Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 24, 2022, 11:53:26 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 24, 2022, 11:26:15 AM
Yeah, that sounds like mixing oil and water. One thing or the other would have to 'give'.

  And given the presuppositions of the current chattering classes, it's almost always the stuff that isn't compatible with Lovecraft's nihilism that gives.

Yeah... nihilism is much more compatible with the elitist's preferred neo-Gnosticism* than the democratized salvation of Christianity. The "courage" to acknowledge a cold and unfeeling universe marking one as special feeds right into their elitist hearts.

Even a dualistic universe where evil is as strong as the good is preferred by them to the Christian universe found in Tolkein (or as the foundation for much of Western civilization) where evil is just a defect in the good and evil spirits are lesser created beings in rebellion against reality.

Nothing stirs up hatred from the Woke like a game setting based on a Christian cosmos.

* I could go into it in detail, but it's off-topic for this forum.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:28:06 PM
  And neither of those expose their reality anywhere near the level the forces of evil do throughout Conan stories (REH) and Mitra being good is arguable.    Now, if the Archangel Gabriel drops down tomorrow and holds a press conference, I will change this.   But as it stands,  no definitive force of good takes a direct hand in Conan, whereas is fighting some monstrosity spawned from the outer dark every 4th story.

monstrosity spawned from the outer dark isn't evil. He's just hangry.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:28:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:21:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
  I don't know that it is fundamentally evil.   I liken it to the setting in Conan.  There is most certainly the existence of evil, and evil supernatural forces that act in the material world.  There is never a truly good supernatural force that reveals itself.   This does not mean there is no supernatural good, simply that it has not revealed itself as a counter to the most definite evil.   Even in Christianity, there are not really calls for looking to direct intervention or material proof of the divine.  It calls for faith, as the time a person spends on earth is to show faith and express their faith.  After death is the concern of the Christian God, not intervening on behalf of followers while they are alive. 

   Mythos suggest there is no meaning and no point, as the Elder gods do exist, but we only know that because they have left the means to allow humans (or others) to know this.  Their existence does not completely remove the chance there are other powers, it simply proves their existence, and willingness to interact with the material world of humans.   So I guess it is more what perspective you take.

Define Good. Seriously.

Christians would argue that our God does intervene, signs, whispering in your ear and ocasionally miracles.

I would say the same holds true for Mithra in Conan.

  And neither of those expose their reality anywhere near the level the forces of evil do throughout Conan stories (REH) and Mitra being good is arguable.    Now, if the Archangel Gabriel drops down tomorrow and holds a press conference, I will change this.   But as it stands,  no definitive force of good takes a direct hand in Conan, whereas is fighting some monstrosity spawned from the outer dark every 4th story.

How is a mere mortal, no matter how mighty his muscles and will, able to defeat those monstrosities spawned from the outer dark?

The Phoenix in the Sword is but one time where direct divine intervention is seen.

Of course since the stories center on Conan he's the hero, but how can he be? From where does his flesh draw the endurance/strenght to overcome evil? Could it be that he IS the sword wielded by the forces of good?

You need to also remember that REH wrote it as low fantasy, you're not going to see the type of interventions you'd find on a high fantasy setting.

But that you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So, instead of the Archangel Gabriel you get Conan, who does the impossible time and again.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:41:33 PM
How is a mere mortal, no matter how mighty his muscles and will, able to defeat those monstrosities spawned from the outer dark?

The Phoenix in the Sword is but one time where direct divine intervention is seen.

Of course since the stories center on Conan he's the hero, but how can he be? From where does his flesh draw the endurance/strenght to overcome evil? Could it be that he IS the sword wielded by the forces of good?

You need to also remember that REH wrote it as low fantasy, you're not going to see the type of interventions you'd find on a high fantasy setting.

But that you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So, instead of the Archangel Gabriel you get Conan, who does the impossible time and again.

Because they're just things. They're not some incarnation of abstract evil.

That's the core of the Cthulhu Mythos. Some entities might be incredibly powerful to the point that even the furthest limit of human ability can't conceive of a way to defeat them, but that's because they possess great power, not because they possess transcendent or divine nature. And their lesser servitors die... well, not necessarily like anything else we know. They may die a different way, and be remarkably persistent. But they have concrete limits, even if we can't grok them.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:41:33 PM
How is a mere mortal, no matter how mighty his muscles and will, able to defeat those monstrosities spawned from the outer dark?

The Phoenix in the Sword is but one time where direct divine intervention is seen.

Of course since the stories center on Conan he's the hero, but how can he be? From where does his flesh draw the endurance/strenght to overcome evil? Could it be that he IS the sword wielded by the forces of good?

You need to also remember that REH wrote it as low fantasy, you're not going to see the type of interventions you'd find on a high fantasy setting.

But that you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So, instead of the Archangel Gabriel you get Conan, who does the impossible time and again.

In the case of Conan, we know that no fewer than two gods are involved: Crom, who gave him his strength at birth, and Mitra, who used him at least the once. (And let's please ignore The Return of Conan.)

I count Mitra as good, and I think he's clearly presented that way. IIRC, a passage in Black Colossus implies that he used to be a lot more prominent but humanity turned to other gods, the suggestion being that humanity had abandoned the good gods, rather than vice versa.

Crom is more complicated. His MO is that he gives his worshipers strength and charges them to go forth and be badasses. In D&D terms, he'd be neutral, but his is the sort of ethics you see in the Volsunga saga.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:41:33 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:28:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:21:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
  I don't know that it is fundamentally evil.   I liken it to the setting in Conan.  There is most certainly the existence of evil, and evil supernatural forces that act in the material world.  There is never a truly good supernatural force that reveals itself.   This does not mean there is no supernatural good, simply that it has not revealed itself as a counter to the most definite evil.   Even in Christianity, there are not really calls for looking to direct intervention or material proof of the divine.  It calls for faith, as the time a person spends on earth is to show faith and express their faith.  After death is the concern of the Christian God, not intervening on behalf of followers while they are alive. 

   Mythos suggest there is no meaning and no point, as the Elder gods do exist, but we only know that because they have left the means to allow humans (or others) to know this.  Their existence does not completely remove the chance there are other powers, it simply proves their existence, and willingness to interact with the material world of humans.   So I guess it is more what perspective you take.

Define Good. Seriously.

Christians would argue that our God does intervene, signs, whispering in your ear and ocasionally miracles.

I would say the same holds true for Mithra in Conan.

  And neither of those expose their reality anywhere near the level the forces of evil do throughout Conan stories (REH) and Mitra being good is arguable.    Now, if the Archangel Gabriel drops down tomorrow and holds a press conference, I will change this.   But as it stands,  no definitive force of good takes a direct hand in Conan, whereas is fighting some monstrosity spawned from the outer dark every 4th story.

How is a mere mortal, no matter how mighty his muscles and will, able to defeat those monstrosities spawned from the outer dark?

The Phoenix in the Sword is but one time where direct divine intervention is seen.

Of course since the stories center on Conan he's the hero, but how can he be? From where does his flesh draw the endurance/strenght to overcome evil? Could it be that he IS the sword wielded by the forces of good?

You need to also remember that REH wrote it as low fantasy, you're not going to see the type of interventions you'd find on a high fantasy setting.

But that you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So, instead of the Archangel Gabriel you get Conan, who does the impossible time and again.

  Phoenix on the Sword was a ghost who scribed a blessed sigil, not exactly Divine intervention, but again also not direct or explicit in that intervention. Still left it up to Conan to do the work.  No REH did not write it as low fantasy, there are numerous examples of world shaking magic being used,  and explicit magic.  The theme was a savage man trying to make sense of a civilized world and relying on his own mettle and traits above outside forces (these being magic and evil gods).  He gets a nudge a few times, and does have allies connected to the supernatural (one at least of which is himself a pretty wretched sorceror) but the theme was always of the Barbarian is the natural state of man, civilization is an illusion. 

  I also said the good forces do not reveal themselves explicitly, not that they do not exist.  So you are arguing a point I have not made if you are suggesting I said the good does not exist.  Conan does the impossible because of luck, and plot armor (because the first story published is Phoenix on the Sword where he is already a king).

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 24, 2022, 01:04:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:41:33 PM
How is a mere mortal, no matter how mighty his muscles and will, able to defeat those monstrosities spawned from the outer dark?

The Phoenix in the Sword is but one time where direct divine intervention is seen.

Of course since the stories center on Conan he's the hero, but how can he be? From where does his flesh draw the endurance/strenght to overcome evil? Could it be that he IS the sword wielded by the forces of good?

You need to also remember that REH wrote it as low fantasy, you're not going to see the type of interventions you'd find on a high fantasy setting.

But that you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So, instead of the Archangel Gabriel you get Conan, who does the impossible time and again.

In the case of Conan, we know that no fewer than two gods are involved: Crom, who gave him his strength at birth, and Mitra, who used him at least the once. (And let's please ignore The Return of Conan.)

I count Mitra as good, and I think he's clearly presented that way. IIRC, a passage in Black Colossus implies that he used to be a lot more prominent but humanity turned to other gods, the suggestion being that humanity had abandoned the good gods, rather than vice versa.

Crom is more complicated. His MO is that he gives his worshipers strength and charges them to go forth and be badasses. In D&D terms, he'd be neutral, but his is the sort of ethics you see in the Volsunga saga.

  From Conan's perception though, he does not know if Mitra is good, only that he benefits him.  Crom is never actually shown to exist, but Conan believes he does.  I can accept that Mitra can be considered good, but the perspective of the stories is any action from supernatural good is not clearly defined as good, and never anywhere near as explicit or clear compared to the existence of definite supernatural evil.

  Which in these events, taken as a whole, Conan's world is dark grey.  The instances of bright good compared to blackest evil demonstrated throughout are not even close.  Conan himself is a very grey character.  He tries to rape a woman.  He slaughters innocent people as a bandit and a pirate.  He sells all sorts of people into slavery as a pirate.  He constantly double crosses bandit leaders or pirate captains who took him in and trusted him. 

     I can wiggle on if pure good is represented (Mitra is a reach, but his propaganda paints him as a great good) explicitly, but many of the people in the world have certainly seen what could be called darkest evil, and very, very, very, very few have seen bright good.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 01:27:50 PM
  He tries to rape a woman.

If you're talking about "The Frost Giant's Daughter," he wasn't in his right mind. After she disappears and her enchantment fades, he initially doesn't believe any of it happened.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 01:27:50 PM
  Which in these events, taken as a whole, Conan's world is dark grey.  The instances of bright good compared to blackest evil demonstrated throughout are not even close.  Conan himself is a very grey character.  He tries to rape a woman.  He slaughters innocent people as a bandit and a pirate.  He sells all sorts of people into slavery as a pirate.  He constantly double crosses bandit leaders or pirate captains who took him in and trusted him. 

     I can wiggle on if pure good is represented (Mitra is a reach, but his propaganda paints him as a great good) explicitly, but many of the people in the world have certainly seen what could be called darkest evil, and very, very, very, very few have seen bright good.

I think a problem with characterizing many worlds as "gray" is it implies there is objective black and white, which isn't really the case in those worlds. Having true good or true good requires an omniscient point of view, because human assessments of good and evil are fallible. Instead, I think a better description of Conan's world is that it's a world seen solely through a human lens. Mitra may or may not be good, but there's no narrator telling us it is so. There may be in-setting perspectives and opinions, but ultimately it's up to each character to figure that out, and up to the reader to decide how to interpret that.

Quote from: Pat on February 24, 2022, 01:42:18 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 01:27:50 PM
  Which in these events, taken as a whole, Conan's world is dark grey.  The instances of bright good compared to blackest evil demonstrated throughout are not even close.  Conan himself is a very grey character.  He tries to rape a woman.  He slaughters innocent people as a bandit and a pirate.  He sells all sorts of people into slavery as a pirate.  He constantly double crosses bandit leaders or pirate captains who took him in and trusted him. 

     I can wiggle on if pure good is represented (Mitra is a reach, but his propaganda paints him as a great good) explicitly, but many of the people in the world have certainly seen what could be called darkest evil, and very, very, very, very few have seen bright good.

I think a problem with characterizing many worlds as "gray" is it implies there is objective black and white, which isn't really the case in those worlds. Having true good or true good requires an omniscient point of view, because human assessments of good and evil are fallible. Instead, I think a better description of Conan's world is that it's a world seen solely through a human lens. Mitra may or may not be good, but there's no narrator telling us it is so. There may be in-setting perspectives and opinions, but ultimately it's up to each character to figure that out, and up to the reader to decide how to interpret that.

  I do not disagree, but I do think objective black is demonstrated a few times.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 24, 2022, 01:39:51 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 01:27:50 PM
  He tries to rape a woman.

If you're talking about "The Frost Giant's Daughter," he wasn't in his right mind. After she disappears and her enchantment fades, he initially doesn't believe any of it happened.

I think he was, I think he wanted to punish her for trying to murder him.  He collapsed after and had a hard knock on the head, so if we choose to excuse his rape due to TBI I can go along with it.  He never forces himself on a woman at any other time, but he also knew she was not in fact a human woman.  We can also take on the moral question of whether her attempted murder has the reciprocity of an assault (instead of him just killing her), but we do feel he is justified to kill her at that point had he chosen to do so.  Again,  pretty gray.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 01:17:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:41:33 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:28:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:21:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
  I don't know that it is fundamentally evil.   I liken it to the setting in Conan.  There is most certainly the existence of evil, and evil supernatural forces that act in the material world.  There is never a truly good supernatural force that reveals itself.   This does not mean there is no supernatural good, simply that it has not revealed itself as a counter to the most definite evil.   Even in Christianity, there are not really calls for looking to direct intervention or material proof of the divine.  It calls for faith, as the time a person spends on earth is to show faith and express their faith.  After death is the concern of the Christian God, not intervening on behalf of followers while they are alive. 

   Mythos suggest there is no meaning and no point, as the Elder gods do exist, but we only know that because they have left the means to allow humans (or others) to know this.  Their existence does not completely remove the chance there are other powers, it simply proves their existence, and willingness to interact with the material world of humans.   So I guess it is more what perspective you take.

Define Good. Seriously.

Christians would argue that our God does intervene, signs, whispering in your ear and ocasionally miracles.

I would say the same holds true for Mithra in Conan.

  And neither of those expose their reality anywhere near the level the forces of evil do throughout Conan stories (REH) and Mitra being good is arguable.    Now, if the Archangel Gabriel drops down tomorrow and holds a press conference, I will change this.   But as it stands,  no definitive force of good takes a direct hand in Conan, whereas is fighting some monstrosity spawned from the outer dark every 4th story.

How is a mere mortal, no matter how mighty his muscles and will, able to defeat those monstrosities spawned from the outer dark?

The Phoenix in the Sword is but one time where direct divine intervention is seen.

Of course since the stories center on Conan he's the hero, but how can he be? From where does his flesh draw the endurance/strenght to overcome evil? Could it be that he IS the sword wielded by the forces of good?

You need to also remember that REH wrote it as low fantasy, you're not going to see the type of interventions you'd find on a high fantasy setting.

But that you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So, instead of the Archangel Gabriel you get Conan, who does the impossible time and again.

  Phoenix on the Sword was a ghost who scribed a blessed sigil, not exactly Divine intervention, but again also not direct or explicit in that intervention. Still left it up to Conan to do the work.  No REH did not write it as low fantasy, there are numerous examples of world shaking magic being used,  and explicit magic.  The theme was a savage man trying to make sense of a civilized world and relying on his own mettle and traits above outside forces (these being magic and evil gods).  He gets a nudge a few times, and does have allies connected to the supernatural (one at least of which is himself a pretty wretched sorceror) but the theme was always of the Barbarian is the natural state of man, civilization is an illusion. 

  I also said the good forces do not reveal themselves explicitly, not that they do not exist.  So you are arguing a point I have not made if you are suggesting I said the good does not exist.  Conan does the impossible because of luck, and plot armor (because the first story published is Phoenix on the Sword where he is already a king).

Aye, the ghost of Epimetreus the Sage long dead priest of who?

A sigil blessed by who?

Who fought with Set and banished him?

As for plot armor well DUH! But were talking In-World not IRL. And In-World Conan is an unwitting and often unwilling pawn on the perpetual battle of Mitra against Set and the forces of darkness.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 01:27:50 PM
He tries to rape a woman.

You mean the witch that enchanted him to make him follow her to his death? I don't remember him TRYING to rape her, but wanting to. And all of this while under her spell, which was meant to make men follow her to their deaths by making them desire her.

But sure, Conan is the bad guy somehow.

Quote from: Pat on February 24, 2022, 01:42:18 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 01:27:50 PM
  Which in these events, taken as a whole, Conan's world is dark grey.  The instances of bright good compared to blackest evil demonstrated throughout are not even close.  Conan himself is a very grey character.  He tries to rape a woman.  He slaughters innocent people as a bandit and a pirate.  He sells all sorts of people into slavery as a pirate.  He constantly double crosses bandit leaders or pirate captains who took him in and trusted him. 

     I can wiggle on if pure good is represented (Mitra is a reach, but his propaganda paints him as a great good) explicitly, but many of the people in the world have certainly seen what could be called darkest evil, and very, very, very, very few have seen bright good.

I think a problem with characterizing many worlds as "gray" is it implies there is objective black and white, which isn't really the case in those worlds. Having true good or true good requires an omniscient point of view, because human assessments of good and evil are fallible. Instead, I think a better description of Conan's world is that it's a world seen solely through a human lens. Mitra may or may not be good, but there's no narrator telling us it is so. There may be in-setting perspectives and opinions, but ultimately it's up to each character to figure that out, and up to the reader to decide how to interpret that.

"When the world was young and men were weak, and the fiends of the night walked free,
I strove with Set by fire and steel and the juice of the upas-tree;
Now that I sleep in the mount's black heart, and the ages take their toll,
Forget ye him who fought with the Snake to save the human soul?"

Epimetreus priest of ? You guessed it, Mitra.