Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 04:02:41 PM

Quote from: Krazz on February 24, 2022, 03:38:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 03:11:42 PM
  Again, I am not making Conan out to be a huge monster here, but he is intent on raping her, now if its okay because she is not human, I can accept that.  As for not in control of himself, I think that is somewhat ambiguous after he kills the two frost giants. 

I'm not saying that it's OK to rape non-humans, I'm saying the statement that Conan tried to rape a woman can't be true if the person in question isn't a woman. That's of course independent of whether it was attempted rape. There's no mention of him coming to his senses after he kills the giants, and given how protective of women he is in the other stories, I find it hard to believe that Howard meant for us to read between the lines that he was intentionally out to commit rape.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 03:20:59 PM
  You know what?  I might be wrong about him actively selling them, the guy just mentions Conan slaying his brother and then the Stygians taking him into slavery... So maybe just murderous pirate and not a slaver? 

Yes, Conan was no paladin. To quote Howard, he was "a thief, a reaver, a slayer". Shades of grey indeed, but Howard avoided assigning some of the worst of human nature to Conan, giving him a rough chivalry which often leaves him looking better than some of his civilised foes.

   I do not know about that.  Wanton murder is the worst crime you can commit, and Conan is willing do so at the drop of a hat.  He also betrays several people to take their ship/bandit gang/etc.  So though I agree he does come off better than most of (honestly all of them) his civilized foes, it is simply because we the reader like Conan more, because he is a bad ass, he takes no shit, and the reader sometimes wishes they could just break all the rules.  He has a rough code, but it seems malleable regarding the mood he is in.  If he makes a deal and gives his word specifically, he does not break it and sticks to the deal even when it is better for him to break it.   He is charismatic, and he does change his perspective on wanton slaughter and stealing as he goes through his years (by the time he is a King he feels responsibility and loyalty to a lot of people) but he at some point has displayed pretty much every characteristic of behavior that would get you a life sentence or a death sentence in most places at any time in history.   We excuse Conan because he is brave to the point of insanity, is built like a super Chad, pulls women easier than James Bond, slays his foes (and it turns out a good number of them are terrible people or monsters) in dramatic fashion, and gives zero F#$ks.   It is not because he lacks the worst of human natures, it is because we overlook the bad because everyone loves a winner.

Wanton murder?
Murder:
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

I don't remember a single instance where Conan just up's and kills someone for no reason. Now my memory isn't what it used to so I might be wrong.

IIRC Conan kills in battle (a lot), in duels, in self defense and even when he's been wronged and vengeance is what drives him he doesn't kill you in your sleep but allows you to defend yourself.

Killing in battle can hardly be called murder.

A duel could be unlawful IF the law decdlared it so, thus making it murder by the strict definition (not that I would agree).

And of course only a TDS Dem would call self defense murder.

But again, I might be wrong, if evidence is provided I'm ready to eat crow.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 03:49:26 PM
  I do not see it as between the lines.  Atali is clearly in absolute terror as he chases her after killing her brothers.  And when he catches her and hugs her and tries to give her unwanted kisses...This is described and Conan obviously sees this.  He was around 17 in this story, and maybe he has not yet learned no means no.  Is it your position that her enchantment has caused him to be a rapist?  I could actually accept that as a case, but it is ambiguous given Conan's remarks throughout the chase and killing of her brothers certainly seem to be Conan being Conan.

There's no doubt that Atali is in fear of being raped. I'm saying that Conan is no more in charge of his actions than the reader is. He's enchanted, and that enchantment is backfiring on Atali.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 04:16:33 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 04:02:41 PM

Quote from: Krazz on February 24, 2022, 03:38:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 03:11:42 PM
  Again, I am not making Conan out to be a huge monster here, but he is intent on raping her, now if its okay because she is not human, I can accept that.  As for not in control of himself, I think that is somewhat ambiguous after he kills the two frost giants. 

I'm not saying that it's OK to rape non-humans, I'm saying the statement that Conan tried to rape a woman can't be true if the person in question isn't a woman. That's of course independent of whether it was attempted rape. There's no mention of him coming to his senses after he kills the giants, and given how protective of women he is in the other stories, I find it hard to believe that Howard meant for us to read between the lines that he was intentionally out to commit rape.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 03:20:59 PM
  You know what?  I might be wrong about him actively selling them, the guy just mentions Conan slaying his brother and then the Stygians taking him into slavery... So maybe just murderous pirate and not a slaver? 

Yes, Conan was no paladin. To quote Howard, he was "a thief, a reaver, a slayer". Shades of grey indeed, but Howard avoided assigning some of the worst of human nature to Conan, giving him a rough chivalry which often leaves him looking better than some of his civilised foes.

   I do not know about that.  Wanton murder is the worst crime you can commit, and Conan is willing do so at the drop of a hat.  He also betrays several people to take their ship/bandit gang/etc.  So though I agree he does come off better than most of (honestly all of them) his civilized foes, it is simply because we the reader like Conan more, because he is a bad ass, he takes no shit, and the reader sometimes wishes they could just break all the rules.  He has a rough code, but it seems malleable regarding the mood he is in.  If he makes a deal and gives his word specifically, he does not break it and sticks to the deal even when it is better for him to break it.   He is charismatic, and he does change his perspective on wanton slaughter and stealing as he goes through his years (by the time he is a King he feels responsibility and loyalty to a lot of people) but he at some point has displayed pretty much every characteristic of behavior that would get you a life sentence or a death sentence in most places at any time in history.   We excuse Conan because he is brave to the point of insanity, is built like a super Chad, pulls women easier than James Bond, slays his foes (and it turns out a good number of them are terrible people or monsters) in dramatic fashion, and gives zero F#$ks.   It is not because he lacks the worst of human natures, it is because we overlook the bad because everyone loves a winner.

Wanton murder?
Murder:
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

I don't remember a single instance where Conan just up's and kills someone for no reason. Now my memory isn't what it used to so I might be wrong.

IIRC Conan kills in battle (a lot), in duels, in self defense and even when he's been wronged and vengeance is what drives him he doesn't kill you in your sleep but allows you to defend yourself.

Killing in battle can hardly be called murder.

A duel could be unlawful IF the law decdlared it so, thus making it murder by the strict definition (not that I would agree).

And of course only a TDS Dem would call self defense murder.

But again, I might be wrong, if evidence is provided I'm ready to eat crow.

  Is it battle to raid a village on the coast with old people, women and children in it?  Belit and her crew were absolutely merciless, but they were not the only pirate ship Conan sailed on.  Conan was hired to murder the red priest, so he takes that job as an assassin...ie premeditated murder.  Conan pirates innumerable ships...it is not battle if you are attacking merchant ships, it is piracy and if you kill the people...its murder, unless you want to call it self defense because the people you were going to kill and take their stuff fought back.  He is also a leader of numerous bands of brigands and bandits, who...rob and murder...again if you attack a caravan and the people fight back after you attack, it is a reach to call it a battle and it is a bigger reach to claim self defense.

Quote from: Krazz on February 24, 2022, 04:21:41 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 03:49:26 PM
  I do not see it as between the lines.  Atali is clearly in absolute terror as he chases her after killing her brothers.  And when he catches her and hugs her and tries to give her unwanted kisses...This is described and Conan obviously sees this.  He was around 17 in this story, and maybe he has not yet learned no means no.  Is it your position that her enchantment has caused him to be a rapist?  I could actually accept that as a case, but it is ambiguous given Conan's remarks throughout the chase and killing of her brothers certainly seem to be Conan being Conan.

There's no doubt that Atali is in fear of being raped. I'm saying that Conan is no more in charge of his actions than the reader is. He's enchanted, and that enchantment is backfiring on Atali.

  and I am inclined to say that case has strong merit (in the sense she brought it upon herself with her magic).   I framed Conan's "crimes" from a perspective of modern sensibilities though, and his actions in that story would get him me too'd for sure.  I was harsh on him to call him a would be rapist, but the reality is he was almost a rapist.   

   The odd thing is, I would not have batted an eye had he just caught her and cut her head off.  But because he is about to have his way with her, against her will, it worried me that he was going to do something "wrong".  Which is odd, since wouldn't killing her be worse?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 04:16:33 PM
I don't remember a single instance where Conan just up's and kills someone for no reason. Now my memory isn't what it used to so I might be wrong.

There's a borderline case at the beginning of Queen of the Black Coast: Conan begins the story on the run from the law because he had killed I think a judge because he didn't agree with the punishment he was going to receive for a crime he didn't think should be a crime -- if memory serves, someone had insulted his honor, so he killed him.

I say borderline because the incident highlighted the difference between civilized and barbarian conceptions of honor and justice. Conan is clearly in the wrong by the former and in the right by the latter.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 03:49:26 PM
Is it your position that her enchantment has caused him to be a rapist?

That's certainly how I read it. First, it seems she's employing a magical glamour:

Quote
He gazed spell-bound. Her hair was like elfin-gold; the sun struck it so dazzlingly that he could scarcely bear to look upon it. Her eyes were likewise neither wholly blue nor wholly grey, but of shifting colors and dancing lights and clouds of colors he could not define. Her full red lips smiled, and from her slender feet to the blinding crown of her billowy hair, her ivory body was as perfect as the dream of a god. Conan's pulse hammered in his temples."

Which she uses to intentionally incite him:

Quote
"Am I not beautiful, oh man? ... Then why do you not rise and follow me? Who is the strong warrior who falls down before me?" she chanted in maddening mockery. "Lie down and die in the snow with the other fools, Conan of the black hair. You can not follow where I would lead."

He almost kills himself chasing her (which is a bit more extreme than "feeling rapey"), when she reveals her intent:

Quote
"Brothers!" cried the girl, dancing between them. "Look who follows! I have brought you a man to slay! Take his heart that we may lay it smoking on our father's board!"

He doesn't come to his sense after slaying the frost giants, because he's still mad at that point. He does come to his sense later after Ymir intervenes:

Quote
"I saw a woman, Conan answered hazily. "We met Bragi's men in the plains. I know knot how long we fought. I alone lived. I was dizzy and faint. The land lay like a dream before me. Only now do all things seem natural and familiar. The woman came and taunted me. She was beautiful as a frozen flame from hell. A strange madness fell upon me when I looked at her, so I forgot all else in the world."

And an old man confirms:

Quote
"I lay and howled like a dying dog because I could not crawl after her. She lures men from stricken fields into the wastelands to be slain by her brothers, the ice-giants, who lay men's red hearts smoking on Ymir's board."

Doesn't seem very ambiguous to me.

Quote from: Zalman on February 24, 2022, 05:33:03 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 03:49:26 PM
Is it your position that her enchantment has caused him to be a rapist?

That's certainly how I read it. First, it seems she's employing a magical glamour:

Quote
He gazed spell-bound. Her hair was like elfin-gold; the sun struck it so dazzlingly that he could scarcely bear to look upon it. Her eyes were likewise neither wholly blue nor wholly grey, but of shifting colors and dancing lights and clouds of colors he could not define. Her full red lips smiled, and from her slender feet to the blinding crown of her billowy hair, her ivory body was as perfect as the dream of a god. Conan's pulse hammered in his temples."

Which she uses to intentionally incite him:

Quote
"Am I not beautiful, oh man? ... Then why do you not rise and follow me? Who is the strong warrior who falls down before me?" she chanted in maddening mockery. "Lie down and die in the snow with the other fools, Conan of the black hair. You can not follow where I would lead."

He almost kills himself chasing her (which is a bit more extreme than "feeling rapey"), when she reveals her intent:

Quote
"Brothers!" cried the girl, dancing between them. "Look who follows! I have brought you a man to slay! Take his heart that we may lay it smoking on our father's board!"

He doesn't come to his sense after slaying the frost giants, because he's still mad at that point. He does come to his sense later after Ymir intervenes:

Quote
"I saw a woman, Conan answered hazily. "We met Bragi's men in the plains. I know knot how long we fought. I alone lived. I was dizzy and faint. The land lay like a dream before me. Only now do all things seem natural and familiar. The woman came and taunted me. She was beautiful as a frozen flame from hell. A strange madness fell upon me when I looked at her, so I forgot all else in the world."

And an old man confirms:

Quote
"I lay and howled like a dying dog because I could not crawl after her. She lures men from stricken fields into the wastelands to be slain by her brothers, the ice-giants, who lay men's red hearts smoking on Ymir's board."

Doesn't seem very ambiguous to me.

   His consistent remarks as he chases her and after slaying her brothers makes me wonder just how strong the enchantment is.  It was ambiguous to me, especially since Conan has shrugged off mind control (made his save) in other stories.   In this case he also had been bashed in the head too, so not sure on which end that drove him (unable to resist her charm, or still in a rapine mood after she is now in terror).  The old guy's testimony does not mean as much to me as to effects, just evidence she must be real.   Maybe it is not supposed to provoke thought that a 17 year old Conan could be led to think that the most beautiful woman he has ever seen deserves some mistreatment after trying to murder him,  I just never had the idea he was completely out of his mind.  I thought it was more the actions of an uncivilized barbarian ruled by his passions, letting them get the best of him in a moment of weakness (bashed in head, almost murdered, and enchanted at the beginning of this encounter to be led into a trap).   It would be contrary to his behavior in his later years....but...all the women he encounters also throw themselves at him. 

I think Jordan Peterson was talking about "celebrating horror" in the sense that people might celebrate hanging of an innocent man because he was of the wrong race or political activates celebrating that they've just murdered someone that they don't like.

Jordan Peterson also said that creating things is a wonderful thing, and although being creative won't pay the bills they should continue to create if they can. Since Call of Cthulhu is a game in a medium that's entirely based on creating, I wouldn't call the premise "Evil" because it's meant to emulate something without necessarily celebrating it.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 05:44:18 PM
   His consistent remarks as he chases her and after slaying her brothers makes me wonder just how strong the enchantment is.  It was ambiguous to me, especially since Conan has shrugged off mind control (made his save) in other stories.   In this case he also had been bashed in the head too, so not sure on which end that drove him (unable to resist her charm, or still in a rapine mood after she is now in terror).  The old guy's testimony does not mean as much to me as to effects, just evidence she must be real.

So your contention is that he is a rapist because he could have shaken off the mind-control if he'd really wanted to? And that his ability to talk proves the enchantment wasn't strong? OK!

(for the record, he speaks -- quite briefly -- only 3 times during the entire chase: once before the brothers show up, once after he slays them, and once when catches her.)

Quote from: Zalman on February 24, 2022, 05:59:19 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 05:44:18 PM
   His consistent remarks as he chases her and after slaying her brothers makes me wonder just how strong the enchantment is.  It was ambiguous to me, especially since Conan has shrugged off mind control (made his save) in other stories.   In this case he also had been bashed in the head too, so not sure on which end that drove him (unable to resist her charm, or still in a rapine mood after she is now in terror).  The old guy's testimony does not mean as much to me as to effects, just evidence she must be real.

So your contention is that he is a rapist because he could have shaken off the mind-control if he'd really wanted to? And that his ability to talk proves the enchantment wasn't strong? OK!

(for the record, he speaks -- quite briefly -- only 3 times during the entire chase: once before the brothers show up, once after he slays them, and once when catches her.)

    That seemed like a lot to me for a guy who has no control of himself.  I agree she could have done this to herself.  I can also say reading it, Conan has a case for being justified if he is not under her spell (in his barbaric code, not mine) as she did try to murder him, and if he were to kill her, that is worse than what he intends to do.  I think Conan has to commit the crime before we can call him a rapist.  He sure tries very hard though. Like I said, it was ambiguous to me. 

Is Call of Cthulhu a fundamentally evil premise for a game?
The premise is fighting against evil cultists and thwarting their plans.
How is that an evil premise, because of the mere existence of the Mythos?

Edit: Answered upthread  as a derailing of the conversation.

Cosmic horror is all subjective and aesthetic. If you enjoy the feels from postulating a meaningless universe with big squid gods sitting around at the bottom of the ocean, then great. I find it all much less scary than a good ghost or vampire story. But at this point, it's cosy, nostalgic fun to traipse around the 1920s and prod the odd shoggoth.

Cosmic horror?

Try surviving as a species for a million years where everything wants to eat you and then get back to me about Cosmic horror.

Creatures with tentacles for a head better make their shot count when they come for the King.

Quote from: Shasarak on February 25, 2022, 05:16:02 PM
Cosmic horror?

Try surviving as a species for a million years where everything wants to eat you and then get back to me about Cosmic horror.

Creatures with tentacles for a head better make their shot count when they come for the King.

Just unleash all the grievance studies profesors and graduates on Cthulhu, I bet he goes running under a rock to escape the screeching madness.