No, the foreign policies remark was very much on-topic in this thread.

I really shouldn't have to explain that one.

Thanks.

Quote from: Talking_Muffin;475312I was referring to the ignorant statement of American foreign policies. Some are fucked-up, but still...

Oh yeah, as a tangent, why was Bush blasted for starting an illegal war (that was voted on by a Congress with members who ran like scared, little bitches once it wasn't popular), but Obama gets a pass on bombing the shit out of Libya? Anyhoo, what's FTA/fta/Fta/etc?

Also, unlike Blackhand's seemingly favorite setting - American citizens at least have a say and a vote in changing their leader (president).


- Ed C.

Bush sucked us into a conflict nearly without end that wrecked the lives of millions of Iraqis and injured thousands of Americans.

Obama supported a popular uprising against a dictator that has been an irritant to our leaders, murderer and terrorist for 40 years, defeated him in 6 months, and with as far as I know, zero American deaths. The rebels, contrary to earlier fear, seem to have no connection to Islamic extremism and are expressing democratic ideals.

Bush < Obama

Quote from: Talking_Muffin;475312I was referring to the ignorant statement of American foreign policies. Some are fucked-up, but still...

*Saddam Impression*

Hey guy!  Don't take it so hard!

*Saddam Smile*

Quote from: Koltar;475377Also, unlike Blackhand's seemingly favorite setting - American citizens at least have a say and a vote in changing their leader (president).


- Ed C.

Yeah, but for such a glorious and failsafe system...

There's an awful lot of "recounts" during elections.  Not to mention software or hardware "malfunctions".  

Florida, anyone?

It's a nice idea, though.

Quote from: Koltar;475377Also, unlike Blackhand's seemingly favorite setting - American citizens at least have a say and a vote in changing their leader (president).


- Ed C.

America is a real place.

The Imperium of Man isn't.

Is there democracy in the UFP? In which episode did Picard and co exercise their right to vote?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;475392Is there democracy in the UFP? In which episode did Picard and co exercise their right to vote?

I always took it to be more of a pure communist state, myself.  It had all the earmarks.

And capitalists were always treated as the bad guys (whether it was the Mudd guy, Ferengi, etc.)

Quote from: jgants;475410I always took it to be more of a pure communist state, myself.  It had all the earmarks.

And capitalists were always treated as the bad guys (whether it was the Mudd guy, Ferengi, etc.)

Was never a huge star trek junkie, but watched a bit of next generation and many of the films. It definitely struck me as some form of democratic socialism. I seem to remember some form of elected legislature in 4 (though i havent seen it since it came out in the mid 80s so could be wrong). And in the mark twain episode when picard is trying to convinve twain how good the future is, i believe he says tgey don't use money, they don't have poverty, etc. Always took star trek to be some kind of socialist utopia.

The Federation is what comes after democratic socialism. It's a post-scarcity society. To assign an economic system to it is to misunderstand what economics is.

Quote from: jgants;475410I always took it to be more of a pure communist state, myself.  It had all the earmarks.

And capitalists were always treated as the bad guys (whether it was the Mudd guy, Ferengi, etc.)

Was never a huge star trek junkie, but watched a bit of next generation and many of the films. It definitely struck me as some form of democratic socialism. I seem to remember some form of elected legislature in 4 (though i havent seen it since it came out in the mid 80s so could be wrong). And in the mark twain episode when picard is trying to convinve twain how good the future is, i believe he says tgey don't use money, they don't have poverty, etc. Always took star trek to be some kind of socialist utopia.

Quote from: Blackhand;475380*Saddam Impression*

Hey guy!  Don't take it so hard!

*Saddam Smile*





Yeah, but for such a glorious and failsafe system...

There's an awful lot of "recounts" during elections.  Not to mention software or hardware "malfunctions".  

Florida, anyone?

It's a nice idea, though.

So come up with  better one. Nothings perfect, but I'm still quite happy to be living in the US, I've seen first hand what living conditions are like in some other countries and I'll stick with "fucked-up" America, thanks.

Trek is actually pretty supportive of capitalism - for the Ferengi, it's a viable way of life, and for those who don't dig the UFP post-scarcity utopia, they can always buy a ship and do the Mudd thing, or found a colony.  Thing is, technology in Trek is radically different than in our time, so that if people want to found their Libertarian republic or Socialist worker's state or whatever,they can.  As long as they pay their taxes and support the UFPs foreign policy, and maintain certain universal sentient rights (no slavery, right to vote, etc) the UFP can give a rat's ass how a world governs itself.  The Prime Directive and it's later interpretations lean towards this, and I can see UFP Libertarians arguing that the Prime Directive arose from small government,  respect for freedom Libertarian values.

Also, FFG materials state that the Imperium of Man doesn't gives a rat's ass how a world governs itself,so long as the Imperial Cult is maintained and the world meets it's tithes.  Usually, the fuedal system is practiced because the writers presume that fuedalism is the most effective system for raising those tithes.

When I run DH and RT, I plan on having all manner of socio-political systems in the Imperium of Man, just like I plan on having any number of interpretations of the Imperial Cult, just because the Imperium is that damned big.  Also, I use female Space Marines, because I'm a dirty hippie.

Ironically, the realm of Ultramar is described as being one of the best run in the Imperium, because of the far sightedness of it's space marine lords, with the highest technology levels and quality of life in the Imperium.

Quote from: Sigmund;475433So come up with  better one. Nothings perfect, but I'm still quite happy to be living in the US, I've seen first hand what living conditions are like in some other countries and I'll stick with "fucked-up" America, thanks.

I wasn't complaining.

I like it here.

If you had read the rest of the comments you might see how that dovetails with the conversation.  I don't feel the need to fucking explain it again.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;475460Also, I use female Space Marines, because I'm a dirty hippie.

No sir.  You are not a hippie.  You're probably just quite feminine and have libertarian views that somehow make it feel wrong to play the game like it's written.

There are no female space marines.  That is pure fanwank.

But hey, whatever you like.  Just keep it to yourself.

Quote from: Blackhand;475466I wasn't complaining.

I like it here.

If you had read the rest of the comments you might see how that dovetails with the conversation.  I don't feel the need to fucking explain it again.

I did read the rest of the comments, and don't need you to fucking explain it a first time, let alone again. Koltar mentioned the ability to vote for our leaders and you pulled Florida out of your ass in a weak attempt to "prove" his point wrong somehow. This is conveniently ignoring the fact it was largely due to voter error, rather than system error, and which was resolved legally by another part of our system, not to mention the other 49 states even. I'd say sarcastically referring to our system as "glorious" and "failsafe" is complaining about the issue you first mentioned. Then throwing in the "It's a nice idea though" is you saying it's all bullshit, which is more complaining. You'e allowed to complain, it's a free country, but then I'm allowed to point out what I did too. Trying to convince everyone that your response is somehow something more than a dig at Koltar is also weak.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;475460Trek is actually pretty supportive of capitalism - for the Ferengi, it's a viable way of life, and for those who don't dig the UFP post-scarcity utopia, they can always buy a ship and do the Mudd thing, or found a colony.  Thing is, technology in Trek is radically different than in our time, so that if people want to found their Libertarian republic or Socialist worker's state or whatever,they can.  As long as they pay their taxes and support the UFPs foreign policy, and maintain certain universal sentient rights (no slavery, right to vote, etc) the UFP can give a rat's ass how a world governs itself.  The Prime Directive and it's later interpretations lean towards this, and I can see UFP Libertarians arguing that the Prime Directive arose from small government,  respect for freedom Libertarian values.

Also, FFG materials state that the Imperium of Man doesn't gives a rat's ass how a world governs itself,so long as the Imperial Cult is maintained and the world meets it's tithes.  Usually, the fuedal system is practiced because the writers presume that fuedalism is the most effective system for raising those tithes.

When I run DH and RT, I plan on having all manner of socio-political systems in the Imperium of Man, just like I plan on having any number of interpretations of the Imperial Cult, just because the Imperium is that damned big.  Also, I use female Space Marines, because I'm a dirty hippie.

Ironically, the realm of Ultramar is described as being one of the best run in the Imperium, because of the far sightedness of it's space marine lords, with the highest technology levels and quality of life in the Imperium.

I was told Imperial Governors are apointed by the Administratum. When it comes to their Cabinet it may be possible to have a democratic element but the Governor is a dictator appointed off world.

Not only that but he has the Arbite's guns pointed at his back, and they have the Inquisition's guns pointed at their back. And so on up to the high lords themselves.

Quote from: Sigmund;475476Trying to convince everyone that your response is somehow something more than a dig at Koltar is also weak.

It is a dig at Koltar, and I don't think I ever pretended it wasn't.  A lil' high minded on your part, I think.

Sorry you don't think it deserves any merit, but it does.  No matter what you think, strange things are going on in America - but that belongs on another forum, really.  Playing like it's all fun and games is silly, and this will quickly turn into a dig on you.

www.infowars.com

You win a cookie.

As an aside - have you guys seen Hobo with a Shotgun?  Rutger Hauer's awesome new flick.  Go see it and decide if it's "misery tourism" or if it's just fucking awesome.