Quote from: Shasarak on February 24, 2022, 02:27:04 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 24, 2022, 01:58:30 AM
I respect Peterson, but he still pines for a return to an understanding of the world and meaning that's not coming back. Not because it's $CURRENT_YEAR, but because it isn't true and didn't work. The universe really isn't about us, and really isn't entirely comprehensible to us. Like the 19th century rationalists, Peterson seems to want a totally logical system resting atop one free miracle. But it's closer to the truth to say everything is a miracle. It's just that some of those miracles are more amenable to rational approaches than others.

If the universe was not all about us then can you explain why we humans are literally in the middle of the observable universe?

Its no coincidence.

Nope, you got me on that one. I've seen the error of my ways.

Clearly we're the most important beings in existence. How else can you explain the facts that:

* Only we see out of our own eyeballs?
* Only we think with our brains?
* Only we inhabit our bodies?
* That the above are all logically necessary statements?

Please forgive my earlier ignorance.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 24, 2022, 07:54:05 AM
If this segues into another 'RPGs lead people into satanism' line of bullshit, someone is getting punched in the throat.

No, but the OSR does lead people to Satanis.

I'm not going to say it's fundamentally evil, but the Lovecraftian conviction of the irrationality and Godlessness of the universe are why I've always been somewhat cool to Yog-Sothery as more than an occasional spice to a game, and I am thoroughly sick of the general hobby's need to "Lovecraftize" everything. I think the breaking point for me was a thread on TBP a couple years back where they tried to do "Lovecraftian Tolkien" by shoehorning Middle-Earth into a Mythos cosmology.

Or as I've often said, "I enjoy and admire the imaginative furniture, but I deplore the intellectual architecture of Lovecraft's work."

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 24, 2022, 10:19:45 AM

Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2022, 02:37:51 AM
>>Anthroponormativity is the only escape both for the characters in the game, and for the participants controlling them<<

Yes. The Mythos universe is meaningless, which was a horrific thought within a Christian context, and Peterson seems to find it horrific still - he does have a charmingly 1920s view of existence, an agnostic wrestling with the terrors of scientific discovery. But humans are as much a part of the universe as the Great Old Ones or the Great Race of Yith, who don't seem to suffer too much from cosmic ennui. The universe can't make humanity not care about ourselves. Existence is a struggle for existence; humans are a young species and relatively weak compared to many outsider species, but hardly helpless.

I like it. All the other independent races had to start somewhere, didn't they? It's just that the process of fighting and winning a "war of independence"--which might be an endless war--seems to involve a transvaluation of all values such that the men of the future might possess a necessary ethic of that future which pre-independence humans would find cold, ruthless, and reprehensible. What becomes of agape in such a future?

QuoteI deal with/play with these concepts a lot in my Primeval Thule campaign, where sundry Great Old Ones tend to be the main BBEGs. I mix a lot of science and pseudoscience in there with a Zoroastrian* type set up. IMC the beliefs of the terrestrial races create a kind of combined psychic shield against the alien menaces of the Outer Dark. Just as worship appears to give power to Cthulu or Hastur, the beliefs of the Serpentmen 'created' their god Set (worshipped as Set by the humans), the beliefs of the humans et al 'create' Mitra Azura et al; these psychic entities battle the parasitic infestations of the Extraterrene. Mortals see the Northern Lights as a manifestation or reflection of this great battle, conceived in religious terms as a struggle between the human gods & the demons of the Outer Dark for mastery of the Earth. 

*TL;DR: Nietzsche FTW 

A word for your concept is egregore

That's cool, thanks.

Yes, from a Mythos perspective humans are just another minor Independent Race. The challenge is to avoid both extinction, and becoming just another minor Servitor race. 
It seems like an open question whether this necessitates humans becoming "cold, ruthless, and reprehensible", but my provisional answer is that an egregore with agape is likely better than one without, even instrumentally.

Edit: transvaluation of all values sounds like the kind of thing Nyarlathotep suggests when he wants to lead us down the garden path to ruin...

Quote from: Shasarak on February 24, 2022, 05:06:04 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 02:43:31 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 24, 2022, 02:27:04 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 24, 2022, 01:58:30 AM
I respect Peterson, but he still pines for a return to an understanding of the world and meaning that's not coming back. Not because it's $CURRENT_YEAR, but because it isn't true and didn't work. The universe really isn't about us, and really isn't entirely comprehensible to us. Like the 19th century rationalists, Peterson seems to want a totally logical system resting atop one free miracle. But it's closer to the truth to say everything is a miracle. It's just that some of those miracles are more amenable to rational approaches than others.

If the universe was not all about us then can you explain why we humans are literally in the middle of the observable universe?

Its no coincidence.

As both a Christian and a logical man yes I can:

Wherever we found ourselves at would be the center of the observable universe, it's a POV and perspective thing. Thatis why we call it "the center of the observable universe".

Lets postulate an inteligent alien species in proxima centaury 4.246 light years away from us. For them the edge of the buble is exactly 4.246 light years closer to us in one direction and 4.246 light years farther in the opposite direction.

And this in no way negates God.

Bringing it back to gaming CoC is just a fucking game, nothing else. It's not going to bring about the end of civilization.

The existance of any other intelligent species just proves our superiority as they are 4.246 light years away from the center of the observable universe and therefore that much less important.

LOL, I forgot who I was talking wit.

Well played good sir.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 24, 2022, 09:49:33 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 02:45:34 AM

Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2022, 02:37:51 AM
>>Anthroponormativity is the only escape both for the characters in the game, and for the participants controlling them<<

Yes. The Mythos universe is meaningless, which was a horrific thought within a Christian context, and Peterson seems to find it horrific still - he does have a charmingly 1920s view of existence, an agnostic wrestling with the terrors of scientific discovery. But humans are as much a part of the universe as the Great Old Ones or the Great Race of Yith, who don't seem to suffer too much from cosmic ennui. The universe can't make humanity not care about ourselves. Existence is a struggle for existence; humans are a young species and relatively weak compared to many outsider species, but hardly helpless.

I deal with/play with these concepts a lot in my Primeval Thule campaign, where sundry Great Old Ones tend to be the main BBEGs. I mix a lot of science and pseudoscience in there with a Zoroastrian* type set up. IMC the beliefs of the terrestrial races create a kind of combined psychic shield against the alien menaces of the Outer Dark. Just as worship appears give power to Cthulu or Hastur, the beliefs of the Serpentmen 'created' their god Set (worshipped as Set by the humans), the beliefs of the humans et al 'create' Mitra Azura et al; these psychic entities battle the parasitic infestations of the Extraterrene. Mortals see the Northern Lights as a manifestation or reflection of this great battle, conceived in religious terms as a struggle between the human gods & the demons of the Outer Dark for mastery of the Earth. 

*TL;DR: Nietzsche FTW 

Well IRL belief in God does shield you from falling into the SJW cult.

Not so much.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/december/southern-baptist-critical-race-theory-debate-crt-seminary-s.html

I would postulate that those in power in every church aren't believers but politicians.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 02:43:31 AM
Bringing it back to gaming CoC is just a fucking game, nothing else. It's not going to bring about the end of civilization.

Abolutely...

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 24, 2022, 10:56:05 AM
I'm not going to say it's fundamentally evil, but the Lovecraftian conviction of the irrationality and Godlessness of the universe are why I've always been somewhat cool to Yog-Sothery as more than an occasional spice to a game, and I am thoroughly sick of the general hobby's need to "Lovecraftize" everything. I think the breaking point for me was a thread on TBP a couple years back where they tried to do "Lovecraftian Tolkien" by shoehorning Middle-Earth into a Mythos cosmology.

Yeah, that sounds like mixing oil and water. One thing or the other would have to 'give'.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 24, 2022, 11:26:15 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 24, 2022, 10:56:05 AM
I'm not going to say it's fundamentally evil, but the Lovecraftian conviction of the irrationality and Godlessness of the universe are why I've always been somewhat cool to Yog-Sothery as more than an occasional spice to a game, and I am thoroughly sick of the general hobby's need to "Lovecraftize" everything. I think the breaking point for me was a thread on TBP a couple years back where they tried to do "Lovecraftian Tolkien" by shoehorning Middle-Earth into a Mythos cosmology.

Yeah, that sounds like mixing oil and water. One thing or the other would have to 'give'.

I've not seen the thread in question, but you can make anything superficially Lovecraftian by throwing in a bunch of tentacles and having characters become aureately unhinged.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 24, 2022, 11:26:15 AM
Yeah, that sounds like mixing oil and water. One thing or the other would have to 'give'.

  And given the presuppositions of the current chattering classes, it's almost always the stuff that isn't compatible with Lovecraft's nihilism that gives.

  I don't know that it is fundamentally evil.   I liken it to the setting in Conan.  There is most certainly the existence of evil, and evil supernatural forces that act in the material world.  There is never a truly good supernatural force that reveals itself.   This does not mean there is no supernatural good, simply that it has not revealed itself as a counter to the most definite evil.   Even in Christianity, there are not really calls for looking to direct intervention or material proof of the divine.  It calls for faith, as the time a person spends on earth is to show faith and express their faith.  After death is the concern of the Christian God, not intervening on behalf of followers while they are alive. 

   Mythos suggest there is no meaning and no point, as the Elder gods do exist, but we only know that because they have left the means to allow humans (or others) to know this.  Their existence does not completely remove the chance there are other powers, it simply proves their existence, and willingness to interact with the material world of humans.   So I guess it is more what perspective you take.   

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
There is never a truly good supernatural force that reveals itself.

Mitra, in Black Colossus.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 24, 2022, 12:03:40 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
There is never a truly good supernatural force that reveals itself.

Mitra, in Black Colossus.

  Mitra is not truly good.  Shows some loyalty to followers with signs and so forth.  Neutral sure, but good?  No.  I think Mitra seems good because all the other choices involve human sacrifice and demons.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
  I don't know that it is fundamentally evil.   I liken it to the setting in Conan.  There is most certainly the existence of evil, and evil supernatural forces that act in the material world.  There is never a truly good supernatural force that reveals itself.   This does not mean there is no supernatural good, simply that it has not revealed itself as a counter to the most definite evil.   Even in Christianity, there are not really calls for looking to direct intervention or material proof of the divine.  It calls for faith, as the time a person spends on earth is to show faith and express their faith.  After death is the concern of the Christian God, not intervening on behalf of followers while they are alive. 

   Mythos suggest there is no meaning and no point, as the Elder gods do exist, but we only know that because they have left the means to allow humans (or others) to know this.  Their existence does not completely remove the chance there are other powers, it simply proves their existence, and willingness to interact with the material world of humans.   So I guess it is more what perspective you take.

Define Good. Seriously.

Christians would argue that our God does intervene, signs, whispering in your ear and ocasionally miracles.

I would say the same holds true for Mithra in Conan.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 12:21:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 24, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
  I don't know that it is fundamentally evil.   I liken it to the setting in Conan.  There is most certainly the existence of evil, and evil supernatural forces that act in the material world.  There is never a truly good supernatural force that reveals itself.   This does not mean there is no supernatural good, simply that it has not revealed itself as a counter to the most definite evil.   Even in Christianity, there are not really calls for looking to direct intervention or material proof of the divine.  It calls for faith, as the time a person spends on earth is to show faith and express their faith.  After death is the concern of the Christian God, not intervening on behalf of followers while they are alive. 

   Mythos suggest there is no meaning and no point, as the Elder gods do exist, but we only know that because they have left the means to allow humans (or others) to know this.  Their existence does not completely remove the chance there are other powers, it simply proves their existence, and willingness to interact with the material world of humans.   So I guess it is more what perspective you take.

Define Good. Seriously.

Christians would argue that our God does intervene, signs, whispering in your ear and ocasionally miracles.

I would say the same holds true for Mithra in Conan.

  And neither of those expose their reality anywhere near the level the forces of evil do throughout Conan stories (REH) and Mitra being good is arguable.    Now, if the Archangel Gabriel drops down tomorrow and holds a press conference, I will change this.   But as it stands,  no definitive force of good takes a direct hand in Conan, whereas is fighting some monstrosity spawned from the outer dark every 4th story.