The following quote by Jordan Peterson on the nature of evil and evil acts struck me queer:

QuoteJordan Peterson:
And you have to think about it from an aesthetic perspective, in a sense, because it's a celebration of horror, and it's a conscious attempt to violate the conditions that make life itself tolerable, and it's aimed at dehumanization, destruction of the ideal and, at an even deeper level, revenge against the conditions of existence itself. I'm trying to understand the developmental pathway that leads to acts like that.

This sounds a lot like what the Cthulhu Mythos are, and what a game revolving around them is doing, and what Lovecraftian weird fiction in general is doing. Their premise is that Finite human confrontation with the Infinite leads to a realization of the prosaicness, chaos, amorality, and hostility of Being. The opposite of these things might be wonder, order, morality, and love, but these latter all seem to be excluded from any realistic human view of the world in the Mythos' own terms.

One might object that the Mythos, if nothing else is granted, still contain wonder (and, for the Dreamlands this might hold, as a special case), but, the wonder of the Mythos proper is always uneasily tinged with horror, which might make it a parallel to the way woe and joy coexist in the artistic category of the Sublime. It might be argued that any hypothetical wonder in the human perspective in the Mythos is always ultimately corrupted by the underlying horror, such that the corrupted but otherwise functional human personality ceases to find wonder in anything, but, rather, attends, like any wizard worth his salts, to problems of the pleasures of power.

Setting that aside, it looks as though the Mythos consumed as entertainment embodies a kind of "recreational epistemological evil" on an infinite scale. Prima facie, it glorifies and celebrates horror, engaging its consumers and participants in conscious attempts to construct mental maps of the violation of the conditions that make life tolerable while dehumanizing its characters and destroying all human ideals. Given Lovecraft's "functional dysfunctionality," the possibility arises that this scientific atheist was mythologically mapping out something like his "revenge against the conditions of existence itself."

Let's say we exonerate Lovecraft of any conscious such intentionality. If he did enact such desires in his work, they were unconscious, but no less potent for that. That many (if not yet multitudes of) people respond avidly to this color out of Lovecraft's psychic space indicates that he drilled down deep into what Peterson might call the archetypal substrate of the human imagination. We have yet to realize the full manifestation and power of such a psychic contact.

The wider appreciation the Mythos gains, the more it touches a human desire for human meaning beyond just the recreational epistemological evil, which I submit are Comedy and Tragedy. Both feel like a kind of betrayal of the Mythos' intent, even while in popular imagination they snuggle comfortably into the same boat. Do bobble-heads and plush toys insult Cthulhu as much as the "woke" insinuation increasingly surfacing in games like Call of Cthulhu? The former is like an innocent mouse traipsing on the head of a hungry python. The latter decorates the darkness with noble sentiment ("democracy," "freedom," "fairness," etc.). Both try to "tame" the Mythos by wrestling it back into a frame of human meaningfulness.

As others have observed, these gaming taming efforts water down the Mythos. They're not "hard core" no matter how fun or dynamically intricate they may be. To become a person deeply colored by the Mythos is to confront the experience of cosmic fear. To turn that into a game is to dance on the knife's edge of what has been called the "ecstasy of horror". Too far to one side and one encounters meaningless cosmic dread; too far to the other and one encounters the banal. It's there, dancing to the tunes of the celestial flutes, that the meaning of the Mythos is located.

If we want to avoid the Mythos becoming nothing but recreational epistemological evil, what this begs is a way to expand that meaning in a way that justifies mankind's existence. This would mean living in such a way that the universe is better for one's having lived, even if one lives out a tragedy, comedy, or tragi-comedy. Anthroponormativity is the only escape both for the characters in the game, and for the participants controlling them. In other words, out of the struggle for meaning, the thoughtful play tends to proceed as if the category of the Sublime were attainable.

The Finite confronting the Infinite is to realize one's profound vulnerability. This is seen most compellingly and dauntingly in the Crucifixion of Christ, the idea of the Infinite assuming that which it lacks—finitude—in order to confront itself on behalf of the vulnerable, in a Sublime manner. This is why we can apprise that the corrupted wizard has made a spiritual error, as has Cthulhu himself, for both of them remain vulnerable in the face of the Infinite that dwarfs them immeasurably.

Recognizing this plants something unspeakable at the heart of the Mythos, and, so, defines the Mythos in terms of a psychological substrate of humanity that recaptures the wonder from the jaws of the horror. Even in the face of the unendingness of the madness of the Mythos, a "higher level" persists—in the reality of the participants in the real world of which the Lovecraftian Secondary World (Tolkien) is a warped shadow—accessible to the characters therein only through an element of faith which elevates Tragedy to Sublimity.

In the end, the spell is broken. The residue of plush Elder Things and tragic color remains, alongside fond memories of a foolish foray into a fun and fruitful preternatural phantasy.

I respect Peterson, but he still pines for a return to an understanding of the world and meaning that's not coming back. Not because it's $CURRENT_YEAR, but because it isn't true and didn't work. The universe really isn't about us, and really isn't entirely comprehensible to us. Like the 19th century rationalists, Peterson seems to want a totally logical system resting atop one free miracle. But it's closer to the truth to say everything is a miracle. It's just that some of those miracles are more amenable to rational approaches than others.

---

The central conceits of the Cthulhu Mythos are (a) the universe does not care about us, and (b) the universe is not actually orderly and rational, at least not in any way we can understand. Or to put these two points together, the universe is not about us. It will not go out of its way to protect us or give us happy endings just because we want or need them.

This was a disturbing idea in Lovecraft's day, but less so these days. Hence the cute Cthulhu plushies: the fundamental conceit of cosmic indifference is no longer horrifying to us.

Is that indifference a form of evil? Certainly that's how Lovecraft experienced it, and how his audience experienced it at the time. And it's how the genre presents it for dramatic purposes. But I think it mostly reflects the transitional state we're in: we've lost the old certainties, the old worldviews in which God or the Universe are here for our benefit, but we haven't yet managed to fully deal with that. Whether it's celebrating or acknowledging that fact probably depends on who/what/how.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 24, 2022, 01:58:30 AM
I respect Peterson, but he still pines for a return to an understanding of the world and meaning that's not coming back. Not because it's $CURRENT_YEAR, but because it isn't true and didn't work. The universe really isn't about us, and really isn't entirely comprehensible to us. Like the 19th century rationalists, Peterson seems to want a totally logical system resting atop one free miracle. But it's closer to the truth to say everything is a miracle. It's just that some of those miracles are more amenable to rational approaches than others.

If the universe was not all about us then can you explain why we humans are literally in the middle of the observable universe?

Its no coincidence.

>>Anthroponormativity is the only escape both for the characters in the game, and for the participants controlling them<<

Yes. The Mythos universe is meaningless, which was a horrific thought within a Christian context, and Peterson seems to find it horrific still - he does have a charmingly 1920s view of existence, an agnostic wrestling with the terrors of scientific discovery. But humans are as much a part of the universe as the Great Old Ones or the Great Race of Yith, who don't seem to suffer too much from cosmic ennui. The universe can't make humanity not care about ourselves. Existence is a struggle for existence; humans are a young species and relatively weak compared to many outsider species, but hardly helpless.

I deal with/play with these concepts a lot in my Primeval Thule campaign, where sundry Great Old Ones tend to be the main BBEGs. I mix a lot of science and pseudoscience in there with a Zoroastrian* type set up. IMC the beliefs of the terrestrial races create a kind of combined psychic shield against the alien menaces of the Outer Dark. Just as worship appears to give power to Cthulu or Hastur, the beliefs of the Serpentmen 'created' their god Set (worshipped as Set by the humans), the beliefs of the humans et al 'create' Mitra Azura et al; these psychic entities battle the parasitic infestations of the Extraterrene. Mortals see the Northern Lights as a manifestation or reflection of this great battle, conceived in religious terms as a struggle between the human gods & the demons of the Outer Dark for mastery of the Earth. 

*TL;DR: Nietzsche FTW 

Quote from: Shasarak on February 24, 2022, 02:27:04 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 24, 2022, 01:58:30 AM
I respect Peterson, but he still pines for a return to an understanding of the world and meaning that's not coming back. Not because it's $CURRENT_YEAR, but because it isn't true and didn't work. The universe really isn't about us, and really isn't entirely comprehensible to us. Like the 19th century rationalists, Peterson seems to want a totally logical system resting atop one free miracle. But it's closer to the truth to say everything is a miracle. It's just that some of those miracles are more amenable to rational approaches than others.

If the universe was not all about us then can you explain why we humans are literally in the middle of the observable universe?

Its no coincidence.

As both a Christian and a logical man yes I can:

Wherever we found ourselves at would be the center of the observable universe, it's a POV and perspective thing. Thatis why we call it "the center of the observable universe".

Lets postulate an inteligent alien species in proxima centaury 4.246 light years away from us. For them the edge of the buble is exactly 4.246 light years closer to us in one direction and 4.246 light years farther in the opposite direction.

And this in no way negates God.

Bringing it back to gaming CoC is just a fucking game, nothing else. It's not going to bring about the end of civilization.

Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2022, 02:37:51 AM
>>Anthroponormativity is the only escape both for the characters in the game, and for the participants controlling them<<

Yes. The Mythos universe is meaningless, which was a horrific thought within a Christian context, and Peterson seems to find it horrific still - he does have a charmingly 1920s view of existence, an agnostic wrestling with the terrors of scientific discovery. But humans are as much a part of the universe as the Great Old Ones or the Great Race of Yith, who don't seem to suffer too much from cosmic ennui. The universe can't make humanity not care about ourselves. Existence is a struggle for existence; humans are a young species and relatively weak compared to many outsider species, but hardly helpless.

I deal with/play with these concepts a lot in my Primeval Thule campaign, where sundry Great Old Ones tend to be the main BBEGs. I mix a lot of science and pseudoscience in there with a Zoroastrian* type set up. IMC the beliefs of the terrestrial races create a kind of combined psychic shield against the alien menaces of the Outer Dark. Just as worship appears give power to Cthulu or Hastur, the beliefs of the Serpentmen 'created' their god Set (worshipped as Set by the humans), the beliefs of the humans et al 'create' Mitra Azura et al; these psychic entities battle the parasitic infestations of the Extraterrene. Mortals see the Northern Lights as a manifestation or reflection of this great battle, conceived in religious terms as a struggle between the human gods & the demons of the Outer Dark for mastery of the Earth. 

*TL;DR: Nietzsche FTW 

Well IRL belief in God does shield you from falling into the SJW cult.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 02:45:34 AM
Well IRL belief in God does shield you from falling into the SJW cult.

Anthropocentrism is a modernist heresy in pretty much every religion that has given in to it. From the standpoint of pretty much any traditional religion out there, the universe isn't about us, it's about God or the gods, who care about us for their own reasons.

I don't see the Mythos in Peterson's quote, because Peterson is writing from a human perspective. The Mythos is simply amoral. It's something other, something beyond. The terror it instills is not the fear of a corruption of the human form or human nature, as in most traditional horrors, from vampires or werewolves to devils. Instead, it's the fear of insignificance, of irrelevance.

But that fear itself is the human reaction. So is characterizing it as dehumanizing, which makes no sense outside the human framework. So is the idea that it's a celebration of anything, or a corruption, or a violation. Because those are meaningless from the Mythos' perspective; they only have meaning from the context of humans reacting to it. It's not about revenge, any more than a human shoe rushing down toward an ant embodies revenge.

Humans may react and interpret the Mythos in that way, but that's because humans try to impose meaning on everything. But that meaning is the human lens, and means nothing from the perspective of anything outside the small scope of human experience.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 02:43:31 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 24, 2022, 02:27:04 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 24, 2022, 01:58:30 AM
I respect Peterson, but he still pines for a return to an understanding of the world and meaning that's not coming back. Not because it's $CURRENT_YEAR, but because it isn't true and didn't work. The universe really isn't about us, and really isn't entirely comprehensible to us. Like the 19th century rationalists, Peterson seems to want a totally logical system resting atop one free miracle. But it's closer to the truth to say everything is a miracle. It's just that some of those miracles are more amenable to rational approaches than others.

If the universe was not all about us then can you explain why we humans are literally in the middle of the observable universe?

Its no coincidence.

As both a Christian and a logical man yes I can:

Wherever we found ourselves at would be the center of the observable universe, it's a POV and perspective thing. Thatis why we call it "the center of the observable universe".

Lets postulate an inteligent alien species in proxima centaury 4.246 light years away from us. For them the edge of the buble is exactly 4.246 light years closer to us in one direction and 4.246 light years farther in the opposite direction.

And this in no way negates God.

Bringing it back to gaming CoC is just a fucking game, nothing else. It's not going to bring about the end of civilization.

The existance of any other intelligent species just proves our superiority as they are 4.246 light years away from the center of the observable universe and therefore that much less important.

Lovecraft is just mirroring the reality of our own unpalatable facts.

There is no god.
We are not important.
The universe doesn't care if we exist or not (and it wouldn't matter if we were annihilated).
Most humans are selfish or just evil.

If this segues into another 'RPGs lead people into satanism' line of bullshit, someone is getting punched in the throat.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 02:45:34 AM
Well IRL belief in God does shield you from falling into the SJW cult.

This is the terrible paradox that atheists like me must contend with - HPL thought of it as comforting falsehoods, IMC I reframe it as a kind of psychic planetary defence shield within a weak Jungian version of the Gaia Hypothesis... our gods, our morality, are not literally 'true', but without them we have no defence against the Outer Dark. The God Emperor of WH40K is not literally a god, but belief in his divinity is still Man's best defence against the creatures of the Warp. Who represent existential nihilism and despair just as does Nyarlathotep, or madness as does Hastur.

The people who know The Truth are not only ineffectual as defenders of Humanity, they can be positively dangerous to Humanity. The ignorant, devoted Priest of Mithra is a far better defender of the Earth & Mankind than the Atlantean Scholar who has uncovered the real truths of existence.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 02:43:31 AM
Bringing it back to gaming CoC is just a fucking game, nothing else. It's not going to bring about the end of civilization.

I'm a Peterson fan and an atheist, and his talks have given me a new perspective on God and appreciation of religion.
But CoC, to me, is as "evil" as something like Friday the 13th. It's a book. I don't think it's evil any more than a world full of monsters and demons makes D&D a gateway to devil worship.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 24, 2022, 02:45:34 AM

Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2022, 02:37:51 AM
>>Anthroponormativity is the only escape both for the characters in the game, and for the participants controlling them<<

Yes. The Mythos universe is meaningless, which was a horrific thought within a Christian context, and Peterson seems to find it horrific still - he does have a charmingly 1920s view of existence, an agnostic wrestling with the terrors of scientific discovery. But humans are as much a part of the universe as the Great Old Ones or the Great Race of Yith, who don't seem to suffer too much from cosmic ennui. The universe can't make humanity not care about ourselves. Existence is a struggle for existence; humans are a young species and relatively weak compared to many outsider species, but hardly helpless.

I deal with/play with these concepts a lot in my Primeval Thule campaign, where sundry Great Old Ones tend to be the main BBEGs. I mix a lot of science and pseudoscience in there with a Zoroastrian* type set up. IMC the beliefs of the terrestrial races create a kind of combined psychic shield against the alien menaces of the Outer Dark. Just as worship appears give power to Cthulu or Hastur, the beliefs of the Serpentmen 'created' their god Set (worshipped as Set by the humans), the beliefs of the humans et al 'create' Mitra Azura et al; these psychic entities battle the parasitic infestations of the Extraterrene. Mortals see the Northern Lights as a manifestation or reflection of this great battle, conceived in religious terms as a struggle between the human gods & the demons of the Outer Dark for mastery of the Earth. 

*TL;DR: Nietzsche FTW 

Well IRL belief in God does shield you from falling into the SJW cult.

Not so much.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/december/southern-baptist-critical-race-theory-debate-crt-seminary-s.html

Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2022, 02:37:51 AM
>>Anthroponormativity is the only escape both for the characters in the game, and for the participants controlling them<<

Yes. The Mythos universe is meaningless, which was a horrific thought within a Christian context, and Peterson seems to find it horrific still - he does have a charmingly 1920s view of existence, an agnostic wrestling with the terrors of scientific discovery. But humans are as much a part of the universe as the Great Old Ones or the Great Race of Yith, who don't seem to suffer too much from cosmic ennui. The universe can't make humanity not care about ourselves. Existence is a struggle for existence; humans are a young species and relatively weak compared to many outsider species, but hardly helpless.

I like it. All the other independent races had to start somewhere, didn't they? It's just that the process of fighting and winning a "war of independence"--which might be an endless war--seems to involve a transvaluation of all values such that the men of the future might possess a necessary ethic of that future which pre-independence humans would find cold, ruthless, and reprehensible. What becomes of agape in such a future?

QuoteI deal with/play with these concepts a lot in my Primeval Thule campaign, where sundry Great Old Ones tend to be the main BBEGs. I mix a lot of science and pseudoscience in there with a Zoroastrian* type set up. IMC the beliefs of the terrestrial races create a kind of combined psychic shield against the alien menaces of the Outer Dark. Just as worship appears to give power to Cthulu or Hastur, the beliefs of the Serpentmen 'created' their god Set (worshipped as Set by the humans), the beliefs of the humans et al 'create' Mitra Azura et al; these psychic entities battle the parasitic infestations of the Extraterrene. Mortals see the Northern Lights as a manifestation or reflection of this great battle, conceived in religious terms as a struggle between the human gods & the demons of the Outer Dark for mastery of the Earth. 

*TL;DR: Nietzsche FTW 

A word for your concept is egregore