Quote from: Axiomatic;474848Well, Dark Heresy is explicitly not set in the real world nor does it follow the laws of the real world, because in the real world, you don't summon armies of flesh rending daemons by masturbating too hard.

In general, taking Wh40k too seriously is a bad idea, because in Wh40k, merely experiencing the emotion of hope fuels the forces of Insanely Scheming Bird Satan.

Of course, NOT experiencing the emotion of hope fuels the forces of Morbidly Obese Plague Satan.

And being angry about it fuels the forces of Angry Chainsaw Satan.

Etc.

I'm just saying that to take WH40k seriously as how the real world works is...absurd, because WH40k is absurd.

People in 0k don't summon one of the chaos gods or its minions through just feeling emotion and certainly not hope. There's plenty of hope in the 40k universe; it's what keeps the Imperium alive. That and the Big Black Ships where all the psykers go that noone talks about.

Quote from: Axiomatic;474848Well, Dark Heresy is explicitly not set in the real world nor does it follow the laws of the real world, because in the real world, you don't summon armies of flesh rending daemons by masturbating too hard.

In general, taking Wh40k too seriously is a bad idea, because in Wh40k, merely experiencing the emotion of hope fuels the forces of Insanely Scheming Bird Satan.

Of course, NOT experiencing the emotion of hope fuels the forces of Morbidly Obese Plague Satan.

And being angry about it fuels the forces of Angry Chainsaw Satan.

Etc.

That is the kind of game play I find vastly uninteresting.  No matter what you do, everything is futile.  It's not edgy, it's not badass, it's just boring.

QuoteI'm just saying that to take WH40k seriously as how the real world works is...absurd, because WH40k is absurd.

No argument there.  

My point is I find it just a little disheartening when everyone gleefully runs to the Nazi/fascist/oppressor analogues and revels in the DarkSoul BlackHeart play ("because the world is a grim place, maaaaan") and tries to convince people how edgy and hip they are.

Again, how people play at their own table is their business; but let's not pretend that GrimDarke BlakkShado is a more sophisticated method.  That really is sliding into the worst of the Forge inspired drek.

My attitude is however crazy the world an RPG is human beings trying to make the best of it. In the 40k Universe Imperial Citizens whether military, civilian, clergy or Inquisition are just poor buggers caght up in a world that no matter how desperately they try to impose balance disorder is winning.

Among Commissars there will probably be a lot more Cains than Gaunts out there. Hell even Gaunt has been hailed as the 40k Richard Sharpe (as opposed to Caine the Harry Flashman) for all his bluster he's quite a sympathetic character.

Chaos = Muslims
Imperium = America

Now Koltar should love it.

Edit: Valentine Illst, my current Deathwatch big bad, was originally supposed to be OBL + a Cylon version of the Joker.

Quote from: Axiomatic;474805Except Dark Heresy is really no more full of despair and torture porn than, say, Call of Cthulhu: Delta Green or Shadowrun or any other paranormal-investigation game.

This is basically what happens:

**Snip**

You take a few months off for R&R, and then repeat the process.

You don't go about imprisoning peaceful protesters practicing civil disobedience because they want their local planetary governor to reduce graft by 12%, you go about shooting cultists who have pledged their bodies and souls to the forces of Ultimate Corruption and are planning on dragging the entire planet into the Hell Dimension.

That's pretty much it.  Word.

Quote from: StormBringer;474866My point is I find it just a little disheartening when everyone gleefully runs to the Nazi/fascist/oppressor analogues and revels in the DarkSoul BlackHeart play ("because the world is a grim place, maaaaan") and tries to convince people how edgy and hip they are.

Not everyone automatically drifts to that role automatically, especially if they are familiar with the setting.

Unless they just want to be dicks.  Then, I guess that's more on the player.

But the thing is you can do that to any setting.  Star Trek can be taken as Klingons as Russians and China as Romulans.  There's a Dragon article where Gary Gygax mentions basing Greyhawk's humanoids on the indian tribes in the Chicago area.

If 40k was being published by a nasty group of white supremacists or Christian fundamentalists as a lesson manual in hate I could see a problem.  But a dark universe as an indictment of narrow mindedness, racial prejudice and so on?  That's fine because while GW doesn't have a little Palladium style disclaimer in the front cover they assume we will get it because they are so heavy handed.

40k is a morality play centered on the modern great evils.  That's why the Imperium takes center stage so we can see it's futility and folly in clear relief.  Even the old moral evils are cast as powers of chaos, a secondary character that has been eclipsed by the folly of theocracy and willful ignorance.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;474878Chaos = Muslims
Imperium = America

Now Koltar should love it.

The original portrayal of the Klingon's was way worse (in a show where the main cast positively included different ethnicities): white actors with brown muddy facepaint and fu manchu moustaches representing a highly militarised culture and, unerringly, the bad guys. On the other hand, 40k's portrayal of Orks as british (brutish?) soccer hooligans doesn't really compare.

Well, I feel like my last several posts were all for naught.

Thanks, Obama! ...err, I mean, Koltar.

Quote from: Axiomatic;474848in Wh40k, merely experiencing the emotion of hope fuels the forces of Insanely Scheming Bird Satan.

Of course, NOT experiencing the emotion of hope fuels the forces of Morbidly Obese Plague Satan.

That's pretty fucking funny.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;474861You don't actually know what misery tourism is then.

He doesn't actually know shit, at all.

40K is such a kitchen sink hodge-podge setting that it COULD conceivably used for just about anything you wish. Especially if you go back to the Rogue Trader days for inspiration. Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau anyone? That's the spirit of 40K to me. Gonzo before gonzo became a buzzword.

I guess over the years, and especially after GW went from an actual games workshop to miniatures shill, it all became Serious Business and the whole piss take angle fell by the wayside in favor of SPIKY GRIM DARK SKULLS EVERYWHERE.

Its Grimdark, its stupid, its pseudo-fascist fanwank. But its not "misery tourism" in the strict definition of the term.

"Misery tourism" would be if the pcs played helpless mutants with horrible deformities, condemned to live in hiding with a constant fear of discovery, bound to eventually be tortured to death by an inquisitor in graphic detail.  That's misery tourism, where you're the victim, and there's no fucking point to anything because you're doomed, so the whole purpose of playing the game is to get off on your character's horrible physical or emotional torment.

RPGPundit

'pseudo fascist fanwank'?

Even if I knew what that was i'd probably still disagree.

40k is what it is. Either like it or don't.

This has gotten beyond stupid; the people that don't like aren't going to be convinced and the people that do are now wasting their time. Especially if we're at the level of calling it 'pseudo fascist fanwank'.

And 40k was always spiky, right back when they gave away a plastic record as an insert in WD concurrent with it's release by the popular beat combo called 'Sabbat'. Oddly enough 'Blood for the Blood God' never made it into the Hit Parade.

40k fanboys have always seemed to love playing up the absolutist excesses of the Empire, with many of them expressing admiration for the excess militarism and the utter and total totalitarianism.

I talked about this in an earlier thread: the difference between the Empire and the Coalition is that while both of them seem to be advocating "fascism/nazi-analogy for the survival of humanity", and both games have players who go out of their way to defend that because of how "cool" they feel it is to play a pseudo-SS officer, in RIFTS its explicitly clear from the text and the setting that the Coalition is completely WRONG, their evil isn't justified; whereas in WFRP 40k the Empire is explicitly Right in that setting.

So in one of the two, the fascist-fanboys are acting against the (at least the stated) perspective of the designers of the setting, while in the other they are acting exactly in accordance with the perspective of the setting.

RPGPundit

Quote from: nezach;47494240K is such a kitchen sink hodge-podge setting that it COULD conceivably used for just about anything you wish. Especially if you go back to the Rogue Trader days for inspiration. Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau anyone? That's the spirit of 40K to me. Gonzo before gonzo became a buzzword.

I guess over the years, and especially after GW went from an actual games workshop to miniatures shill, it all became Serious Business and the whole piss take angle fell by the wayside in favor of SPIKY GRIM DARK SKULLS EVERYWHERE.

Yes, sadly that 40k you're talking about no longer exists, existed for only a very short time, and the fans of today want nothing to do with that setting.  They want the grimdark and the completely-justified Gestapo.

RPGPundit