Cody of Taking20 (one of the few YouTubers I donate to), posted a new video today that is... interesting.
Is Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition killing off the game part of role-playing games? Cody believes that there's been a shift in role-playing over the past couple of years, thanks to D&D 5E and Critical Role, that stresses role-playing over gaming.
[video=youtube_share;Fu7VcSc3QfA]https://youtu.be/Fu7VcSc3QfA[/youtube]
Hmm. I think 5e is definitely less game and combat focused than 4e. But overall it's just more balanced, it's not anti combat or anti challenge. It sees combat as one third of a typical game, not 90%.
I think it has attracted some players less interested in Gamist/challenge the player play. But the numbers of players I see who are only interested in showing off their special snowflake pc's narrative arc is pretty tiny. Most players want the kind of balanced play Mearls designed 5e for.
No. We have more RPG's now then ever before. Look around, don't let this board convince you otherwise.
5e is much better for the kind of D&D played on TV/Podcast. That's obviously more narrative focused and the TV is what draws people into the hobby.
It's hard to market the wargame aspect, because you kind of have to be playing it to see if you like that kind of thing. Watching the attractive cast of Community Roleplay for two episodes just doesn't have that disconnect.
So since 5e can actually be played that way, people who had interest because of those TV things find a place to stay.
Quote from: S'mon;1061699Hmm. I think 5e is definitely less game and combat focused than 4e. But overall it's just more balanced, it's not anti combat or anti challenge. It sees combat as one third of a typical game, not 90%.
I think it has attracted some players less interested in Gamist/challenge the player play. But the numbers of players I see who are only interested in showing off their special snowflake pc's narrative arc is pretty tiny. Most players want the kind of balanced play Mearls designed 5e for.
I would agree that it is less game and combat focused than 4e. However, I don't think that this is more balanced. Whether there is 90% combat, 33% combat, 10% combat, or 0% combat - all of those are fine and perfectly balanced. It's a matter of taste how much combat you're catering to, and I don't think any of them are wrong.
I do note the high popularity of Gloomhaven, say, which is 100% focused RPG-like combat.
Quote from: jhkim;1061707I would agree that it is less game and combat focused than 4e. However, I don't think that this is more balanced. Whether there is 90% combat, 33% combat, 10% combat, or 0% combat - all of those are fine and perfectly balanced. It's a matter of taste how much combat you're catering to, and I don't think any of them are wrong.
I didn't say it was better. I said it had a more balanced - more even - ratio between the three pillars. You apparently have some other definition of balance.
Killing off other rpgs certainly not imo.
Much more known and popular most definitively again imo.
Many who run it using the making videos on YouTube, the Internet to get showcase 5E.
It's also helped with the game being easier to learn and teach.
That's a big ol' negative from me. Pretending to be a magical elf during story time goes way back, DL saga at least. Modules being more story-focused than challenge-focused also goes back to 3rd ed at least, probably earlier.
Since I first got into RPGs in the 90s, the industry was being killed off by... [insert your choice here].
I wonder if, on day 2, someone said "RPGs are dying..."
Nope. I help out running RPGs clubs, one of which is a dedicated 5e group, but even that spawns new private groups for all sorts of other RPGs, campaigns etc for other RPGs.
Some of which are Stars without Number, Call of Cthulhu, Mistborn and other various RPGs that these clubs have helped get going.
I think the opposite. The popularity of 5e has brought more people to RPGs in general. Sure a lot of people start on 5e, but it opens up a large world other RPGs to them that people want to run.
Playing/Running RPGs has never been this good. :)
Well I thought this was going to be about a shift to people talking with funny voices at the table instead of rolling dice. he is just talking rules heft.
At the end he finally hit on what I was thinking the whole time. This is just a perspective issue, many here, myself included have been gaming longer than he has been alive.
He started with the relatively crunchy D&D 3E, lived through the apparently even crunchier(?) 4E and now sees a move towards a lighter system with 5E gaining ground over 3E / Pathfinder and similar rule heavy games.
Those who have been around a while have seen this before in the late 90s, early 2000s when rules lite and story games were the hot new things, and people were lamenting (or in some cases celebrating, always a few assholes) the death of the crunch heavy games that became popular in the 80s, early 1990s.
I remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth when Vampire became popular, then FUDGE, FATE, Powered by Apocalypse, LARPing etc. For a time it looked like the classic Runequest was dead, replaced by Heroquest.
There was some push back, HERO made a good run in the early 2000s before over extending themselves, also the long awaited GURPS 4E which added crunch to an already crunchy game. Mongoose revived Runequest with extra crunchy bits. Riddle of Steel was never huge, but it was visible and definitely appealed to the crunch inclined.
Lots of room for different play styles, rarely an either or.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1061703No. We have more RPG's now then ever before. Look around, don't let this board convince you otherwise.
No kidding when I start perusing DrivethruRPG not looking for anything in particular just checking out what is out there I pretty much vaporlock. There is so much available these days.
The idea that RPing means standing around talking to friendly NPCs but never combat is just weird to me. My PCs use wildly different combat tactics depending on their personalities and a lot of my favorite RPing moments have been in the middle of combat. Stuff like boarding and enemy biplane with a rapier and a bungee cord in a Steampunk game shows a lot more about that PC's personality than how he orders his drinks or whatever.
I havent seen the video (at work currently) but I agree that shows like CR are emphasizing the roleplaying aspect, and shirking the game aspect, of RPGs. For me personally, Gamplay > Plot, so I dislike this approach. I dont think 5e perse is any less gamey than earlier editions. Shows like CR are just playing 5e in a specific way - a way which suits a show, as opposed to a game.
I'm often surprised how little most current gamers known about games besides D+D; that wasn't my experience of the community a long time ago when 1E was overwhelmingly dominant in the hobby, yet everyone knew about, and often played other things. It feels like a bit of a mono culture crop growing the middle of an old abandoned lot full of wild flowers. The new-ish 5E players I know don't seem particularly curious about other games, either. On the other hand, it is honestly a pretty solid fantasy roleplaying game. So, its not like they are all playing trash or something.
Quote from: Apparition;1061696Is Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition killing off the game part of role-playing games? Cody believes that there's been a shift in role-playing over the past couple of years, thanks to D&D 5E and Critical Role, that stresses role-playing over gaming.
The crap style of '70s D&D adventure gaming will never die. It's growing, because fat lazy players are growing.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1061732The crap style of '70s D&D adventure gaming will never die. It's growing, because fat lazy players are growing.
Hey, why all the hate?
Fat, lazy people are cool too; right? ;)
(I am one, by the way.)
Quote from: Larsdangly;1061731I'm often surprised how little most current gamers known about games besides D+D; that wasn't my experience of the community a long time ago when 1E was overwhelmingly dominant in the hobby, yet everyone knew about, and often played other things. It feels like a bit of a mono culture crop growing the middle of an old abandoned lot full of wild flowers. The new-ish 5E players I know don't seem particularly curious about other games, either. On the other hand, it is honestly a pretty solid fantasy roleplaying game. So, its not like they are all playing trash or something.
I agree, this is a concern, but I think 5e is being played in a good variety of ways.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1061732The crap style of '70s D&D adventure gaming will never die. It's growing, because fat lazy players are growing.
It's growing because 70's D&D adventure gaming continues to be fucking awesome.
Even for highly active skinny people.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1061751It's growing because 70's D&D adventure gaming continues to be fucking awesome.
Even for highly active skinny people.
Me and my Stonehell Dungeon players tend to be skinny, like most UK rpg players, and I certainly exercise every day. :) And the game is great fun!
Quote from: Toadmaster;1061725At the end he finally hit on what I was thinking the whole time. This is just a perspective issue, many here, myself included have been gaming longer than he has been alive.
He started with the relatively crunchy D&D 3E, lived through the apparently even crunchier(?) 4E and now sees a move towards a lighter system with 5E gaining ground over 3E / Pathfinder and similar rule heavy games.
Those who have been around a while have seen this before in the late 90s, early 2000s when rules lite and story games were the hot new things, and people were lamenting (or in some cases celebrating, always a few assholes) the death of the crunch heavy games that became popular in the 80s, early 1990s.
I agree with Toadmaster here. Perspective is the answer to most of these discussions. I started playing OD&D before they made monster minis, back when all you could buy were Romans and Vikings and other historical figures. We played a highly "wargame" style at first because that's all we knew, then evolved to a style without minis (what folks call "theater of the mind" nowadays, as if it's a new concept) Played through AD&D and 2E and so on, where games got progressively more complex, and have finally settled into 5E because that's what everyone at the game store plays.
What I find is that my style of play works fine in pretty much any rules set but my preferences lean towards simpler rules sets, so I like OD&D and AD&D and 5E a lot more than 3E and 4E but it's because of rules style and not play style. I can do a combat-heavy game in any rules set. I can do a social interaction game in any rules set. None of this is a function of the actual rules.
5E's Adventurer's League started out with modules which were all "three combat encounters and done" but some of the hardbacks got into questing in Barovia or social situations in Waterdeep. This doesn't mean that the combat situations (or the chances to use tactics on a battleboard) have gone away, but they have been supplemented with other options.
Heck, I'll bet I could run a fun afternoon one-shot RPG session using a chess set if I wanted because the base combat rules are in place but the pawns and bishops and rooks could socially interact in a role-play manner if desired. ;)
Quote from: Razor 007;1061747Hey, why all the hate?
Fat, lazy people are cool too; right? ;)
(I am one, by the way.)
Please stop excluding us skinny, lazy people.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1061725Well I thought this was going to be about a shift to people talking with funny voices at the table instead of rolling dice. he is just talking rules heft.
At the end he finally hit on what I was thinking the whole time. This is just a perspective issue, many here, myself included have been gaming longer than he has been alive.
He started with the relatively crunchy D&D 3E, lived through the apparently even crunchier(?) 4E and now sees a move towards a lighter system with 5E gaining ground over 3E / Pathfinder and similar rule heavy games.
Sounds like he's a Denner, then. Or at least influenced. Trollman relentless flogs this idea that a
true RPG has rules for every single thing it could comprehend, and if you do something that requires making something up or a ruling, then you are no longer playing an RPG; you are playing "magical tea party."
It's obviously a very stupid idea. Strangely, he doesn't seem to like GURPS.
If anything 5e is saving RPGs.
I agree with the Taking20 guy. Not only is there a dramatic increase in the people interested in D&D, but their interest is in crafting a unique personality and acting it out in the game. The mechanics are just a necessary part of the process, and not where the fun is found. Even 5E's relatively stripped-down mechanics are overwhelming for them, and they just roll dice when they're told and don't really engage with the mechanics. Their entire conception of what roleplaying is comes from streamers and liveplay shows.
Even a couple long-time gamers in my group who happily min-maxed 3.x and 4E now keenly get into character, motivation, and roleplaying. They're been watching Matt Colville and Critical Role, and want to participate in today's zeitgeist. And that's not mini-maxing, dungeon-looting, and combat tactics.
So loads of people are flocking to D&D today and they're flocking to D&D as its depicted in Critical Role and other actual play sources. And I do mean D&D - none of the dozen or more newbies I've played with in the last two years have any interest in any other RPGs.
And in my estimation, Critical Role has had a bigger impact on the game today than WotC and the mechanics of 5E.
I guess to me, if there is a zeitgeist change it's just a return to normalcy after 3e-era "I roll Diplomacy on the guard" as a substitute for talking in character. I guess I have seen some players more interested in their PC Backstory - and I started a thread on that here - and certainly there is little emphasis on Build optimisation outside the 3e-Grognards over on ENW. But most players do get to know the basic mechanics, most do enjoy combat and try to win.
Quote from: S'mon;1061710I didn't say it was better. I said it had a more balanced - more even - ratio between the three pillars. You apparently have some other definition of balance.
Quote from: S'mon;1061826I guess to me, if there is a zeitgeist change it's just a return to normalcy after 3e-era "I roll Diplomacy on the guard" as a substitute for talking in character. I guess I have seen some players more interested in their PC Backstory - and I started a thread on that here - and certainly there is little emphasis on Build optimisation outside the 3e-Grognards over on ENW. But most players do get to know the basic mechanics, most do enjoy combat and try to win.
I interpret "unbalanced" or "abnormal" as having negative connotations.
I think 5e is fine - but I also think that 3e and Pathfinder are fine. Both should be around, because both have people that like them.
Quote from: jhkim;1061845I interpret "unbalanced" or "abnormal" as having negative connotations.
I like 5e better than 4e. But I like 4e; it's just a combat-centric RPG.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1061781If anything 5e is saving RPGs.
From what?
It's not like if D&D was shut down by WotC on Hasbro's orders that roleplaying games would suddenly disappear.
Quote from: tenbones;1061850From what?
Ghosts.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1061779Please stop excluding us skinny, lazy people.
Hey, I do hard manual labor to earn a living and support my family; but when I'm at home, I'm a fat lazy person. ;)
If this was 5e's fault, then we would've seen it with red box basic and 2e back in the 80's. 5e is no less complex than those. This is really just a combination of new media platforms and 5e's marketing push on those platforms kicking exposure up. That said, 3e/4e probably isn't at all streaming friendly. I often watch actual plays of systems to get a feel for them and many of them are really painful to watch with the rule here, rule there, lookup modifier here, discuss mechanical tactic X, Y and Z to optimize bonus, etc. They flow like a lead square wheel in quick sand. It may be chess, but no one wants to watch chess.
It certainly could shape future editions to make them even more photogenic and we might see gaminess explored via other mechanics that are easy to pick up and drama well.
Quote from: tenbones;1061850From what?
It's not like if D&D was shut down by WotC on Hasbro's orders that roleplaying games would suddenly disappear.
From the obscurity it fell under.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1061906From the obscurity it fell under.
So I work with a HORDE of normies. None of them know what D&D is offhand from just the name. Like "Hey you know what D&D is?" It's still pretty obscure.
Some know what it is if I say "It's that game those little kids in Stranger Things were playing in Season 1." And their response is... "Oh... that's a real thing? That's weird."
Some older folks might remember it if I jog their memory, and they'll say "Isn't that Satanic?" (to which I respond: No it's Belgian.)
That said, I have no idea what evidence there is that 5e is killing off RPGs.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1061852Ghosts.
:eek: But I'm too lazy to run away that fast!
I think it's fair to say that D&D 5E is changing RPGs.
Quote from: Razor 007;1062037I think it's fair to say that D&D 5E is changing RPGs.
D&D 5e the game, or the non-game media based around it? The game itself doesn't really do anything revolutionary (that was one of the main points of 5e).
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062040D&D 5e the game, or the non-game media based around it? The game itself doesn't really do anything revolutionary (that was one of the main points of 5e).
The conglomeration of it all. It's mapping a path for success. It's like water; it just flows forward.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1062040D&D 5e the game, or the non-game media based around it? The game itself doesn't really do anything revolutionary (that was one of the main points of 5e).
Critical Role has been more influential on RPGs than all of WotC from 3e to 5e.
Quote from: Razor 007;1062045The conglomeration of it all. It's mapping a path for success. It's like water; it just flows forward.
I don't think a social media fad is a path for success.
At the moment, watching other people online do stuff is a thing. I don't know if that has longevity. Reality shows aren't the easy money cash cows they used to be.
Geek chic and superhero flicks aren't guaranteed to last. Enjoy the fad while you can.
Quote from: Haffrung;1061798And I do mean D&D - none of the dozen or more newbies I've played with in the last two years have any interest in any other RPGs.
That doesn't surprise me. Back in the ancient times, most of our gaming club only played AD&D and only bought TSR products. I'd say 60%. The rest of us either dabbled in other RPGs, or became junkies who wolfed down every new game and had to try everything . I think its a personality thing, but I also noticed that some of the dabblers only began looking at non-AD&D RPGs after a few years of involvement in the hobby.
We'll see what's up with these new gamers in a few years. If they haven't wandered over to the next zeitgeist YouTube sells them.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1062094I don't think a social media fad is a path for success.
At the moment, watching other people online do stuff is a thing. I don't know if that has longevity. Reality shows aren't the easy money cash cows they used to be.
I wouldn't be so sure. I have pre-teen kids, and to them and all their friends watching people on Youtube do stuff isn't just
a thing. It's one of their primary forms of entertainment. I don't think it's simply a fad. Look at the longevity of professional sports to see how watching people do stuff can be a mainstream pastime for generations.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1062096That doesn't surprise me. Back in the ancient times, most of our gaming club only played AD&D and only bought TSR products. I'd say 60%. The rest of us either dabbled in other RPGs, or became junkies who wolfed down every new game and had to try everything . I think its a personality thing, but I also noticed that some of the dabblers only began looking at non-AD&D RPGs after a few years of involvement in the hobby.
This also pretty much sums up how I too began playing RPGs. I began with 1E D&&D. Switched to 2E. Then noticed an ad in one of Marvel comics for Robotech which had begun to be shown on North American TV at the time. Then Rifts, after that some OWOD then the rest was history. Chances are good unless one of the other members of the gaming group introduced me to another rpg. Or I came across another ad for a different rpg elsewhere I would have played D&D probably exclusively for many years.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1062096We'll see what's up with these new gamers in a few years. If they haven't wandered over to the next zeitgeist YouTube sells them.
Thanks to Critical Role and Stranger things while D&D may not be a household name it's also not an unknown imo. Sure not everyone knows about it yet it's not like in the 1980s-1990s where it was still a unknown. Unless it's a branded rpg say like Star Wars or Star Trek chances are good that many will not tune to watch the lesser known rpgers. It's not to say it will never happen. Yet I can see more viewers for the rpgers I listed in my post then say something Pundit would produce. It's not a knock against Pundit until I told them about his rpgs he was a virtual unknown in my gaming circle at least. These are not new members and have been playing for years.
Quote from: Haffrung;1062110I wouldn't be so sure. I have pre-teen kids, and to them and all their friends watching people on Youtube do stuff isn't just a thing. It's one of their primary forms of entertainment. I don't think it's simply a fad. Look at the longevity of professional sports to see how watching people do stuff can be a mainstream pastime for generations.
I don't know why members of our hobby insist on blindly being anti-tech luddites. Even for older kids and for many adults You-tube and similar places are their primary forms of entertainment. With the right set-up one can have almost cinema like sound and movie/picture quality at home. It's not a fad and I don't know why again why some insist it will be. Reminds me of some members and devs on other rpg forums insisting that PDFs were a fad. If anything it's getting hard to find some rpgs in stores with a POD option so that they can save on printing and shipping costs.
Quote from: Haffrung;1062110Look at the longevity of professional sports to see how watching people do stuff can be a mainstream pastime for generations.
And if you can appreciate how good the players are at the activity - compared to your amateur attempts - it makes it better to watch not worse. (In my experience).
Quote from: Anselyn;1062120And if you can appreciate how good the players are at the activity - compared to your amateur attempts - it makes it better to watch not worse. (In my experience).
True yet one has to watch with a open mind as well. If the attitude is going to be "it's a rpg that I don't like/play style I don't like it sucks ". Then no matter how good the players are at the activity means nothing to a narrow and close minded person.
In regards to Youtube, I don't see the bitches about it as much different that those of parents when I was growing up against TV and video games. For years my mother fought against us getting an Atari 2600 because "we would just sit on the couch and get fat". Funny thing, after the novelty wore of it went into rotation with all of our other activities.
Comparing Youtubers to professional sports doesn't sync up for me. Most of these people are just good amatuers (some not even all that good). I'm not aware of any youtubers with multi million dollar contracts. Much more comparable to high level amateur sports or local theater groups. It is kind of a disservice to many of them to compare to corporate sponsored media, it is much harder to turn out quality content on the budgets most of these people have. Most are just subject nerds with passion, which is of course why they can turn out good material. No overlords meddling in the content (Google / Youtube excepted).
Quote from: sureshot;1062119I don't know why members of our hobby insist on blindly being anti-tech luddites. Even for older kids and for many adults You-tube and similar places are their primary forms of entertainment. With the right set-up one can have almost cinema like sound and movie/picture quality at home. It's not a fad and I don't know why again why some insist it will be. Reminds me of some members and devs on other rpg forums insisting that PDFs were a fad. If anything it's getting hard to find some rpgs in stores with a POD option so that they can save on printing and shipping costs.
Streaming isn't a fad. That's new tech, especially as its leaped from desktop to mobile to big screen TVs. However, the watching of amateurs doing stuff might not be a forever thing, just like how people burnt out on reality shows, thus narrowing that field. You can already see how many YouTubers are engaging in effectively professional lighting and editing for their episodes. In LA, we have LOADS of freelance behind-the-scenes people working for YouTubers who can afford studio production whereas a few years ago, even the top YT producers were doing it solo in their home.
Of course, semi-pro work costs money and if the YT fanbase starts expecting semi-pro level production, the bar to entry for amateurs will rise significantly. That's why I see it as a fad, also combined with generational changes. AKA, the younger siblings want their own cool stuff, certainly different than their older siblings or old stuff their parents like.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1062124In regards to Youtube, I don't see the bitches about it as much different that those of parents when I was growing up against TV and video games. For years my mother fought against us getting an Atari 2600 because "we would just sit on the couch and get fat". Funny thing, after the novelty wore of it went into rotation with all of our other activities.
Comparing Youtubers to professional sports doesn't sync up for me. Most of these people are just good amatuers (some not even all that good). I'm not aware of any youtubers with multi million dollar contracts. Much more comparable to high level amateur sports or local theater groups. It is kind of a disservice to many of them to compare to corporate sponsored media, it is much harder to turn out quality content on the budgets most of these people have. Most are just subject nerds with passion, which is of course why they can turn out good material. No overlords meddling in the content (Google / Youtube excepted).
Also what things are fun to watch and what things are fun to do can be really different.
The sports I like playing are horribly boring to watch and the sports I like watching would be horribly boring for me to play since they'd require so much repetitive practice.
Remember when you used to go to your friend's house to watch him play Nintendo? Streaming is just that, now you can experience all the joy of watching the back of your friend's head as he refuses to let you have a go at Sonic, with none of the inconvenience of having to actually make a friend.
I think that more likely, what you're seeing is a swing back from a long period where mechanics took precedence over role-playing.
3e was crunch-over-fluff to begin with, and it became much more crunch-focused as time went by.
Then it was replaced by The Abomination, which was designed on the theory that D&D should only be a 'gamist' Forge-theory game and to design it accordingly.
5e is a swing back to the other side, putting more emphasis on being more loose with the rules, and focusing a great deal on RP. This is closer to my own style, actually, so I don't find this a big problem in and of itself.