The only thing that makes you people more pathetic is this backpedaling act.

Do you really think anyone fucking believes this shit at this point?

"Is D&D becoming a story game?" isn't about 4e?  Seriously?  

If it is, exactly by what fucking vector is it doing so other than the current edition?  Is 5e out already and no one told me?

This thread was utterly transparent from the title alone, before we even get to the content, and so was it's direction.

Jesus Christ, I only looked in on the thread out of curiosity, I washed my hands of D&D ages ago, I just wanted to see where the "4e sucks" discourse had drifted these days.  It used to be at least marginally intelligent, but this shit has me sympathizing with Pseudoephedrine again.

Quote from: Benoist;402084For FUCK SAKE. This is NOT an ANTI-4E TROLL, BITCHES.

And yet...

Seanchai

Quote from: LordVreeg;402086And my comments on chi are based on Oriental adventures.

I was actually responding to Benoist's statement about monks and chi. Perhaps he mentioned it because of your mention.

Seanchai

Quote from: Benoist;402084For FUCK SAKE. This is NOT an ANTI-4E TROLL, BITCHES.

Sure it was.

The current edition of D&D is 4th edition.

Your thread title refers to "D&D" in the present tense - that means its a thread about 4th edition and whatever design trends it is showing as a game.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;402106Sure it was.

The current edition of D&D is 4th edition.

Your thread title refers to "D&D" in the present tense - that means its a thread about 4th edition and whatever design trends it is showing as a game.

- Ed C.

No it is not.

Do you guys know how to fucking read?

The ACTUAL OP:

   Serious question. With the "narrative logic" that is the basis of both 4E and Pathfinder (see Gamemastery Guide), with the Fortune Cards around the corner, and Paizo's Plot Twist Cards already here, with Action Points and other mechanics allowing players to have an impact on the story/narrative of the game, I think it's fair to ask: is modern D&D a storygame, now?

Can you read the mention of PATHFINDER in there?

Did you miss all these other posts where I talk about other examples, like for instance CRs and Encounter Levels which you know, are NOT PART OF 4E? Or Feats in 3e/Pathfinders as on/off have/don't have switches? GO. READ MY FUCKING POSTS. It's right there for you morons just going in assuming I'm just crapping on 4E!

It is NOT about 4E exclusively, and it is a serious question.

You guys just don't have any fucking argument to contribute other than "hey, I don't have any problem with it, so you must be lying, you must be making stuff up, or you're just pathetic and a poor role player!"

This is ridiculous! What's the deal now? I can't have any fucking issue with any games without you guys doing the police of whether you yourselves have this issue or not, and therefore, whether I'm authorized to have the issue or not? What the fuck is this?

Quote from: Benoist;402065If I was to run core Heinsoo 4E, it's something like this I'd do. I was thinking of a -literally- dark setting, with people cowering in Citadels (the "points of light" thing makes me think of Citadels in the night, with torches burning, keeping the darkness at bay), and Heroes somehow touched by the night and allowing them to perform feats beyond human capabilities. A bit like Corum with his hand and eye, some alien touch that could both allow them to be super-heroic, but also would at times limit or control their actions (which would explain the rules, and maybe could involve some other mechanics like Sanity, switching personalities when the alien thing takes control of the character, or whatever else). Just an idea.

Neat.

Quote from: Imperator;402108Neat.

Thank you, Ramon!

Notice also that I'm ACTUALLY proposing some solutions to my own issues. And I seem to be the one willing to do so! The guys who feel slighted by my approach to the topic? They bitch and moan, but where is the contribution. NO-FUCKING-WHERE. And I'm the bad guy? Damn right that pisses me off!

Is this all about suspension of disbelief?  

Suspension of Disbelief is a choice.  Everyone decides what barriers they will erect in their minds as "requirements" that must be check off before they allow themselves to choose to suspend their disbelief.

It's like how people define the rules that allow them to feel happy.  Some people can never allow themselves to be happy and others are joyful over the little things.   Again, this is a choice.

My suggestion is to try to lower your barriers when gaming.   And if you can't, then only play those RPGs that don't trigger your barriers.

Aspects are a barrier for me.  So is shared narrative control.  They diminish immersion for me so I avoid RPGs with those elements.

Quote from: J Arcane;402019I don't recognize the validity of the "dissociative" language.  It's a bunch of pretentious bollocks that means nothing more than "I don't like/understand it".

Just because you don't recognise the validity, doesn't make the argument invalid. Perhaps it's you that's lacking understanding. A vast majority of the rest of us, whether we love or hate them, clearly see and understand the disassociated nature of the 4e powers mechanic. That in itself doesn't make them bad. Speaking for myself, their implementation just happens to not work for me. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

Quote from: J Arcane;402055I'm not.  I'm not interested in using the RPGsite's pet jargonated bullshit anymore than I am in using the jargonated bullshit of the Forge.

"Dissociative mechanics" is just the latest in a long line of meaningless bollocks that means "I don't like this, but I want to say it whilst sounding smart."

Speak fucking English, or shut the fuck up.  If you can't explain your point without resorting to invented language, then you don't know what the fuck you're talking about anyway.

No, it's a way to describe something without having to type out a paragraph. Don't like it, don't let the digital door hit ya in the ass on the way out.

QuoteMore arbitrary line drawing, and nothing more.  It fails to address the core point that D&D is, and has always been, rife with metagame mechanics, from hit points, to levels, to turns per day, to spells, to Weapon Master attacks, it's turtles all the way down.

So what. I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't. It's not the nature of the mechanics, it's the way they were implemented. How about addressing something anyone is actually talking about.

QuoteAll you've done is declared arbitrarily what "makes sense" to you, and used that as the basis to make value judgements, while hiding behind a lot of pretentious gibberish.  

It doesn't take more than an ounce of intelligent thought to realize why that's as useless a metric as they come.



You're attacking them solely because you can't personally fit them within the story and setting of your game.

That's a stupid thing to judge them on, while ignoring so many similar occurrences.

You're an idiot. Attacking the mechanics because I can't fit them into a story and setting is the best reason to attack them. I prefer my DnD games not to play like Saturday morning cartoons. I don't want to play the RPG equivalent of a bad Anime when I play DnD. For me, the fucking power bullshit sucks ass, especially the martial dailies, which are one of the most moronic implementations of a RPG mechanic I've seen in awhile. Fuck, Faery's Tale makes more sense in the context of the setting than 4e DnD. Why don't get off your high horse before you fall and hurt yourself.

Quote from: J Arcane;402078I just expect better from you people.  There's nothing you and your buddies have written in this thread that's any better than the bullshit on the Forge.  A lot of pseudointellectual posturing and subjective judgement passing as legitimate criticism.

This thread is so full of bullshit it makes me nauseous.

We get it, you don't like 4e.  Neither do I.  But you've been railing against it so long you've lost the plot, and now you're walking into real danger of becoming a gaggle of Mirror-Rons yourselves.

Then stop reading it ya whiny little bitch. I hope ya puke.

Quote from: J Arcane;402088The only thing that makes you people more pathetic is this backpedaling act.

Idiot.

QuoteDo you really think anyone fucking believes this shit at this point?

Who fucking cares? Don't believe it, go the fuck away and stop threadcrapping you fucking troll.

Quote"Is D&D becoming a story game?" isn't about 4e?  Seriously?

Actually, Benny mentioned 3.x too, so while it really is about 4e, it's not just about 4e. It helps if you actually read and understand.

QuoteIf it is, exactly by what fucking vector is it doing so other than the current edition?  Is 5e out already and no one told me?

Idiot.

QuoteThis thread was utterly transparent from the title alone, before we even get to the content, and so was it's direction.

Who the fuck are you, the thread police? Fuck off.

QuoteJesus Christ, I only looked in on the thread out of curiosity, I washed my hands of D&D ages ago, I just wanted to see where the "4e sucks" discourse had drifted these days.  It used to be at least marginally intelligent, but this shit has me sympathizing with Pseudoephedrine again.

Then go start your own thread. Fuck, I mean I hate the forge talk bullshit too, but folks using it is still no reason to throw a fucking diva sized tantrum over it.

Quote from: Benoist;402109Thank you, Ramon!

Notice also that I'm ACTUALLY proposing some solutions to my own issues. And I seem to be the one willing to do so! The guys who feel slighted by my approach to the topic? They bitch and moan, but where is the contribution. NO-FUCKING-WHERE. And I'm the bad guy? Damn right that pisses me off!

Yup, recently I have noticed a huge and positive change on you when discussing 4e stuff with AM, for example. I think that is great, because edition wars were wearing me out.

I have made a firm determination of discussing only things I love, things I want to know about, and things that I don't like but can be solved,like in your post. That is the exact kind of contributions that make me use internet messageboards in the first place. I find the idea most lovely, actually.

You can go even a bit further with it. For example, the division of the monsters in elites, solos, minions and all that could obey to some kind of general hierarchy of hell, or something like that. So, when you are mowing minions, they're so weak because they are just tiny shards of malevolence given form, while more strong monsters may be shards of evil that have been there for a longer time, or maybe they were born from bigger events. So, a minion goblin may be born form a petty act of evil, an elite monster may be born from a cruel murder, and so on.

Dragons are born from massive, terrible acts of cruelty and evil. They're the psychich by product of concentration camps and the like.

Just an idea.

Quote from: Spinachcat;402113Is this all about suspension of disbelief?  

Suspension of Disbelief is a choice.  Everyone decides what barriers they will erect in their minds as "requirements" that must be check off before they allow themselves to choose to suspend their disbelief.

It's like how people define the rules that allow them to feel happy.  Some people can never allow themselves to be happy and others are joyful over the little things.   Again, this is a choice.

My suggestion is to try to lower your barriers when gaming.   And if you can't, then only play those RPGs that don't trigger your barriers.

Aspects are a barrier for me.  So is shared narrative control.  They diminish immersion for me so I avoid RPGs with those elements.

You do have a point.

Were I to play Non-Essentials 4E right now, that's what I'd probably do. I would start by actually not playing a martial character at all (which kinda sucks, because I love playing fighters, but hey, you can't have everything).

If others are playing the martial classes, it would make it a lot easier for me to ignore. The issue wouldn't be there for me, as far as immersion in my own character would be concerned.

As for other mechanics of narrative control, sure, there is always the solution of trying to just get along with it. If I was to play a Vampire game tomorrow with guys I love in a very narrative way, I would just hold my nose and jump right in. People trump games and systems, to me. If I was to choose myself what to run for friends, however, as GM the problem would be harder for me to ignore. If I couldn't work it out in the campaign itself somehow (like the stuff we discuss with the Wrench and Ramon, for instance), I probably would end up running something else instead.

Quote from: Imperator;402134Yup, recently I have noticed a huge and positive change on you when discussing 4e stuff with AM, for example. I think that is great, because edition wars were wearing me out.

Thanks mate. I'm trying, and I'm sure AM noticed as well. I intend to keep that up.

Quote from: Imperator;402134I have made a firm determination of discussing only things I love, things I want to know about, and things that I don't like but can be solved,like in your post. That is the exact kind of contributions that make me use internet messageboards in the first place. I find the idea most lovely, actually.

And that's the thing really. I'm not out there bashing 4E or Pathfinder because they'd be shitty games and that's it. I'm actually trying to discuss stuff that rubs me the wrong way so I can see if someone came up with an idea I didn't think about, or some other way to look at it that would suit my needs, and in this respect, barring a few threadcrapping Bozos, it's already been greatly useful to me. Maybe to others too.

Quote from: Imperator;402134You can go even a bit further with it. For example, the division of the monsters in elites, solos, minions and all that could obey to some kind of general hierarchy of hell, or something like that. So, when you are mowing minions, they're so weak because they are just tiny shards of malevolence given form, while more strong monsters may be shards of evil that have been there for a longer time, or maybe they were born from bigger events. So, a minion goblin may be born form a petty act of evil, an elite monster may be born from a cruel murder, and so on.

Dude, that's a great idea. In my example about heroes touched by Darkness and defending the points of light from the Night, maybe the monsters would be directly spawned by the Night, at first weak, following stronger shadows, gaining strength over time. Maybe these shadows are spawned by the fears of the Citadels refugees which fuel the Darkness around by their own sense of isolation and despair?

Quote from: Imperator;402134Dragons are born from massive, terrible acts of cruelty and evil. They're the psychich by product of concentration camps and the like.

Just an idea.

That actually would mesh well with the whole stuff here. That's cool!