I know people say, "not compared to game x, or edition x"; but what about as a standalone game? 

For a first time rpg player; I say yes, it is complicated.  For a casual rpg gamer; I say yes, it is complicated.  For someone who has played rpgs for a good while, but has never played any WOTC editions of D&D; it's still a little complicated.  Dang at all the options to consider.  Choices to make.  Etc.

Simple, equals Lion & Dragon.  Simple, equals Tiny Dungeon.  Simple, equals White Box Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game.

Anything more complicated, is a complicated game.  Roll for initiative!!!

Quote from: Man at Arms on Today at 01:44:32 AMSimple, equals Lion & Dragon.  Simple, equals Tiny Dungeon.  Simple, equals White Box Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game.

Anything more complicated, is a complicated game.  Roll for initiative!!!

Everything is relative. Sure, D&D 5E is more complicated than many other RPGs. On the other hand, Lion & Dragon is complicated compared to many systems. Take the rules on parrying, for example:

Quote10. Parrying (Defensive Combat)
...
Characters doing so can engage in «partial» or «total» defense. When engaged in partial defense, characters will suffer a –4 penalty to attack rolls during that round, and cannot move more than their base movement per round (normal unencumbered base movement is 30'). If engaged in full defense, characters will not be able to attack that round and cannot move more than 5' that round (nor can they use any magical object or perform any magic that requires anything other than a free action to activate).

A character engaging in defense, if successfully attacked in melee, may make a parrying roll of 1d20, plus their attack bonus with the type of weapon they are using, if they are parrying with a weapon. If they are using a shield, they add their basic melee attack bonus +2.

If engaged in total defense, the character gets an additional +4 bonus to parrying rolls.

To successfully parry, the character's parrying roll must surpass the value of the attack roll.

If the character successfully parries, he must do a 'blocking' roll, of a d4, or a d8 if parrying with a shield; this roll is modified by the defender's STR bonus. If the shield being used has a magical bonus, that is also added. Finally, Fighters and Clerics get a further bonus equal to their level.

The attacker rolls his damage normally. If the attacker's damage roll surpasses the value of the blocking roll, the attacker does full damage. If the blocking roll is higher than the attacker's damage roll, then the damage was absorbed by the parry.

• Characters doing Partial Defense can only attempt to do one parrying roll per round, except for fighters who can parry a number of attacks equal to their level, but have a cumulative –2 penalty to parrying rolls for each attack after the first that they attempt to parry in the round (so a fighter trying to block the third melee attack in a round gets a –4 penalty to parrying rolls).
• Characters engaged in Total Defense can attempt to parry all attacks against them in the round, but suffer a cumulative –1 penalty to every parrying roll in the round after the first.
• Characters cannot attempt to parry surprise attacks. They can attempt to parry 'free attacks' if they were already engaged in defensive combat at the time of the attack, and are aware of the incoming attack.
• Characters cannot attempt to parry ranged attacks, except for fighters with shields, who may attempt to do so at a –8 penalty.

I'm not saying that the parrying rules are bad. I think it's good to have parrying in a medieval authentic RPG. Still, they're clearly much more involved than TinyD6, say.

There is a difference between complexity of rules and complexity of accounting.  D&D 5E is a mostly simple rules buried under moderate to slightly heavy accounting.  Which is why it becomes a worse game the more supplements you add.

Exception based designs are almost always more complex.

In order of complexity of D&D core rules it goes:

Most Complex
Third Edition
Fifth Edition
Fourth Edition
First Edition AD&D
Second Edition AD&D
OD&D
Basic D&D

With some supplements it goes
Third Edition
Second Edition AD&D (Complete Books + Skills and Powers)
Fifth Edition
Fourth Edition
First Edition (Unearthed Arcanna, Battle System, assorted Dragon articles)
OD&D (Chainmail Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldrich Wizardry, assorted Dragon articles)
Basic

I've often wondered if a simpler and cleaner game would have done better than fifth edition.  I think some of the complexity is part of the appeal.  The videogame style character progression is famiiar to modern gamers while just making stuff up yourself is not.

Quote from: Man at Arms on Today at 01:44:32 AMI know people say, "not compared to game x, or edition x"; but what about as a standalone game? 

For a first time rpg player; I say yes, it is complicated.  For a casual rpg gamer; I say yes, it is complicated.  For someone who has played rpgs for a good while, but has never played any WOTC editions of D&D; it's still a little complicated.  Dang at all the options to consider.  Choices to make.  Etc.

Simple, equals Lion & Dragon.  Simple, equals Tiny Dungeon.  Simple, equals White Box Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game.

Anything more complicated, is a complicated game.  Roll for initiative!!!

The situation gets even more complicated (pun intended) when you account for industry trends changing the baseline rules presented as well as expectations.   Right now, rules light seems incredibly popular and I think that has contributed to the increased size of the OSR niche (still a niche though) relative to what it was before for those who want to return to a simpler dnd style.   Additionally, games that were developed two decades ago as rules light alternatives to the dnd 3.x/d20 style prevalent back then are more just rules "medium" nowadays (Savage Worlds comes to mind as an example) compared to the crop of rules light games you mentioned in your post.

As someone who has read and play tested several systems, I feel that 5e is about a 3 of 10 in complexity.  What makes it seem complex is two-fold; layers of pointless options and absolute shit technical writing and editing.  5e could be presented in a booklet of about 30 pages if properly presented.  It isn't a complexity issue, it's a presentation issue.

I have two handouts I give new players.  The first is a step-by-step guide to creating a PC straight from the book on a paper PC sheet.  The second is a consolidated combat rules covering initiative, turn structure, actions and bonus action, all modifiers, all advantage/disadvantage conditions, and most special situations that apply to combat.  Both of these take up a single sheet.   

The way I would say it is that 5th edition has a simple core system, which is then complicated by the options for character customization etc. This is broadly true of most versions of D&D and games derived from it. You could contrast that with something like the Rolemaster/MERP family of games, which have considerably more complicated core systems, but then the character options don't add a lot of complexity on top of that.

Personally I prefer the latter approach (though I just prefer a simpler game in general.) But I suspect the way D&D does it is commercially more effective. It gives a low barrier to entry with a lot of complexity that can be added on once people are invested in the game (and of course facilitates selling supplement books with more character options).

This is a thread with a lot of good posts, and I doubt I can really offer anything better.
I'd describe 5e as a complex system.  The 5e table I play at, I often offer help with the rules because I know them well, and there's routinely confusion and look-ups.  I'd argue it's simpler than third (which this table played for years), but it seems mostly like a wash.  I will say that it doesn't really offer any multilayer build stuff, which is, I'd argue, what really makes a complex RPG really complex.  Like if your guy has a class feature and two feats which all combine to make a good (but lets assume fair and balanced) effect, that's a piece of complexity that will show up at your table out of the blue, and the closest 5e has to that stuff is mostly in the player's handbook- and even then, 5.5 seems to be smoothing that stuff out. 

But the rules, the execution of combat?  It looks to me like a bunch of players will be looking that stuff up forever, even though it's not super burdensome. 

I'd say that most OSR is less complex than 5e as well.