You already know that Dark Albion is medieval England with a twist (Europe with magic; Unconquered Sun instead of Christianity; Frogmen instead of normal humans in France; etc.). Hence, how do we know whether the Albion land of Dark Albion exists on a flat or a spherical world?
Okay, this thread is after another thread on a different forum, discussing the merits of a flat vs spherical campaign world. In fact it gave me an idea that I will summarize here:
Most of the time, sword & sorcery and D&D is before all about greedy swordsmen and sorcerers exploring nearby dungeons to pillage their forgotten riches. Normal PCs are just not interested in flat vs spherical world; the idea simply doesn't enter their head. For them the world is as it is, and they just adapt to it as best they can. Now in Dark Albion, people will have much more urgent problems (e.g.: daily survival, and the threatening war of the roses) than to know whether the world is flat or spherical.
Yet, an interesting way where this might come into play, is if the PCs would need some sage (to identify their stolen riches, or know what lurks inside the nearby dungeon), and the latter seems obsessed to know about whether the world is indeed flat or spherical. (I mean, in the world of Dark Albion, maybe Columbus doesn't exist, after all.) So, this would be a plot device to send the PCs adventuring. Hence, the sage thinks that evidence points to the fact that the world is spherical, because for example, horizon and maximum seeing distances that augment if you get higher. However, he thinks that if the world were spherical, those on the sides of the sphere (and especially the oceans) would obviously fall "below." The sage doesn't understand about gravity and all that, and the problem totally obsesses him. So, he eventually hires the PCs to send them far away (such as across Europe, or on the borders of Eire, etc.), and into ancient dungeons, to find answers. But guess what? The campaign will be more funny if the PCs can never find out the truth. Then, if they eventually find proof of the truth, when they come back to the sage, it happens that he died in the meantime (maybe he commited suicide because he couldn't bear anymore to not know... :D ).
Well, if I ever run a Dark Albion campaign, this is the central plot device I will use.
If I ever run this campaign, I also have another idea I would graft on Dark Albion. This is directly inspired from various conspiracy theories I have read. I think they would fit rather well for a "dark themed" Dark Albion campaign. In essence, following the above premise, the PCs will not necessarily discover if the world is flat or spherical, but they will discover a far sinister truth. So:
1) Did any of you ever read that in AD&D Greyhawk: Pelor, the Neutral Good god of the Sun, is in fact truly a deity of evil masquerading as a benevolent deity? Sorry, but I don't remember where I found this, so cannot provide any reference.
2) The Unconquered Sun is... the sun god of an alternate reality Earth.
3) There are conspiracies theories (whether you believe in them or not is not the point, because they are used as plot devices for fantasy gaming) where our world is a huge virtual reality established by some vastly technologically advanced AI, that appears to us as Lucifer, the light bearer. Lucifer is evil, but maintains this prison planet through duality of good and evil (god and devil), that keep souls hypnotized down there, so to speak, instead of getting free from this "prison". So Lucifer masquerades as the good god, while a subordinate Satan acts as the evil principle. But all this world we are in is evil, as the Cathars, and Gnostics before them, believed. So now lets convert this to Dark albion:
4) Dark Albion is an alternate prison reality created by the Unconqured Sun, copied from our real medieval world (which may be a parallel dimension where the PCs could theoretically exit), and where people are "sun worshippers" instead of Christians. Hence, the Unconquered Sun is Lucifer, the bringer of Light. He is obviously the god of Law, but his own law (that of the world he created), not a supposedly universal "good" law. Hence, he is also the creator of demons that bring mayhem and suffering in the world, and against whom the imprisoned souls (i.e.: humans) must struggle.
5) In this scenario, despite what is suggested by the authorities (i.e.: see Chaos Cults supplement), Cathars and Gnostics are not Chaos worshippers, but sincere people who grasp some aspects of the ultimate truth and want to escape this prison world. In such a campaign, I would eventually have the PCs find mention of what the real world should be, that is, one with Christianity and no frogmen at all.
Should I turn this into a published campaign for Dark Albion (and L&D)???
(In any case not before 2019, since I don't have the time...)
I'd say the setting takes place before characters even think if the world is round. It probably is round, but are there printed books on the subject in every library and school, and can all characters even read, or comprehend math/geometry?
Remember, this all takes place before flat Earth scientists teaching courses on YouTube where everyone is expected to operate hand-held computer screens.
Quote from: Turanil;1025031You already know that Dark Albion is medieval England with a twist (Europe with magic; Unconquered Sun instead of Christianity; Frogmen instead of normal humans in France; etc.). Hence, how do we know whether the Albion land of Dark Albion exists on a flat or a spherical world?
Whether the world is flat or spherical was common knowledge among anyone interested in the topic since ancient times. The idea that medieval people thought the earth was flat was an invention of later times.
So, the/some people in Dark Albion should know it, too - whichever case is true.
Quote from: Turanil;1025040Should I turn this into a published campaign for Dark Albion (and L&D)???
(In any case not before 2019, since I don't have the time...)
That would be a great idea.
Rather than completely flat I use a world that was like an inverted shallow bowl. That way I wouldn't need to worry about differences in how observation at sea works.
Quote from: Turanil;1025039If I ever run this campaign, I also have another idea I would graft on Dark Albion. This is directly inspired from various conspiracy theories I have read. I think they would fit rather well for a "dark themed" Dark Albion campaign. In essence, following the above premise, the PCs will not necessarily discover if the world is flat or spherical, but they will discover a far sinister truth. So:
1) Did any of you ever read that in AD&D Greyhawk: Pelor, the Neutral Good god of the Sun, is in fact truly a deity of evil masquerading as a benevolent deity? Sorry, but I don't remember where I found this, so cannot provide any reference.
2) The Unconquered Sun is... the sun god of an alternate reality Earth.
3) There are conspiracies theories (whether you believe in them or not is not the point, because they are used as plot devices for fantasy gaming) where our world is a huge virtual reality established by some vastly technologically advanced AI, that appears to us as Lucifer, the light bearer. Lucifer is evil, but maintains this prison planet through duality of good and evil (god and devil), that keep souls hypnotized down there, so to speak, instead of getting free from this "prison". So Lucifer masquerades as the good god, while a subordinate Satan acts as the evil principle. But all this world we are in is evil, as the Cathars, and Gnostics before them, believed. So now lets convert this to Dark albion:
4) Dark Albion is an alternate prison reality created by the Unconqured Sun, copied from our real medieval world (which may be a parallel dimension where the PCs could theoretically exit), and where people are "sun worshippers" instead of Christians. Hence, the Unconquered Sun is Lucifer, the bringer of Light. He is obviously the god of Law, but his own law (that of the world he created), not a supposedly universal "good" law. Hence, he is also the creator of demons that bring mayhem and suffering in the world, and against whom the imprisoned souls (i.e.: humans) must struggle.
5) In this scenario, despite what is suggested by the authorities (i.e.: see Chaos Cults supplement), Cathars and Gnostics are not Chaos worshippers, but sincere people who grasp some aspects of the ultimate truth and want to escape this prison world. In such a campaign, I would eventually have the PCs find mention of what the real world should be, that is, one with Christianity and no frogmen at all.
1 & 2 - An old issue of Polyhedron had Aerth, Oerth, Yarth, Urth and Earth. Oerth IS an alternate reality Earth though arguably a better example would be the Known World/Mystara which is more visibly recognizeable as an alternate Earth though Oerth is a more likely place of origin for said Sun God.
3 - This sounds a bit like the Gnostic Demiurge or Prometheus. There are parallels with Enlil and Enki from the Sumerian flood story in Gilgamesh as well, not to mention the Creation aspect from the Enuma Elish, where the creator beings are the Anunakki (Shining Ones) which etymologically have a similar meaning to the Biblical Elohim in Genesis.
4 - This reminds me a bit of the Ravenloft setting Masque of the Red Death, since it's similar to the idea of Gothic Earth. If it is a smaller scaled down simulation, you could even have a world that is missing the Americas, which would totally vindicate Columbus when he came around. Who knows, maybe there is a Counter Earth on the other side of the Unconquered Sun where the Americas are their own world. Fortunately being a simulation, the Unconquered Sun God doesn't have to worry about things like Lagrange Points.
5 - Conversely if the Unconquered Sun is similar to the Gnostic Demiurge/Sumerian Enlil, then it is possible that Gnostics and Cathars see the Primordial Chaos or Absu as a higher reality, Ialdabaoth being a dark corrupted reflection of Iao who eschews Chaos and creates a world subject to stagnant slow decaying Entropy of Law.
Well, it isn't that clear, but my idea is not to determine if the world on which Albion is, is actually flat or spherical. It's a fun plot device to send PCs adventuring. But in the end, I would personally prefer that NPC sages will never agree on one theory or another, and will try to debunk any evidence opposite to their idea on the subject, so in the end PCs might get their opinion, but it won't be shared by everybody, the common people will probably don't care, and themselves will never know for sure.
I know that Dark Albion is about the Roses War, but I wouldn't know how to involve the PCs in it. As the GM, I would rather just use the Roses War as a background, in which the PCs travel and adventure in a world ravaged by conflict, but trying to pursue their own goals. They would be hired by a NPC sage (probably an astrologer), and be sent in various adventures. It could work like many contemporary TV show: each episode the protagonists solve a murder or what not, but at the same time, there is a secondary, ongoing plot unfolding in the background.
So, with the above premises in mind (i.e.: PCs will find info they cannot know whether it's accurate or ludicrous), the PCs might find an antique map plus explanations, in an old Arcadian dungeon. Here is the map:
(http://cartographic-images.net/Cartographic_Images/108_Hecataeus_files/droppedImage_2.png)
So, what some antique texts suggest, is that the world is basically a flat disk, with the lands being surrounded by an ocean. Then, the sun is in fact considered to be a gate in the sky, leading to the heavens where the Sun God resides, and from which pours the "Divine Light". Now, the world is supposedly spinning on itself, in front of this gate, hence the alternance of night and day. This spinning is "evidenced" by the tides of the ocean. But what happens to the ocean water on the edge of the disk world? In fact it is said to fall below in the sky, and as such transforms into rain. However, since the world is spinning on itself, at some point it rotates so as to be under that rain that thus falls back on the world. Hence, the water that disappears on the edge, eventually comes back on the world in the form of rain. This supposedly explains why no water is lost to the ocean.
This is what the ancient Arcandian text pretends. Of course, the PCs are free to argue whether it seems plausble or totally ludicrous.
If you make the world map on a disk, then you don't even have to specify if the planet is round or flat. Suggesting a world without the Americas is a product of thinking it would make a neat map, as well as the implications of actually being able to sail to China from Europe. Also excluding the Americas wouldn't imply their nonexistence since they haven't yet been discovered. So a lot of older world maps could be used for inspiration.
Quote from: Krimson;1025314If you make the world map on a disk, then you don't even have to specify if the planet is round or flat.
I would not specify whether the world is round or flat. In the back of my mind it's even not a planet, but a sort of grandiose virtual reality created by a tyrannical deity. This would be in a way (but magical rather than technological) like the Matrix. But players couldn't know whether as the GM I decided the world is indeed spherical or flat. But it wouldn't change the PCs lives, since most adventures would be in Europe anyway. It's just a fun background plot device to send them retrieve info for their employer (an astronomer who craves to know, but never will for sure, to his own despair).
Quote from: Turanil;1025318I would not specify whether the world is round or flat. In the back of my mind it's even not a planet, but a sort of grandiose virtual reality created by a tyrannical deity. This would be in a way (but magical rather than technological) like the Matrix. But players couldn't know whether as the GM I decided the world is indeed spherical or flat. But it wouldn't change the PCs lives, since most adventures would be in Europe anyway. It's just a fun background plot device to send them retrieve info for their employer (an astronomer who craves to know, but never will for sure, to his own despair).
Fortunately old real world maps like the one you posted make it possible to just have a map and not specify if that is reflective of the true nature of the world. Sometimes vague is good.
It's a flat spherical planet world.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1025327It's a flat spherical planet world.
The oldest know globe was made sometime around 1490-92. 1504 is the oldest Globe that features the New World, which was inscribed on an ostrich egg. So depending on what era you are in, globes may exist. Still even to this day, projection maps rule with the exception of Google Earth.
It's actually more obvious than you might think. You can actually see the curvature of the Earth if you are by the ocean. Ships on the horizon will only have their masts visible.
It's also the whole principle of the light house. If the Earth were flat, you wouldn't need to bother making them tall, since there would be nothing obstructing the light. But they are tall because they need to be seen over the horizon
Quote from: JeremyR;1025369It's actually more obvious than you might think. You can actually see the curvature of the Earth if you are by the ocean. Ships on the horizon will only have their masts visible.
It's also the whole principle of the light house. If the Earth were flat, you wouldn't need to bother making them tall, since there would be nothing obstructing the light. But they are tall because they need to be seen over the horizon
Yeah, and for ease of gaming I would keep that. However, there would still be NPCs who claim the world to be flat. They would have some theories about this curvature effect, or would just arrogantly discard it as "being irrelevant". A possible theory, deriving from my precedednt post about the flat world rotating on itself: some sages would speculate that since the world rotates, then, what you can't see behind the horizon, is a part that is already "more rotated that the part you are standing in." The explanation doesn't need to make sense. In fact, science in the middle-ages rarely made sense. I have read an anecdote: Once, several centuries ago, in France, some bits of a meteorite fell in a peasant's farming field. He took a few of them and brought them to savants in some university. These "scientists" dismissed him as if he were a simpleton, telling him that "everyone knows that rocks are too heavy to fly in the sky". Period.
My idea with flat vs. spherical is that it might be a plot device where some NPCs direly argue over the notion. Thus, an incentive to hire the PCs to go after clues and thus into adventures. And then, even if the players believe that their PCs found evidence that the world can only be spherical, the PCs are unable to convince those who think otherwise. You understand: I don't care myself if the campaign world is flat or spherical. I just wondered if that could make an interesting idea to drive the PCs into adventures. So far, reading most of the answering posts, it doesn't seem an interesting plot device though.
Quote from: Turanil;1025306Well, it isn't that clear, but my idea is not to determine if the world on which Albion is, is actually flat or spherical. It's a fun plot device to send PCs adventuring.
Eratosthenes calculated the diameter of the Earth without leaving Alexandria over 2000 years ago. It was already known to be round.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1025327It's a flat spherical planet world.
Heresy! It's a hollow cylinder, so that one can use the about-to-be-published map set and still have 'realism' with all the ships at sea. You sail north or south - or 'up' and 'down', if you like - to reach the polar access to the inner face of the map. This allows for inclusion of the next game setting, and increases sales of products.
:D
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1025538Heresy! It's a hollow cylinder, so that one can use the about-to-be-published map set and still have 'realism' with all the ships at sea. You sail north or south - or 'up' and 'down', if you like - to reach the polar access to the inner face of the map. This allows for inclusion of the next game setting, and increases sales of products.
:D
Only lack of ambition holds me back...
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1025538Heresy! It's a hollow cylinder
Observably not. Curvature at sea occurs in whichever compass direction you sail. What you want is not a hollow cylinder but a hollow sphere (or oblate spheroid) with openings at the poles.
You can run this as a campaign premise. Just be ready for the PCs to be in awe of your sages ablity to disapear up his own butt.
Quote from: Headless;1025656You can run this as a campaign premise. Just be ready for the PCs to be in awe of your sages ablity to disapear up his own butt.
Okay, that actually made me laugh out loud.
Quote from: Bren;1025652Observably not. Curvature at sea occurs in whichever compass direction you sail. What you want is not a hollow cylinder but a hollow sphere (or oblate spheroid) with openings at the poles.
Chirine once ran a campaign where the world was a hollow cylinder and people could sail inside. Merely mentioning it for your amusement.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1025668Chirine once ran a campaign where the world was a hollow cylinder and people could sail inside. Merely mentioning it for your amusement.
That's an O'Neill Cylinder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder). :)
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1025668Chirine once ran a campaign where the world was a hollow cylinder and people could sail inside. Merely mentioning it for your amusement.
With the compass directions 'Left', 'Right', 'Up', and 'Down'; the three moons orbited clockwise, counter-clockwise, and in and out of the cylinder. And it was a fun campaign, too, with a couple of guys I knew from the theater as guest players: Jessie Borrego and Don Cheadle. We
did have fun... :)
I have kicked around the concept of a Mobius strip world. Instead of spheres or planes it is something of this sort, as the characters make discoveries beyond the knowledge of sages.
The old hollow world set-up at first thought seems pretty (overly) simple, but if some thought is put into it, it can be very strange.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1025668Chirine once ran a campaign where the world was a hollow cylinder and people could sail inside. Merely mentioning it for your amusement.
Was it rotating to create pseudo gravity on the interior of the cylinder? Cause that would work.
Quote from: Bren;1025732Was it rotating to create pseudo gravity on the interior of the cylinder? Cause that would work.
No; the only reason I had the cylinder rotate was to give the third moon different ground paths on each orbit, so sailors could use it to navigate by. (I like reading and compiling ephemerides, which is why I did my articles on Tekumel's astrology.) Lunar conjunctions were great fun, as tidal effects always seem to catch players by surprise. The sun orbited the cylinder, along with the rest of the planets in the system, because I had a lot of fun building the orrery. Gravity was because I said so.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1025671and Don Cheadle.
THE Don Cheadle?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1025820THE Don Cheadle?
Yep. Great guy, and a lot of fun to be with.
Quote from: Turanil;1025306As the GM, I would rather just use the Roses War as a background, in which the PCs travel and adventure in a world ravaged by conflict, but trying to pursue their own goals.
That's a perfectly legitimate way to use Dark Albion. Not every Albion campaign needs to be about the Rose War. Cults of Chaos, used as a campaign, is about a group of Inquistors, just using the war as a kind of background event.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1026346That's a perfectly legitimate way to use Dark Albion. Not every Albion campaign needs to be about the Rose War. Cults of Chaos, used as a campaign, is about a group of Inquistors, just using the war as a kind of background event.
Considering how much of the Middle Ages there was a war between somebody somewhere, that's excellent advice.
My heart is filled with gladness when I see
Strong castles besieged, stockades broken and overwhelmed,
Many vassals stuck down,
Horses of the dead and wounded roving at random.
And when battle is joined, let all men of good lineage
Think of naught but the breaking of heads and arms,
For it is better to die than be vanquished and live . . .
I tell you I have no such joy as when I hear the shout
"On! On!" from both sides and the neighing of riderless steeds,
And groans of "Help me! Help me!"
And when I see both great and small
Fall in the ditches and on the grass
And see the dead transfixed by spear shafts!
Lords, mortgage your domains, castles, cities
But never give up war!Most modern people just do NOT get it.
Indeed they don't!