Quote from: MatteoN;795697Of course this thread would be more interesting if people tried to argue how classes would make classless based fantasy games better,

Around here we're either too smart (we realize "better" is meaningless in this context) or too lazy for that.

In my case, both.

Quote from: The Butcher;795303Made my day.

Thenkew.  If I cannot edify I at least endeavor to amuse.

Quote from: TristramEvans;795785It was a product of its time. If it came out today in its original form it would proably be lambasted for the bondage fantasy it was.

I think that was the woman researcher's point... that it WAS lambasted as a bondage fantasy... but there was always more to it than that which has been widely ignored... because the real tale is messy, hard to condense to a single sentence.

I don't think any particular genre is "better" for classes or a classless approach.

The favored approach for a particular game will depend more on the players' taste for either abstraction or more simulationist detail. I like class based games and classless games and don't have a preference based solely on genre.

I am not a fan of needless complexity added to simple abstract games for "more realism". If realism were that important then I would be playing another system entirely. In other words, arguing about the realistic qualities of weapons in game with ballooning hit points is a waste of time.

I prefer that fiddly bits such as skills, feats, or other traits stay out of class based abstract systems. A classless system has plenty of room for them and they should stay there.

Classless systems are much better for "building" a character carefully with specific traits in mind. I prefer class based systems for quickly generating a character and just jumping into the game. Having to build a character in a class based system kind of defeats the purpose of a class based system IMHO. The whole point is that you just choose an archetype and go.

Better for s&s than for, say, superheroes? I would say yes.

Better than a classless approach for s&s? I'm doubtful.

Classes have advantages in quick generation, easy role identification, niche protection,  and minimization of paperwork. The balance to weigh is those features against detailed character differentiation, flexible development and 'build' mechanics making an interesting game in themselves.

Quote from: Old Geezer;795789Around here we're either too smart (we realize "better" is meaningless in this context) or too lazy for that.

In my case, both.

I can relate with you, or at least with your laziness, so I'll spare myself the trouble of checking whether I agree with your semantic analysis.

I continue to conclude that overall, class-based is generally better for almost anything.

Quote from: RPGPundit;797614I continue to conclude that overall, class-based is generally better for almost anything.

From what premises?

Quote from: MatteoN;797618From what premises?

From the premise that it's an easy way to convey to the player what the character is all about.  Star Wars d20 wasn't a bad game because a class based system doesn't work for Jedi, it was a bad game because the rules sucked.

Quote from: Old Geezer;797620From the premise that it's an easy way to convey to the player what the character is all about.

Sure it is, but is that concern (almost) always paramount? And I'm not sure the dozens classes of many games (from Palladium to D&D 3.) do that job exceedingly well. In class-based games, to understand why someone is presently playing a character of class x (i.e. what the character is all about) you often have to take into account the character's future advancements...

Quote from: Simlasa;795791I think that was the woman researcher's point... that it WAS lambasted as a bondage fantasy... but there was always more to it than that which has been widely ignored... because the real tale is messy, hard to condense to a single sentence.

Weird as I was just reading an article on the lego movie and it noted that apparently Wonder woman used to have a weakness that she lost her powers if her hands were ever bound by a man.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797629Weird as I was just reading an article on the lego movie and it noted that apparently Wonder woman used to have a weakness that she lost her powers if her hands were ever bound by a man.

More specifically if she allowed her bracelets to be bound. Actually, being tied up and taken to the bad guys hideout was one of her favorite tactics in the original comics. She would pretend to be helpless and then burst out to defeat them (often by using her own magic lasso).

Marston certainly did like bondage and incorporate a lot of it into the comic - and he was also very much behind having an empowered woman.

People are complicated.

Quote from: MatteoN;797618From what premises?

Premise 1: Class based systems are better.

Quote from: TristramEvans;795733Different superheroes appeal to different motives. The Punisher is a very Republican fantasy. Superman started out as an avenger for the downtrodden, but was later sanitized into a facist fantasy. Wonder Woman started out as a pro-bondage feminist fantasy (I kid you not), then became an empowered woman feminist fantasy in the 70s and now...

The original , I think, stood out as not "be just like a man" pseudo-feminism ridden with a male-superiority complex; it was meant as an antidote to such drivel. At least that's what I gather of the original creator's intent: a heroine who would be strong without abandoning typically feminine virtues for typically masculine vices.

Quotenow I'm not sure who she appeals to, don't read that comic. Red Sonja has run the gamut from feminst icon to rape fantasy. Batman appeals largely to conservatives. Iron Man seems aimed squarely at the Maxim crowd, whatever political ideology they represent besides alpha-male fantasy. Spider-man tends to appeal more to individualists. Deadpool to anarchists.

Wow, this is fun.

Actually, no, no its really not.

What is with Americans these days trying to turn every conversation into a political debate? Republicans/Democrats, liberals/conservatives, pinko-commies and facists...YAWN! I miss the 90s when no one gave a crap about politics.

Steve Ditko did a superhero strip that really was Ayn Randian, but I think that was back in the '70s or '80s.

The problem with classes and superheroes is that each superhero has a  very small number of powers from a basically unlimited set of possibiities. There's not much mileage because so many would effectively be classes unto themselves, or else the arbitrary elimination of characters from the domain of what's allowed would be unsatisfying.