Quote from: Axiomatic;474653Dude, what?

I'm trying to figure out if there's a coherent point in that, but...I just don't know.

You're right Blackhand had no point in what he posted.

 I'm knocking a setting he likes that is filled with dark and hateful images, so he decides to knock a setting I like that is filled with hope and optimistic images.


- Ed C.

Quote from: J Arcane;474657The mistake you've made here is assuming that Koltar has either read, or played it, before going all fucking Church Lady on this shit.  

That's what annoys me the most - he's not even bothering to learn anything about the game.  He's bashing it only on some half-understood gossip and maybe a piece of art he saw once (though even then it seems he can't tell the difference between German and Russian).


If people weren't so ignorant, they might actually notice there are a lot of different European influences to game.  Why, it's almost like it's a sci-fi equivalent of Warhammer Fantasy.  :rolleyes:

And people should quit shouting Nazis! like some moron at a political rally who doesn't know what he's talking about.  The Empire in 40K is a lot closer to the Holy Roman Empire than it is Nazi Germany.  Anyone half-reading the setting and with any knowledge whatsoever of history should be able to figure that one out.

Quote from: jgants;474671That's what annoys me the most - he's not even bothering to learn anything about the game.  He's bashing it only on some half-understood gossip and maybe a piece of art he saw once (though even then it seems he can't tell the difference between German and Russian).

Bullshit on your assumptions.

 There are at least 20 to 30 WH 40K items in colorful boxes across from my cash regioster every day when I work at the store. We also have pl;enty of Dark Heresy RPG books. I've looked it up on wikipedia before and heard regulars talk asbout that 'universe'.

That thing is so evil Grim/Dark that you have to light a match to find a flashlight to light your way to find a light bulb that may or may not work.

Again, there are No Good Guys in that universe. Every damn faction is corrupt, twisted, or evil in some fashion


- Ed C.

Meh, I wouldn't mind it if Koltar was saying "I don't like the artwork." or "I think the artwork has a subtext I'm not terribly comfortable with..."; those are subjective opinions, which we could argue the merits and flaws of, and ultimately everyone goes home with their opinion.

I'm just not appreciating being told the ONLY way to play Dark Heresy is to play an evil neo-facist, goose-stepping curbstomper who microwaves babies "for the Emperor". Just as it's possible to play a good Coalition soldier in a RIFTS game, or a good Imperial in a Star Wars game, or a good Klingon in a Star Trek TOS game.

People are people; they run the gamut of good, bad, and everywhere in between. Just because the universe is a distinctly f'd up place, doesn't mean that all the people are "irredeemably evil". It just means the universe is much more a place "that tries men's souls".

Just like countless war memoirs relate, even in the very worst of times, most people are merely trying to do the best they can, with what they've got.

Quote from: Koltar;474668You're right Blackhand had no point in what he posted.

 I'm knocking a setting he likes that is filled with dark and hateful images, so he decides to knock a setting I like that is filled with hope and optimistic images.


- Ed C.

No, there was a point, it's just that you didn't get it.  That point is not the one you illustrate in this quote.  It was an answer to your idiotic questions, like "why do they do that?".

Quote from: Koltar;474672Bullshit on your assumptions.

 There are at least 20 to 30 WH 40K items in colorful boxes across from my cash regioster every day when I work at the store. We also have pl;enty of Dark Heresy RPG books. I've looked it up on wikipedia before and heard regulars talk asbout that 'universe'.

That thing is so evil Grim/Dark that you have to light a match to find a flashlight to light your way to find a light bulb that may or may not work.

Again, there are No Good Guys in that universe. Every damn faction is corrupt, twisted, or evil in some fashion


- Ed C.

Nobody gives a shit how many you sell.  

You say this like it's only describing the 40k universe, and has absolutely no connection to our own.  You must be living in a dream reality where these things don't exist.

The other point here is one you should have learned as a child.

If you don't like the way it tastes, don't fucking eat it.

Quote from: Koltar;474672Bullshit on your assumptions.

 There are at least 20 to 30 WH 40K items in colorful boxes across from my cash regioster every day when I work at the store. We also have pl;enty of Dark Heresy RPG books. I've looked it up on wikipedia before and heard regulars talk asbout that 'universe'.

That thing is so evil Grim/Dark that you have to light a match to find a flashlight to light your way to find a light bulb that may or may not work.

Again, there are No Good Guys in that universe. Every damn faction is corrupt, twisted, or evil in some fashion


- Ed C.

I refer you to Dan Abnett. Read Brothers of the Snake and tell me that Brother Seargant Priad is not an honourable and decent sort.

It's Grimdark but it's also heroic. You miss the point if you analyse it that closely you can find nazi parallels. The stakes are just extremely high: the Imperium doesn't discriminate against people on the basis of colour or creed. It doesn't propagate the idea of a master race (well, not really). It believes mankind is superior because, in the setting, it is. This isn't because it's intended to be taken as some kind of thinly veiled crypto fascist treatise, it's because the stakes are that high: the Xenos will lay humanity low, humanity's evolution will be its undoing if unchecked, and chaos gnaws at the corner of every human being's mind. It's a setting for great heroes and that's what the space marines are meant to be: they are no more evil than the Spartans when they cast infants out to die because they are born deformed. It's not pleasant, but no one complains about heroic greece.

You can take the setting on all sorts of levels. If you want to play a noble Imperium agent then that is entirely possible. Or you can play an apostate (soon) and decide that maybe there's a third way that isn't blindly following the Imperium or becoming a slave of the Chaos gods.

Quote from: Koltar;474672Again, there are No Good Guys in that universe. Every damn faction is corrupt, twisted, or evil in some fashion


- Ed C.

Section 31.

Quote from: Novastar;474674Meh, I wouldn't mind it if Koltar was saying "I don't like the artwork." or "I think the artwork has a subtext I'm not terribly comfortable with..."; those are subjective opinions, which we could argue the merits and flaws of, and ultimately everyone goes home with their opinion.

I'm just not appreciating being told the ONLY way to play Dark Heresy is to play an evil neo-facist, goose-stepping curbstomper who microwaves babies "for the Emperor". Just as it's possible to play a good Coalition soldier in a RIFTS game, or a good Imperial in a Star Wars game, or a good Klingon in a Star Trek TOS game.

People are people; they run the gamut of good, bad, and everywhere in between. Just because the universe is a distinctly f'd up place, doesn't mean that all the people are "irredeemably evil". It just means the universe is much more a place "that tries men's souls".

Just like countless war memoirs relate, even in the very worst of times, most people are merely trying to do the best they can, with what they've got.

I wouldn't care to run/play the 40k game that Koltar thinks exists.

I don't think there is a definative good and evil. Just human or inhuman stupidity.

Quote from: Koltar;474672Again, there are No Good Guys in that universe. Every damn faction is corrupt, twisted, or evil in some fashion


- Ed C.

That's a pretty narrow-minded view of the entire setting. Humans are corrupt, twisted or evil in some fashion, but that doesn't make each faction any of those things by design. The Inquisition truly feels it's doing what best for the Imperium, but there are some bad apples, of course. Again, take a look at Dan Abnett's work.

Now, if you're saying there are no flawless, shining, smiling paragons of perfection, then you're correct and I'm glad so. Those kinds of characters are flat and boring. I can't think of a single setting worth its salt where truly "good" characters exist in a realistic/interesting fashion. Of course, that opens the "What is good and evil?" can of worms.

While I agree 100% that too much of WH40K's art is pus-filled, hateful, grim poop, that's not the only aspect to the setting. I can't stand the anachronistic mind-set that people and technology are that backwards. Take Rogue Trader, where they have hundreds of people on a giant treadmill so that some starship's attitude thruster can move. Um....what?! Really? You have genetically-modified super-soldiers, laser weaponry, giant battle-mechs, interstellar travel, etc, but hydraulics are above you?! As I've mentioned, much of WH40K seems to be stuck in the past and thrives all-too much on showcasing the suck more than the reasons those fighting and dying for the Imperium do so.

And being from a hive-world and thinking there's a fucking spirit in your lasgun makes you a moron.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;474683I refer you to Dan Abnett.

His work should be required reading.

Quote from: Koltar;474672Again, there are No Good Guys in that universe. Every damn faction is corrupt, twisted, or evil in some fashion.

Again, incorrect.  You just don't know of any, and to be honest, neither to the kids talking about the game all the time in front of your counter, but they're there, albeit very rarely mentioned these days if not outright retconned.

Quote from: Talking_Muffin;474733And being from a hive-world and thinking there's a fucking spirit in your lasgun makes you a moron.

Actually there is a spirit in the lasgun.  Why do you think an Admech can wave his hand and make it work again?  Because he has implants that are capable of communicating with the self-diagnostic circuits in the lasgun itself.  He might even believe that he "communes with the war spirit of the weapon" but he's basically just wirelessly remoting in and running a program.

Quote from: CRKrueger;474738Actually there is a spirit in the lasgun.  Why do you think an Admech can wave his hand and make it work again?  Because he has implants that are capable of communicating with the self-diagnostic circuits in the lasgun itself.  He might even believe that he "communes with the war spirit of the weapon" but he's basically just wirelessly remoting in and running a program.

I meant literal spirit. I can see a Tech Priest believing in it or a person from a feral world who didn't grow up with technology. But to know about tech and think that it's a spirit is stupid. When said individual waves his hand and readjusts weaponry remotely, that's pretty high-tech and not some "ghost in the machine".

Quote from: Talking_Muffin;474735His work should be required reading.

There are class acts on RPGnet who complain through Eisenhorn he made Inquisitors too sympathetic and human.

Well frankly most of them should be. They're not Genetically Engineered and Pscyho Conditioned. They are all abused children becoming abusers but that's very sympathetic.