered the villains in any sane universe and treats them as the heroes. Ecofascism, racism, ableism, domestic violence, incest, date rape, bestiality, cannibalism, mass murder, human sacrifice, red weddings, etc. One of the lead writers was nicknamed "Satyr" even. The only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.
Thanks, I didn't bother I don't like tribes of werewolves, etc...neither do I want to play one. But now that you tell me that, I'm glad I avoided that crap lol.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 29, 2024, 11:48:01 AMYeah, the problem with the Talbot style lycanthropy is that it's a one-trick pony. There's only so many stories you can tell with such precise limitations. Werewolf themed media has been hugely stagnant as a result of this.
This a fair point. Among exceptions, the Dresden Files novels have several non-traditional takes on werewolves, and those appear in the DF RPG. (It uses the FATE system which I don't like much, but it could be adapted to other systems.)
DF lycanthropes change non-physically based on the phase of the moon. They become animalistic and have heightened abilities but don't physically change into wolves.
DF loup garous are a family curse where someone of the bloodline turns into a wolf-like demon, and can only be harmed by silver heirloom of the family.
DF hexenwolves are a sort of sorcerer who use a magical wolfskin that they put on to transform.
Quote from: jhkim on January 05, 2025, 01:41:42 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 29, 2024, 11:48:01 AMYeah, the problem with the Talbot style lycanthropy is that it's a one-trick pony. There's only so many stories you can tell with such precise limitations. Werewolf themed media has been hugely stagnant as a result of this.
This a fair point. Among exceptions, the Dresden Files novels have several non-traditional takes on werewolves, and those appear in the DF RPG. (It uses the FATE system which I don't like much, but it could be adapted to other systems.)
DF lycanthropes change non-physically based on the phase of the moon. They become animalistic and have heightened abilities but don't physically change into wolves.
DF loup garous are a family curse where someone of the bloodline turns into a wolf-like demon, and can only be harmed by silver heirloom of the family.
DF hexenwolves are a sort of sorcerer who use a magical wolfskin that they put on to transform.
So they used the French name to create a distinction, and the hexenwolves are just skinwalkers.
Also DF?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 05, 2025, 04:33:31 AMSo they used the French name to create a distinction, and the hexenwolves are just skinwalkers.
Also DF?
DF = Dresden Files
I'm not particularly a big fan, but it's a media franchise that differs from the standard that BoxCrayonTales was complaining about.
Ah, lupine theriomorphs. I'm familiar. https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Lupine_theriomorph
I've read Werewolves: A Hunter's Guide and Chill's Lycanthropes for comparison too.
The Hunter's Guide recounts the most common patterns in folklore and fiction. Astral projection werewolves, viral lycanthropy, witches who wear magic wolfskins, people with clinical lycanthropy, and people cursed to spend seven years living as wolves. https://g.co/kgs/fGAXLqx
Chill's lycanthropes include viral (based on The Howling movie, not Universal), witches that use magic, wolfen (ripped off from the movie Wolfen), and hereditary curses (they follow the Talbot rules to a tee, but it's hereditary rather than infectious). https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/2901/lycanthropes
Pelgrane Press had an article on werewolves for Night's Black Agents: https://pelgranepress.com/2018/02/01/the-plain-people-of-gaming-houndhounds-of-bucharest/
While there are a few exceptions like that, overall the supermajority of werewolf media is limited to the Talbot stereotype and generally doesn't go outside it.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMJust stay away from anything by White Wolf. The way they handle werewolves is gross because it takes what would be considered the villains in any sane universe and treats them as the heroes. Ecofascism, racism, ableism, domestic violence, incest, date rape, bestiality, cannibalism, mass murder, human sacrifice, red weddings, etc. One of the lead writers was nicknamed "Satyr" even. The only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.
Nothing new, the left identifies with evil.
That being said having some weres who do not eat people, do not change unwilling victims, makes for a good conflict driving trope... Much like a vampire that uses the blood banks instead of hunting.
Quote from: jhkim on January 05, 2025, 10:57:58 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 05, 2025, 04:33:31 AMSo they used the French name to create a distinction, and the hexenwolves are just skinwalkers.
Also DF?
DF = Dresden Files
I'm not particularly a big fan, but it's a media franchise that differs from the standard that BoxCrayonTales was complaining about.
Thanks, I've heard good things about the novels.
I'm researching Chill again and it turns out that different editions have very different takes on werewolves.
In 1st edition, there's three kinds of werewolves. The "lycanthrope" follows the Talbot rules to a tee. The "common werewolf" is a demon that pretends to be human and can transform at will. The "loup du mal" is a beefed-up werewolf that knows various superpowers. Being bitten by any type turns the victim into a lycanthrope type.
In 2nd edition, there's two kinds. The common werewolf reappears here, but it can no longer infect others. The "loup garou" must wear a wolfskin to transform, which it keeps in its lair.
In the supplement Lycanthropes, these types are forgotten and a completely different set of six is presented, as I mentioned earlier. The different kinds are Howling-style werewolves (infectious, voluntary transformation, become evil upon infection), hereditary werewolves who transform involuntarily under the full moon and become violently hungry when they do (they also have a beefier "werewolf lord" variant), magicians that use magic to transform, astral werewolves that project their incorporeal astral forms (and in some cases can materialize too), real world clinical lycanthropy, and wolfen from the movie Wolfen.
So there's like 10 different kinds in Chill.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 07, 2025, 12:38:53 PMI'm researching Chill again and it turns out that different editions have very different takes on werewolves.
In 1st edition, there's three kinds of werewolves. The "lycanthrope" follows the Talbot rules to a tee. The "common werewolf" is a demon that pretends to be human and can transform at will. The "loup du mal" is a beefed-up werewolf that knows various superpowers. Being bitten by any type turns the victim into a lycanthrope type.
In 2nd edition, there's two kinds. The common werewolf reappears here, but it can no longer infect others. The "loup garou" must wear a wolfskin to transform, which it keeps in its lair.
In the supplement Lycanthropes, these types are forgotten and a completely different set of six is presented, as I mentioned earlier. The different kinds are Howling-style werewolves (infectious, voluntary transformation, become evil upon infection), hereditary werewolves who transform involuntarily under the full moon and become violently hungry when they do (they also have a beefier "werewolf lord" variant), magicians that use magic to transform, astral werewolves that project their incorporeal astral forms (and in some cases can materialize too), real world clinical lycanthropy, and wolfen from the movie Wolfen.
So there's like 10 different kinds in Chill.
IMHO keeping the wolf skin wearing type as a skinwalker wizard/witch is a better option since it gives it the power to wear other skins (even human) thus creating another monster for the PCs to fight.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2025, 02:51:14 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 07, 2025, 12:38:53 PMI'm researching Chill again and it turns out that different editions have very different takes on werewolves.
In 1st edition, there's three kinds of werewolves. The "lycanthrope" follows the Talbot rules to a tee. The "common werewolf" is a demon that pretends to be human and can transform at will. The "loup du mal" is a beefed-up werewolf that knows various superpowers. Being bitten by any type turns the victim into a lycanthrope type.
In 2nd edition, there's two kinds. The common werewolf reappears here, but it can no longer infect others. The "loup garou" must wear a wolfskin to transform, which it keeps in its lair.
In the supplement Lycanthropes, these types are forgotten and a completely different set of six is presented, as I mentioned earlier. The different kinds are Howling-style werewolves (infectious, voluntary transformation, become evil upon infection), hereditary werewolves who transform involuntarily under the full moon and become violently hungry when they do (they also have a beefier "werewolf lord" variant), magicians that use magic to transform, astral werewolves that project their incorporeal astral forms (and in some cases can materialize too), real world clinical lycanthropy, and wolfen from the movie Wolfen.
So there's like 10 different kinds in Chill.
IMHO keeping the wolf skin wearing type as a skinwalker wizard/witch is a better option since it gives it the power to wear other skins (even human) thus creating another monster for the PCs to fight.
The weird thing about Chill 2 is that it depicts loup garou as hereditary.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMThe only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.
Are you sure? I recall one of the Metis NPCs doing something darn close. But its been decades and who cares what WW edgelorded this time because they edgelorded everything they could. Theres alot of weird also in their short lived in-house magazine.
Quote from: Omega on January 07, 2025, 09:12:15 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMThe only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.
Are you sure? I recall one of the Metis NPCs doing something darn close. But its been decades and who cares what WW edgelorded this time because they edgelorded everything they could. Theres alot of weird also in their short lived in-house magazine.
By all rights it should be dead, but Paradox/Renegade revived it. They're still churning out shovelware for it, and after alienating all the old fans by decapitating the lore. ICv2 claims it's still a top 5 bestseller in 2023-4. (ICv2 also says the pandemic inflated the market by over ten times its previous value and now it's currently in freefall.)
It's a terrible game that nobody actually plays as written, but it's still the only option for urban fantasy
and monster hunting. Their hunter game has a huge chip and its shoulder and takes potshots at every previous monster hunting game, including the previous White Wolf games like Orpheus and Vigil, by childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.
Jesus H Christ, why has nobody made better and more popular games by now?
Monster of the Week has horrible class bloat, but it doesn't insult players for wanting to play as part of organized hunter guilds and indeed provides several options in that vein (probably more than necessary, and too generic for my tastes after Vigil's banquet of organizations, but they still care).
There have to be better premises for werewolf games than "psychotic ecofascists try to heroically (/s) exterminate humanity by blowing up gas stations, office buildings and science labs, massacring weddings, and generally being psychotic mass murderers." Who wrote this dumb shit? The author of FATAL?
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2024, 12:47:54 PMI'm curious how many would allow a PC to play the were-version of their character or if they become an NPC when they transform.
I had a player infected once. I let it fester for a few weeks then I ran a short solo session for her.
It was a kind of waking dream were things were not as they seemed.
When she came to her senses, the body of her victim lay before her. Then she realised what was happening.
A creature, one that steps between the worlds, gave her advice. Embrace your fate & your animal instincts, or resist it & seek a cure.
As the DM i told her this meant rejoin the group knowing you are a wererat, or hand over your char sheet & have your character run off into the woods.
As a paladin she chose to spare her friends from the risk & handed over her sheet.
Before I approached this i made sure I was absolutely clear with myself that either option was fine. So i had no bias. I felt it was important in this situation not to lead her choice in any way.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 09:46:11 AMby childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.
That is a gross and misleading simplification of what their game says about orgs (large hunter organizations). What it does say is that as orgs grow, they increasingly develop their own agendas apart from just stopping monsters, and that those dedicated to just stopping monsters increasingly get marginalized and lose influence to those that support the org working for its own sake.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 08, 2025, 10:32:11 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 09:46:11 AMby childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.
That is a gross and misleading simplification of what their game says about orgs (large hunter organizations). What it does say is that as orgs grow, they increasingly develop their own agendas apart from just stopping monsters, and that those dedicated to just stopping monsters increasingly get marginalized and lose influence to those that support the org working for its own sake.
So basically EVERY bureaucracy ever?
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 08, 2025, 10:32:11 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 09:46:11 AMby childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.
That is a gross and misleading simplification of what their game says about orgs (large hunter organizations). What it does say is that as orgs grow, they increasingly develop their own agendas apart from just stopping monsters, and that those dedicated to just stopping monsters increasingly get marginalized and lose influence to those that support the org working for its own sake.
You clearly haven't played the prior editions or chatted with their fans. Everyone hates 5e. It's the one thing fans of World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness can agree on, when they otherwise hate each other. It's insulting garbage that craps on all prior editions with a huge chip on its shoulder.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 11:38:25 AMSo basically EVERY bureaucracy ever?
The game was written by psychotic hypocritical leftists. Don't expect them to have any consistency or self-awareness. They claim to hate bureaucracy while demanding the government increase its bureaucracy. As far as I'm concerned, they do nothing but spew shit.
Most monster games before Reckoning had premises where the PCs worked for an organization that provided them with resources. A private think tank like the Hoffmann Institute in
Dark*Matter, a government department like Bureau 13 in
Bureau 13, an ancient chivalric order like SAVE in
Chill, literal angels like the Messengers in the prior edition of
Hunter: The Reckoning, the various cells, compacts and conspiracies in
Hunter: The Vigil, etc. It was the easiest way to explain how they're able to maintain themselves. Vigil did have a few villainous conspiracies, some you could even work for like Cheiron Group, but the writers rightfully understood that bureaucracy was boring.
Yeah, working for organizations
can reduce PC autonomy. It more than makes up for that by providing
resources: a paycheck, housing, weapons, legal protections, strings in politics, excuses to tell your family, leads in cases... Hunting monsters by yourself doesn't pay the bills, doesn't avoid suspicion, and doesn't provide a lot of leads.
Hunter: The Vigil also lets you play as self-employed freelancers, with the expected high death rate that comes with it. The titular "Vigil" isn't just pretentious ramblings, it actually refers to creating new characters to replace dead ones and continue their "vigil" against the monsters.
Reckoning 5e arbitrarily demonizes organization as a concept, including its own prior editions. One of the supplements exists for no reason other than to take cheap potshots at all hunter organizations previously introduced in the IP like Orpheus Group and the Society of Leopold (for reference, in the official adventure path the PCs employed by Orpheus Group
avert a global apocalypse). It does so for no apparent reason that I can discern besides the new team of writers having chips on their shoulders and wanting to actively piss off fans. That seems to be a common pattern with every long-running franchise that was bought by corpos and revived in recent years.
But we're getting off topic here. This topic is supposed to be about werewolves. There isn't really any decent games for playing those. I did read
Bite Marks on drivethrurpg, but I found it lackluster. While I like having flexibility in terms of lore after becoming frustrated with games typically having tiresome mono-settings, it doesn't present
any settings at all outside of a couple short scenarios. No foundations for politics, no theology, no social hierarchy... So disappointing.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2025, 11:38:25 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on January 08, 2025, 10:32:11 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 09:46:11 AMby childishly claiming "all organizations are inherently evil and you're an evil person for playing them". Eat shit, Paradox/Renegade.
That is a gross and misleading simplification of what their game says about orgs (large hunter organizations). What it does say is that as orgs grow, they increasingly develop their own agendas apart from just stopping monsters, and that those dedicated to just stopping monsters increasingly get marginalized and lose influence to those that support the org working for its own sake.
So basically EVERY bureaucracy ever?
Exactly. If anything, it was a nod to human nature.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 08, 2025, 01:40:54 PMYou clearly haven't played the prior editions or chatted with their fans. Everyone hates 5e. It's the one thing fans of World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness can agree on, when they otherwise hate each other. It's insulting garbage that craps on all prior editions with a huge chip on its shoulder.
You clearly have guessed wrong. I played the hell out of WoD from about 1994-2001, and so did more than half of the plers I currently game with. Around central Florida, there are a few games of 5e Vampire and one of 5e Werewolf that I am aware of, so your absolute is wrong too.
Anyway, Paradox/Renegade's game is ecofascist antihuman racist sexist genocidal garbage written by hypocritical lefto-fascist anarcho-primitivist lunatics. The writers are crypto-nazis who think people like me, and humanity in general, shouldn't be alive because we can't survive in their darwinist caveman hellscape. I refuse to give money to those monsters or play games that insult me for existing.
I don't understand why those nutjobs have zero competition. It's not like urban fantasy is hard to write.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 09:25:25 AMAnyway, Paradox/Renegade's game is ecofascist antihuman racist sexist genocidal garbage written by hypocritical lefto-fascist anarcho-primitivist lunatics. The writers are crypto-nazis who think people like me, and humanity in general, shouldn't be alive because we can't survive in their darwinist caveman hellscape. I refuse to give money to those monsters or play games that insult me for existing.
I don't understand why those nutjobs have zero competition. It's not like urban fantasy is hard to write.
You again appear to love to demonize things you don't like. It's OK to not like something without going full nut-job. You should try it.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMJust stay away from anything by White Wolf. The way they handle werewolves is gross because it takes what would be considered the villains in any sane universe and treats them as the heroes. Ecofascism, racism, ableism, domestic violence, incest, date rape, bestiality, cannibalism, mass murder, human sacrifice, red weddings, etc. One of the lead writers was nicknamed "Satyr" even. The only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.
I'm a bit late to this portion of the convo but I do believe it's a bit more nuanced having been a prior fan of WOD.
one of the larger complaints regarding newer editions is that it softened the monsters a good deal, the appeal of early white wolf games (as advertised, not always as played) was a similar thing with Warhhamer 40k, that being there was no good guys, only shades of grey and black.
Sure the Camarilla were authoritarian to the hilt and and had strict rules, but that was far better than the Sabbat who were batshit insane joker levels of evil.
Sure the Garou Nation are a bunch of eco-fascists who wanted to return the world back to a more primal and savage state, but Pentex like 1000% more evil, like end of all reality levels of evil.
Early White Wolf like Early Games Workshop was aware of their own satire and played it to the hilt, it was the writers and later publishers who didn't understand the nuance of it.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 04, 2025, 10:02:03 AMJust stay away from anything by White Wolf. The way they handle werewolves is gross because it takes what would be considered the villains in any sane universe and treats them as the heroes. Ecofascism, racism, ableism, domestic violence, incest, date rape, bestiality, cannibalism, mass murder, human sacrifice, red weddings, etc. One of the lead writers was nicknamed "Satyr" even. The only thing it doesn't have is male pregnancy.
As a follow up to my first reply.
One awesome idea for a game centered on actually good werewolves, and something I plan on actually writing. are the Benandanti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benandanti). A group of Catholic peasants/monks with reported powers to turn into wolves in their sleep and who hunted down santanic witches.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 09, 2025, 11:33:37 AMEarly White Wolf like Early Games Workshop was aware of their own satire and played it to the hilt, it was the writers and later publishers who didn't understand the nuance of it.
The problem with long-running franchises in a nutshell. Usually I wouldn't care, but they basically own the urban fantasy genre in games and actively murdered better options like Chronicles of Darkness. (Better, not best. I have many reservations with that game's rules and lore, but Vigil and Lost are awesome despite that.)
Hopefully the bombing of Bloodlines 2 will finally kill this IP more or less permanently and open the market to competitors.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 09, 2025, 11:38:32 AMOne awesome idea for a game centered on actually good werewolves, and something I plan on actually writing. are the Benandanti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benandanti). A group of Catholic peasants/monks with reported powers to turn into wolves in their sleep and who hunted down santanic witches.
That actually sounds fun and not gross. Christian werewolves that fight demons and witches. Why is there no game about that? Even if you don't want the game to be about Christianity, there are similar ideas in world mythology about pagan priests that do the same thing.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 11:46:19 AMThe problem with long-running franchises in a nutshell. Usually I wouldn't care, but they basically own the urban fantasy genre in games and actively murdered better options like Chronicles of Darkness. (Better, not best. I have many reservations with that game's rules and lore, but Vigil and Lost are awesome despite that.)
Hopefully the bombing of Bloodlines 2 will finally kill this IP more or less permanently and open the market to competitors.
One of my goals is to get something like that off the ground in the OSR sphere, except instead of playing the monsters you play those who hunt monsters, be that divinely ordained to, or through grit. with later supplements giving good monster options.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 09, 2025, 11:46:19 AMThat actually sounds fun and not gross. Christian werewolves that fight demons and witches. Why is there no game about that? Even if you don't want the game to be about Christianity, there are similar ideas in world mythology about pagan priests that do the same thing.
My guess is it mainly has to do with it's Christian overtones as well as a deliberate misunderstanding of Pagan ideas, which is that they worshiped nature as a beastly mother. in truth many Pagans had just as many prohibitions on witchcraft and debauchery as Christians. hence why good werewolves who kill evil witches hasn't caught on, cause pop-culture has venerated the witch as a good archetype and Pagans as free-wheeling nature hippies.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 09, 2025, 12:06:40 PMOne of my goals is to get something like that off the ground in the OSR sphere, except instead of playing the monsters you play those who hunt monsters, be that divinely ordained to, or through grit. with later supplements giving good monster options.
Good luck!
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 09, 2025, 12:06:40 PMMy guess is it mainly has to do with it's Christian overtones as well as a deliberate misunderstanding of Pagan ideas, which is that they worshiped nature as a beastly mother. in truth many Pagans had just as many prohibitions on witchcraft and debauchery as Christians. hence why good werewolves who kill evil witches hasn't caught on, cause pop-culture has venerated the witch as a good archetype and Pagans as free-wheeling nature hippies.
We have records of Roman and Egyptian religion written by them. We have pagan religions like Hinduism and Shinto right now. It should be pretty obvious that the hippie thing is completely nonsense, invented by hippies in the 1960s.
White Wolf was criticized for misappropriating this stuff back in the 90s and 2000s by those who did the research.