Quote from: cranebump;889637It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping.:-)

To be fair, you've just described American vinegar.  Which is both a cleaning solution and a topping for certain foods.

Which is pretty much my stance on it:  Yes.

But at the same time, I wouldn't say using Greyhawk and Savage Worlds makes that game less 'D&D' though.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;890227To be fair, you've just described American vinegar.  Which is both a cleaning solution and a topping for certain foods.

Which is pretty much my stance on it:  Yes.

But at the same time, I wouldn't say using Greyhawk and Savage Worlds makes that game less 'D&D' though.

Well, I was sorta referring to this.

And I'm not sure which desserts are topped with vinegar, unless you're referring to pickled ice cream?:-)

Quote from: cranebump;890262Well, I was sorta referring to this.

And I'm not sure which desserts are topped with vinegar, unless you're referring to pickled ice cream?:-)

I know people who eat pickles for dessert.  But I was using the word 'topping' more generically.  People over here (up in Canada) use vinegar for their fries, and you CAN clean floors and fridges with it (I have.)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;890396I know people who eat pickles for dessert.  But I was using the word 'topping' more generically.  People over here (up in Canada) use vinegar for their fries, and you CAN clean floors and fridges with it (I have.)

Oooh...looooove me some malt vinegar all over them fries (one of a number of "gross" things I enjoy that my wife cannot fathom [vinegar and black pepper hater is she {yeah...I think she's the one with the problem}).:-)

Quote from: cranebump;890401Oooh...looooove me some malt vinegar all over them fries (one of a number of "gross" things I enjoy that my wife cannot fathom [vinegar and black pepper hater is she {yeah...I think she's the one with the problem}).:-)

Malt vinegar is actually the weaker, safer version.  Up here, we use the 'real' stuff.

But my point is, that I agree that D&D can be a bit of both a Genre, and a System.  Just like Vinegar.

Balsamic vinegar on fresh cut strawberries is a divine desert.

Quote from: DavetheLost;890643Balsamic vinegar on fresh cut strawberries is a divine desert.

I see. And what would be an Arcane dessert?:-)


"FEAT: Strawberry Fields: When you use "Divine Dessert," you activate X additional pleasure centers (where X=your current Charisma score)."

Quote from: cranebump;890652I see. And what would be an Arcane dessert?:-)

"FEAT: Strawberry Fields: When you use "Divine Dessert," you activate X additional pleasure centers (where X=your current Charisma score)."

Balsamic vinegar on ice cream!

A Genre is something like western, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.

D&D as a game is a system. Systems are not genres. D&D settings though uses the fantasy genre with sometimes sci-fi tossed in - depending on the setting.

Declaring D&D a genre is like declaring a fork or a hammer a genre.

Quote from: Omega;890871A Genre is something like western, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.

D&D as a game is a system. Systems are not genres. D&D settings though uses the fantasy genre with sometimes sci-fi tossed in - depending on the setting.

Declaring D&D a genre is like declaring a fork or a hammer a genre.

A genre is a collection of tropes and expectations.  And D&D as a system creates a series of tropes and expectations that no other fantasy game, novel or movie.  Most other game systems you can kinda/sorta make them work within a different set of tropes, but D&D is pretty much its own thing.

Quote from: Omega;890871D&D settings though uses the fantasy genre with sometimes sci-fi tossed in - depending on the setting.

Sci-fi? Like how? What?

Quote from: jux;890941Sci-fi? Like how? What?

Blackmoor, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks etc. has sci-fi stuff in it. Healing cannisters FTW!

Even 5e DMG has rules for laser-guns and modern weapons in them.

Quote from: tenbones;891027Blackmoor, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks etc. has sci-fi stuff in it. Healing cannisters FTW!

And the original wilderness encounter tables included aliens from Mars.

Quote from: DavetheLost;887899To me what makes D&D D&D is equal parts game mechanics and fantasy pastiche tropes.

d20 to hit and saving throw rolls
Class and Level
Armour Class
Hit Points
the 6 Attributes
Vancian Magic
Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes
monsters from Classical mythology, heraldry, folklore, fantasy litterature and the DM's imagination
Polyhedral dice

These are a few of the core elements of the D&D experience.

I don't think the "official" settings are required. We have always played D&D in home rolled worlds. Glorantha could just as easily be played with D&D as Greyhawk with RuneQuest. Actually I think the Glorantha setting is baked in to RuneQuest more than Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms are baked in to D&D at least for earlier editions of the games.

The game has evolved to the point where much of the game vocabulary of 5e is not recognizable to me as D&D anymore. New classes, races, and mechanics, but much of the core remains there. Certainly many OSR and OGL games are recognizably D&D variants even games like Stars Without Number and Mutant Future which take it into the realms of science fiction have an evident core of D&D.

This is all rather an interesting question. Reminds me of "The Problem of the Heap." When does a heap start/stop being a heap? Or evolution: when does something start/stop being that thing? (When did humanity start? At what point does it stop and can be officially called something else?) Or of character: How much change can you make to a character and have him remain that character? If you make too many changes to Bat Man is he still Bat Man?

Half of me agrees with DavetheLost. D&D is specifically a group of basic game tools, those he listed. But half of me says you can eliminate or change some of those tools and it is still D&D. Yes, it is a system, one published on particular dates. But there have been countless changes to it too so the system is pretty fluid. Fluid enough that I could say it is a genre unto itself.

So I suppose it is both. A specific system (or group of systems) and a genre that induces certain feelings within the players that other fantasy RPGs do not. A D&D game is different from your typical Fantasy Hero or Runequest game. The details of the systems create different play styles from the players and induce different feelings within those players. (D&D players don't worry about "spending an action point" to parry a blow, nor do they count energy or mana used when casting a spell.)

Let's not forget the "rules between the lines" of D&D from it's onset. The intent of St. Gary vs. the multitude of interpretations of the books as written, often tweaked to the tastes of the DM's...

I think it does matter that the conceits of St. Gary have become drastically watered down in modern editions. Take this for example -

Quote"During the course of several game sessions, player characters may accumulate enough experience points to qualify for an increase in level. Because the caverns are so far from anyplace where characters can train, the DM may allow player characters to advance without prior training, provided that the quality of play has been very high.

Regulating the amount of time and treasure needed to train is important in the proper handling of a campaign. If you choose to allow player characters to advance in level without training, it should be
because of their playing skill, and the special circumstances of this module. Advancement without training should be regarded as a reward for excellence rather than as a normal part of the campaign.

Poor play does not merit special consideration. Players will not improve if the DM pampers rather than challenges them. If your players perform badly, do not allow their characters to increase in experience level. Be most judicious in how you handle awards to player characters. Allowing foolish and ignorant players to advance their characters to high levels reflects badly upon the game and even more so upon the Dungeon Master who allowed such a travesty to occur.

In effect, it is the excellence of the DM which is judged when the caliber of play by any group is discussed. Keep yours high!"

Though that's not in the DMG (it's from one of the classic modules, take a guess if you can) - it sets certain standard I know a lot of us old-school GM's still adhere to in various degrees.

More importantly I still consider it vital to informing me what D&D is, at least as intended, by St. Gary. How that's expressed at my table might be slightly tweaked. At most people today - who have never even heard of this module or cared to even read 1e D&D, it probably reads as "too hardcore". Not trying to build a strawman here, but I think it's relevant to the perceptions of what the system and the setting is supposed to be.

I think it's important because as I sit back and watch everyone post almost the exact same discussions I've had with others at my table - it shows that the same "sacred cows" that St. Gary cleaved to are very much still in play *systemically* i.e. they exist - but not necessarily application. Certainly not in these words that Gary himself put it (which I know there is a large community of people the can simply say "fuck all that" - sure, but for the purposes of this thread, it's germane.)

And this is where I find myself raising an eyebrow at 5e D&D as a whole... in terms of 5e bringing in folks with these 3e and 4e sensibilities which 5e pays basic lip-service to, but you don't see any extraneous re-framing of WHY these 1e guidelines which *are* there - just kind of tucked in and easily ignored.

Why in my day, we didn't need Action Dice... we had +1 swords... and they lit up. And that's all we had, and we LIKED IT! We didn't have Attunements... we could have forty or more magic items if we wanted! Pried from the cold dead hands of NPC's that tried to kill us! It wasn't Attunement - it was Festoonment! We were Festooned with loot - and we liked it!

oh uh... hehe... sorry, I was digressing.