Quote from: Acta Est Fabula;537664And it would also be highly unusual for a MU to charm one of the other PCs against their will, putting them at risk, and that player not having a problem with it.

This got me thinking about a situation that ended a long running campaign years ago for my group and caused some friction between players.

The GM was fairly new to being a Gamemaster and started up his home-brewed setting using the 3e GURPS rules.  Basically, it was a standard fantasy milieu, but in his world vampires were taking over the world under the direction of this uber ogre-vampire.  The game run for a bit and we had some good times, and then it fell to the wayside like so many campaigns due to the various reasons that campaigns fall the wayside.

He later wanted to start it up again but using the 3.5 D&D rules, and we were cool with it and psyched for it.  This is where the situation comes into play.  Now, the focus on the game was stopping the vampires from making all human chattel for them, and to do so we needed to gather several artifact-McGuffins as was tasked to us by the Elven Queen.  Sure, no problem, it's pretty standard fair as fantasy goes.  Naturally, these McGuffins are scattered all over world and we go hunting them down.

We wind in the Oriental lands (you know, ninjas, samurai, and etc.) looking for the current McGuffin.  We discover that an ancient and poor farmer has the McGuffin we're looking for and so we go to speak to him.

Oh, some character background would help here too.  We were a high level party of three PCs at the time in the game; other players, and characters, faded in and out of the game, we three were the core.  My character was Rusty Pietester, a 17th level halfling fighter.  Another player had a uber monk, and the final character at the scene in question was a magic-user.

Alright, so we go and talk to the old man.  Turns out that he has a fat and ugly daughter as well (GM's description), and he very, very worried about her getting married off.  The PCs are all shades of good (my character was CG) and so we lay out everything for the old man with unbridled truth with a capital 'T.'  

Turns out the old doesn't really care that the world will got shit and that he, and his daughter, will become vampire blood factory.  His only, and I mean only, concern was getting his daughter married and he would not budge at all.

We scramble for ways to get the McGuffin without killing the farmer and, you know, do it the right way for good characters.  We brainstorm ideas from promising that we'll make every effort to find a suitable suitor for his daughter after we save the fucking world from the vampire apocalypse to enticement of riches since he was, you know, a dirt poor farmer and his daughter would be set for life.  Nope, the old man wouldn't budge.  We couldn't threaten legal action due the weird societal laws in this foreign (to our characters) land.  

Alright, back to brainstorming.  It turns out that the daughter is an excellent cook, even with their limited resources as we discussed this in-game over a meal the farmers served our characters.  Finally, my character, the halfling offers to take her hand in marriage in exchange for the fucking McGuffin.  Nope, he's too short and there would be scandal in the farmland boondocks of this country.  OK, so the magic-user, an older human, steps up and makes the offer to marry her as well.  Nope, no go since he's, you know, a foreigner.

Our brainstorming is winding down and frustration is building since road block after road block is denying us the vaulted McGuffin here.  Finally, the magic-user player says that he's going to cast a compulsion-type spell (I forget the actual spell name at the moment) on the old man and make him want to give us the damn McGuffin so we can move on and save the damn world from becoming a vampire soda-pop.

This is where it all went to hell.  The GM tells us that the M-U is going to get an alignment shift and lose a level since he was doing an evil act.  We're kind of mystified since the spell isn't evil per the RAW.  We point out that casting the spell isn't really an evil act for the M-U.  The GM goes on to explain that he feels that casting any compulsion-type spell is an evil act and that's the way it is in his world.  

OK, fine, no biggie that feels that way, but it's the first time ever that we've heard his position on casting compulsion-type spells- and we've played with for a decade before this situation.  He wouldn't budge on his position and repercussions for the M-U casting any compulsion-type spells.

At this point, we all give up on the game because we have no way of getting the McGuffin from the old without killing him, and, you know, doing an evil act.  The game ended there and to this day we still get into bickering matches whenever compulsion spells are mentioned at our gatherings, LIL!

What say you, is casting compulsion-type spells an evil act?

Quote from: Drohem;537702What say you, is casting compulsion-type spells an evil act?

It is in the Harry Potter universe. One of the Unforgivable Curses is a compulsion spell.

In Dresden-verse, compelling someone against their will via magic breaks the Laws of Magic, and gets your an automatic death sentence from the White Council. (Of course, in that universe such magics have lasting effects. They're not just no-consequence, spell-ends-everything-goes-back-to-normal D&D spells.)

So, this is a fairly common trope. Even in sci-fi, with regards to psionic or technological compulsion.

In most cases, forcing someone to do what you want is morally wrong. You're overriding their freedom of choice, rewriting their mind, and that's never a good thing.

In this case, with this one unreasonable bastard of an NPC (and a GM driving the unreasonableness), I'd allow it as a non-evil use of an otherwise ethically murky spell. "Greater Good", i.e. "saving the planet" means getting rid of the roleplaying obstacle.

On a side note, it seems like your GM had some kind of specific solution in mind, and had pre-decided that only that one solution would work. (I've made the same mistake before, and regretted it.) Maybe he expected you to find a local suitor or something, I'm not sure.

But being that rigid about the situation invited magical intervention, especially from level 17 characters who have many a powerful ability at their beck and call. The DM should have been more flexible, allowing for some solution other than the One Golden Ticket to Finishing the Module.

Also, if this were an Evil act, it should have been made clear at the beginning of the campaign. If it's a core part of his moral philosophy, then it's reasonable. But springing it on you just reinforces the "One Golden Ticket" impression.

Had you tried to use the spell before?

I - Such compulsion spells are arguably evil, depending on the assumptions of the game and the setting.

II - However, a literal save-the-world scenario should be an end that justifies quite a variety of means.

III - Your DM was full of bullshit and a major railway baron, and handling the situation poorly.

Magic itself is amoral the caster supplies the intention. That's it in a nutshell. So depending on the actual intention of the caster it could range anywhere on the moral compass. Seperate from that there could be consequences such as is done in CoC or Mage the Awakening etc.

You GM was probably unprepared for your action though.

Quote from: Drohem;537702What say you, is casting compulsion-type spells an evil act?

Depends, really; no black/white morality and all that. Whether the ends justify the means is up to the character to decide; moral outlook is too complex a subject for a simple variable to track, if that's what you want in your game then you need to go deep - madness meters (Unknown Armies) or Personality Traits (Pendragon). Alignment, or single-track morality meters, are a waste of time; either track it properly, or don't track them at all and leave it up to the players to decide when their characters have gone too far.

Sounds like the biggest problem that you had, was the GM being a dick and not wanting to let you off the railroad.

It's interesting to here that other game systems and settings do consider this to be evil, or, at the very least, a murky grey-area.

The GM was inexperienced and it sure as hell felt like pixel-bitching at the time, LOL!

However, the GM is a life long friend and was the best man at my wedding so it's all good.

OK, so how about specifically in the D&D settings and/or multi-verses?  Is there TSR-D&D or WotC-D&D settings where using compulsion magic is inherently evil?

Quote from: Drohem;537719It's interesting to here that other game systems and settings do consider this to be evil, or, at the very least, a murky grey-area.

The GM was inexperienced and it sure as hell felt like pixel-bitching at the time, LOL!

However, the GM is a life long friend and was the best man at my wedding so it's all good.

OK, so how about specifically in the D&D settings and/or multi-verses?  Is there TSR-D&D or WotC-D&D settings where using compulsion magic is inherently evil?

I would say Dragonlance.

Quote from: Marleycat;537720I would say Dragonlance.

Hmm... now, that's interesting.  It's been a lot of years since I looked at my old 1e AD&D DragonLance modules, but I don't remember if this was addressed somewhere.

As I understood it, AD&D and D&D compulsion spells weren't inherently evil in and of themselves.  I like your explanation above: it's the intent of the caster that determines the morality of the spell use.

It depends on the setting, in some cases it may be amoral and situational, in other cases it may be evil, in others it just may be illegal.

The only setting I can think at the moment where it is 100% evil is Dragon Age, where in order to achieve mind control, you are basically entering someone's mind through their soul's connection to the Fade, thus basically mind control is a form of possession.

BTW - That is one of the few bona-fide examples of pixel bitching I've heard of.  Your GM obviously had one specific route for you to take, and you just weren't seeing it.  In D&D terms, it's obvious that by putting his personal concerns ahead of the entire world, the farmer was being selfish well beyond the point of evil himself.  Charming him and taking the item wasn't evil at all, it was Chaotic.

Quote from: CRKrueger;537727The only setting I can think at the moment where it is 100% evil is Dragon Age, where in order to achieve mind control, you are basically entering someone's mind through their soul's connection to the Fade, thus basically mind control is a form of possession.

That is awsome reasoning tied to the game world!

Quote from: Drohem;537702At this point, we all give up on the game because we have no way of getting the McGuffin from the old without killing him, and, you know, doing an evil act.  The game ended there and to this day we still get into bickering matches whenever compulsion spells are mentioned at our gatherings, LIL!

What say you, is casting compulsion-type spells an evil act?

Out of curiousity, couldn't you have stolen the McGuffin without killing the old man?  

My personal moral compass would be that stealing the McGuffin and/or tying the old man up is superior to messing with his mind.  I would prefer someone to just steal something of mine than dose me with drugs and condition/compel me to hand it over.  

If it was to save the world, than it is likely to be justified and fall into shades of grey - but they should use the most moral/ethical methods to get the job done.

QuoteThe only setting I can think at the moment where it is 100% evil is Dragon Age, where in order to achieve mind control, you are basically entering someone's mind through their soul's connection to the Fade, thus basically mind control is a form of possession.

Very cool. It's like the mirror image of MtAw where all magic is driven from the soul and abuse of it damages the user's soul directly.

Depends on the circumstances. Compelling a guy to give you a fiefdom could be ruled as an Evil act, whereas Compelling a guy about to commit suicide to not do it might be ruled as Good. It's a matter of specifics, to me.

Quote from: jhkim;537759Out of curiousity, couldn't you have stolen the McGuffin without killing the old man?  

My personal moral compass would be that stealing the McGuffin and/or tying the old man up is superior to messing with his mind.  I would prefer someone to just steal something of mine than dose me with drugs and condition/compel me to hand it over.  

If it was to save the world, than it is likely to be justified and fall into shades of grey - but they should use the most moral/ethical methods to get the job done.

Yeah, the McGuffin had to be given freely by the old farmer.  Theft would screw up the juju or something, IIRC.

Damn, if Compulsion spells are evil, then so are Jedi Mind Tricks, hummmm.