Shadowdark, made a big splash. I know there were other systems with strong followings, also.
Is any other system slowing down the momentum and impact, of OSE?
Or, is OSE still the shizzle?
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 13, 2023, 10:24:54 PM
Shadowdark, made a big splash. I know there were other systems with strong followings, also.
Is any other system slowing down the momentum and impact, of OSE?
Or, is OSE still the shizzle?
I don't know. I love OSE, it's my OSR game of choice. Many people talk about it fondly and I don't hear anything bad about OSE. I am working to teach more people OSE and get them away from D&D 5e and into the OSR. Anything I can do to deprive WOTC of money for me is a win.
I would argue that Basic Fantasy was a contender.
OSE does seem popular, but it's not my choice for a D&D replacement. Olde Swords Reign or Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool are my two. Olde Swords Reign is even free.
I'm idly curious how much of OSE's dominance is groups running in OSE specifically, versus being the new lingua franca that GMs of other clones know they can convert from.
If there's some of the latter that takes nothing away from it, in fact it makes it harder to displace. ACKS' second edition kickstarter hit big numbers and I know some of those books will see real play, but I don't particularly expect non-ACKS adventure writers to start statting for ACKS first for instance.
I enjoy OSR but never got into OSE. I seem to enjoy the OSR adjacent type products like Worlds Without Number. Plus ACKS kickstarter got me to buy it after eyeballing it for years. Don't know if I'll get a campaign out of it but has some good rules to tack onto other games like AD&D.
The other thing about OSE is that compared to the vast majority of the other retroclones, it has a fairly robust brick and mortar presence. The only other game of its ilk that I've seen in so many gaming or book stores is DCC, which is more adjacent in that it's really a hybrid rather than a retroclone. And a number of companies (like Frog God) in addition to independent creators are doing OSE editions of their adventures. To be fair, a few are starting to do Shadowdark as well.
I'll be curious as to how things go with OSE once Dolmenwood is fully released. Will people play both? Or drop OSE for Dolmenwood? Or stick with OSE?
I'm also wondering if ACKS will continue its momentum. The KS for Imperial Imprint was kind of shocking, especially given the price point. Interested to see how it fares going forward.
Quote from: Dave 2 on December 16, 2023, 02:40:55 PM
I'm idly curious how much of OSE's dominance is groups running in OSE specifically, versus being the new lingua franca that GMs of other clones know they can convert from.
This isn't scientific of course but I run my OSE game online using Fantasy Grounds and on the forums my game was one of three games that was (Mine is full now) that was looking for players. So it appears to be picking up steam.
I think the OSR itself is pretty fragmented so there are a lot of people playing different things.
If you are playing in the OSR, it's probably because you want to play good games, rather than popular games. So I'm tempted to answer "who cares"? I have never played OSE, but I have used adventures which include "for OSE" on the front cover. They tend to be well written and I can use them with any OSR game with no modifications. I play various games based on ODD, B/x, and 1e. None of them are "big" games and neither is OSE. Of the dozen or so gamers who will play OSR games in my area I have only met one guy who mentions having played OSE. It might still be the best seller for physical copies, but it's not ubiquitous. I would not expect any title to ever dominate the OSR play space.
I'm launching a Kickstarter campaign in a week or so that will hopefully catapult Advanced Crimson Dragon Slayer to the #1 spot among OSR rule-sets. Tentacles crossed!
VS
OSE is probably going to be king forever in its particular segment of the OSR. That is to say, there probably won't even be another attempt at a faithful recreation of the B/X ruleset without the designer's own house rules. The only thing that would still be missing is a B/X retroclone that does as good (or better) a job at teaching you how to play the system as Moldvay or Mentzer Basic did.
If we're looking at the segment that LotFP led for a while, there is room for another one to come in. That is a system that is fairly faithful to B/X, but cleans up some of the rules that a lot of people had objections to, for example the Thief. So something more or less like LotFP but without the emphasis on weirdness that is a turnoff for some people. Or like ACKS II but lighter weight.
But the problem with anything in this category, is not everyone agrees on what isn't good about B/X. People are willing to put up with distasteful elements in OSE because it is a faithful recreation, they won't be willing to do the same with any system that makes changes, and doesn't get rid of the elements they don't like. So the audience will always be smaller. So because of that OSE probably won't be dethroned.
Quote from: migo on December 19, 2023, 12:58:34 PM
OSE is probably going to be king forever in its particular segment of the OSR. That is to say, there probably won't even be another attempt at a faithful recreation of the B/X ruleset without the designer's own house rules. The only thing that would still be missing is a B/X retroclone that does as good (or better) a job at teaching you how to play the system as Moldvay or Mentzer Basic did.
If we're looking at the segment that LotFP led for a while, there is room for another one to come in. That is a system that is fairly faithful to B/X, but cleans up some of the rules that a lot of people had objections to, for example the Thief. So something more or less like LotFP but without the emphasis on weirdness that is a turnoff for some people. Or like ACKS II but lighter weight.
But the problem with anything in this category, is not everyone agrees on what isn't good about B/X. People are willing to put up with distasteful elements in OSE because it is a faithful recreation, they won't be willing to do the same with any system that makes changes, and doesn't get rid of the elements they don't like. So the audience will always be smaller. So because of that OSE probably won't be dethroned.
Isn't it time the OSR "leaves the nest" in terms of faithful recreations of the original texts? Sure, use them as inspiration and a starting point, but we're going to be in 2024 pretty soon here... we can put new flesh on those ancient bones. BTW, I'm address this to everybody, not just migo.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on December 21, 2023, 02:48:11 PM
Quote from: migo on December 19, 2023, 12:58:34 PM
OSE is probably going to be king forever in its particular segment of the OSR. That is to say, there probably won't even be another attempt at a faithful recreation of the B/X ruleset without the designer's own house rules. The only thing that would still be missing is a B/X retroclone that does as good (or better) a job at teaching you how to play the system as Moldvay or Mentzer Basic did.
If we're looking at the segment that LotFP led for a while, there is room for another one to come in. That is a system that is fairly faithful to B/X, but cleans up some of the rules that a lot of people had objections to, for example the Thief. So something more or less like LotFP but without the emphasis on weirdness that is a turnoff for some people. Or like ACKS II but lighter weight.
But the problem with anything in this category, is not everyone agrees on what isn't good about B/X. People are willing to put up with distasteful elements in OSE because it is a faithful recreation, they won't be willing to do the same with any system that makes changes, and doesn't get rid of the elements they don't like. So the audience will always be smaller. So because of that OSE probably won't be dethroned.
Isn't it time the OSR "leaves the nest" in terms of faithful recreations of the original texts? Sure, use them as inspiration and a starting point, but we're going to be in 2024 pretty soon here... we can put new flesh on those ancient bones. BTW, I'm address this to everybody, not just migo.
I still have some of the board games from the 60s in my collection and, if I could find them for a decent price, there are even more vintage board games I would want to bring home. I also love some of the newer games that have come out. King of Tokyo has turned into a family favorite at my house. I don't think I need to flog this allegory any further for people to see I mean that I think there's room for a faithful reproduction of the original rules sets and for new interpretations.
Going even further, D&D was always meant to be a cottage craft experience with each GM building their own world of adventure with the rules as a foundation. I know my own table borrows deeply from published material but you'll never find much of our experiences in any book or module out there.
The most beautiful thing about the current OSR movement is that it's a beautifully overstocked buffet of options for building the worlds where it all fits together but there are pieces that have very different flavors. GMs can create something unique without having to do deep engineering to get it playable at the table.
I own OSR products from RPGPundit, OSE, and you and I use them in my own setting. To everyone that is doing the work to both preserve the original game tool sets and those that are branching off to create new material that's compatible with them, you have my deepest thanks.
Is Shadowdark still a big deal? I have no idea. I don't see many people talking about it any more but maybe I am missing something. It seemed very flavor of the month to me. The OSR seems too decentralized for there to really be a Big Thing. There's too many people all doing their own thing and going their own direction.
Quote from: yosemitemike on December 22, 2023, 04:30:23 AM
Is Shadowdark still a big deal? I have no idea. I don't see many people talking about it any more but maybe I am missing something. It seemed very flavor of the month to me. The OSR seems too decentralized for there to really be a Big Thing. There's too many people all doing their own thing and going their own direction.
My books from the kickstarter are due to arrive next week so it feels like a big deal to me. Not that I plan to replace all my earlier OSR stuff with Shadowdark. There is no need. It is just one more ingredient to add to my OSR gaming.
Just a casual look on drivethru shows many pages of products have already been published for Shadowdark. Not bad, considering that the full rulebook has yet to ship. Will it ever outsell OSE? I can only think of two people who have any reason to care about that. For me, it is enough to know both products fit comfortably within the OSR and their published adventures can be used interchangeably with no significant conversion work required.
My brother plays in OSE games. He says that of the various alternatives, he just kind of likes it best. There is a lot to be said for a game just doing what you expect it to do.
I'm kind of surprised OSRIC isn't bigger. I mean, yeah, it lacks the gygaxian feel of 1e, but also it's more easily playable, less weird and chaotic, and came to the scene of the OSR pretty early. Though I guess part of it might be that 1e is partly enjoyed because you basically have to homebrew to readily make sense of it...
If you're going for that Gygaxian feel, easy playability definitely isn't your highest priority.
Yeah, that could be why it doesn't work for most folks, maybe...
In a sense the lack of accessibility is part of 1e's features, in that it forced practically everyone not to play it raw.
I'm not sure how you would even go about determining what's big in the OSR when everything is so decentralized. How many people are playing OSRIC? I have no idea. I don't even know how I would go about determining that.
Mostly just meant sales and hype, myself, but that's a good point. My group is currently planning on primarily using the pseudo-SRD setup for OSRIC, which is basically free. Hard to determine actual gameplay share more generally, no question. Heck, I don't even know their exact sales more generally. Just that it seems they're not as big an operation as OSE, which is probable but I guess could be deceiving?
It's hard to say without hard sales numbers. I doubt we will ever get those. Privately held companies don't have to disclose this stuff and they have no real incentive to do so.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 23, 2023, 11:04:19 PM
I'm kind of surprised OSRIC isn't bigger. I mean, yeah, it lacks the gygaxian feel of 1e, but also it's more easily playable, less weird and chaotic, and came to the scene of the OSR pretty early. Though I guess part of it might be that 1e is partly enjoyed because you basically have to homebrew to readily make sense of it...
Maybe because it's boring, soulless and not well-organized? Despite what some people say, when I checked it out as a possible alternative to to my old AD&D stuff, I found it totally lacking, except for the digest-sizing, which I rather like. It's probably just my familiarity with the originals, but I didn't find OSRIC to be an improvement at all for playing at the table. For one, I prefer spell descriptions grouped by level. And I really hate how they split the monsters into types. And no monk? Forget it.
I think most people will get the game that just "clicks" with them.
Or free. That helps.
The fact that Old School Essentials has a free set of introductory rules really helps.
But, if didn't click with me. If I'm honest I'm still a fan of Palladium games. They have Macross/RoboTech and Rifts.
These days I like simpler games I can just pick up and play.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 24, 2023, 10:41:14 AM
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 23, 2023, 11:04:19 PM
I'm kind of surprised OSRIC isn't bigger. I mean, yeah, it lacks the gygaxian feel of 1e, but also it's more easily playable, less weird and chaotic, and came to the scene of the OSR pretty early. Though I guess part of it might be that 1e is partly enjoyed because you basically have to homebrew to readily make sense of it...
Maybe because it's boring, soulless and not well-organized? Despite what some people say, when I checked it out as a possible alternative to to my old AD&D stuff, I found it totally lacking, except for the digest-sizing, which I rather like. It's probably just my familiarity with the originals, but I didn't find OSRIC to be an improvement at all for playing at the table. For one, I prefer spell descriptions grouped by level. And I really hate how they split the monsters into types. And no monk? Forget it.
For organization and spells by level, the following sort of does it better, I think?: https://www.leveldrain.com/srd
Can't really help with monster types or monk, tho. Do your players use 1e OA and the like for enhanced monk martial arts? I had heard and thought they were kinda meh, tbh, in 1e without such expansions...
Odds are this won't help much, but I did want to try and hype it up if I could. I like 1e too, and even prefer its feel and some of its options, but sometimes have trouble navigating it, tbh.
I basically flopped as a 1e AD&D DM, not least due to related issues alongside bad adaptation/improv/adjudication, in the sense that also my players couldn't understand the core of what to expect and how to play. With the OSRIC SRD at least there's a free and easily accessible copy of the core rules that they can understand.
That and the promise of the module Megadungeon of Arden Vul (and consequently a bit less improv on my part) got me a second chance, which we'll have to see how that goes, ultimately. I'm basically using OSRIC as the core, with some minor optional player possibilities from 1e for those interested. Doubt this would be a good thing for most folks to aim for, but my point kind of is that for easy accessibility to new players and DMs the OSRIC core SRD doesn't seem half bad.
That said, I can see where to a veteran DM for 1e with a solid group of players it would be less enticing. Possibly even seeming like less of the same. (Which it kind of is, though not always in a bad way, I guess.)
Quote from: yosemitemike on December 22, 2023, 04:30:23 AM
Is Shadowdark still a big deal? I have no idea. I don't see many people talking about it any more but maybe I am missing something. It seemed very flavor of the month to me. The OSR seems too decentralized for there to really be a Big Thing. There's too many people all doing their own thing and going their own direction.
I think it received a lot of advance attention on the internet, but the actual delivery of product is underway now? People are still waiting to receive their hard copies.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 24, 2023, 12:46:44 PM
I basically flopped as a 1e AD&D DM, not least due to related issues alongside bad adaptation/improv/adjudication, in the sense that also my players couldn't understand the core of what to expect and how to play. With the OSRIC SRD at least there's a free and easily accessible copy of the core rules that they can understand.
That and the promise of the module Megadungeon of Arden Vul (and consequently a bit less improv on my part) got me a second chance, which we'll have to see how that goes, ultimately. I'm basically using OSRIC as the core, with some minor optional player possibilities from 1e for those interested. Doubt this would be a good thing for most folks to aim for, but my point kind of is that for easy accessibility to new players and DMs the OSRIC core SRD doesn't seem half bad.
That said, I can see where to a veteran DM for 1e with a solid group of players it would be less enticing. Possibly even seeming like less of the same. (Which it kind of is, though not always in a bad way, I guess.)
I do think a lot has to do with players & system experience. I grew up playing D&D and AD&D so those rules are the ones I know best. So having to find totally reorganized stuff in OSRIC is not appealing.
As for monks, I always liked them, perhaps because of my love of Kung fu films of the 70s-80s. Don't really care about adding the OA stuff, but I love the unarmed damage and we just create names for styles and describe what we're doing. We also played lots of OA when it came out and still use some of those classes, however. Too bad nobody has seriously done a reboot of that. Joseph Bloch's "Swords of Wuxia" is good for adding Chinese stuff, but adding the other Asia stuff would be cool.
I'll be interested to hear how Arden Vul goes for you. I bought it and enjoyed reading it, but I find it just too long and convoluted to actually run. There are just so many factions and so much lore packed in there. And spreading it out over 5 books, 3 of which you'll need at any time, doesn't help. And for all that, he didn't include monster xp values in stat blocks, so you're doing that yourself. Easier to run Tegel Manor or Rappan Athak for Swords & Wizardry. But if you have a good experience running Arden Vul, post here and let us know how you did it.
I'll let folks know how it goes, for sure. To be honest, I am admittedly a bit nervous regarding my ability to handle the module well for many of the reason you have brought up. It and its connection to OSRIC got me player buy-in and another shot at running OSR, but if I blow this one it'll be a pretty big bummer. Still, I'm glad to have the chance to show folks a bit of the module and OSR, and will do my best to make it fun for folks regardless of how it ultimately goes. ;D
Quote from: Persimmon on December 24, 2023, 02:50:29 PM
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 24, 2023, 12:46:44 PM
I basically flopped as a 1e AD&D DM, not least due to related issues alongside bad adaptation/improv/adjudication, in the sense that also my players couldn't understand the core of what to expect and how to play. With the OSRIC SRD at least there's a free and easily accessible copy of the core rules that they can understand.
That and the promise of the module Megadungeon of Arden Vul (and consequently a bit less improv on my part) got me a second chance, which we'll have to see how that goes, ultimately. I'm basically using OSRIC as the core, with some minor optional player possibilities from 1e for those interested. Doubt this would be a good thing for most folks to aim for, but my point kind of is that for easy accessibility to new players and DMs the OSRIC core SRD doesn't seem half bad.
That said, I can see where to a veteran DM for 1e with a solid group of players it would be less enticing. Possibly even seeming like less of the same. (Which it kind of is, though not always in a bad way, I guess.)
I do think a lot has to do with players & system experience. I grew up playing D&D and AD&D so those rules are the ones I know best. So having to find totally reorganized stuff in OSRIC is not appealing.
As for monks, I always liked them, perhaps because of my love of Kung fu films of the 70s-80s. Don't really care about adding the OA stuff, but I love the unarmed damage and we just create names for styles and describe what we're doing. We also played lots of OA when it came out and still use some of those classes, however. Too bad nobody has seriously done a reboot of that. Joseph Bloch's "Swords of Wuxia" is good for adding Chinese stuff, but adding the other Asia stuff would be cool.
I'll be interested to hear how Arden Vul goes for you. I bought it and enjoyed reading it, but I find it just too long and convoluted to actually run. There are just so many factions and so much lore packed in there. And spreading it out over 5 books, 3 of which you'll need at any time, doesn't help. And for all that, he didn't include monster xp values in stat blocks, so you're doing that yourself. Easier to run Tegel Manor or Rappan Athak for Swords & Wizardry. But if you have a good experience running Arden Vul, post here and let us know how you did it.
Rappan Athuk is massive. A single volume, but massive. I own the 5E compatible version; because it is the most recent edition, and supposedly contains some additional content. Maps, I think? I believe I snagged it during a half price Christmas sale, last year? I did the same thing the previous year, with the 5E compatible Temple of Elemental Evil. Gotta love, half price sales.
One of my friends has essentially called dibs on Rappan Athuk for part of his 5e setting. It's been in every single campaign our groups have played there, in theory or in reference, but has yet to actually be attempted or explored. Looking forward to it, but pretty much everybody else regularly gets scared off by its in-game rep for lethality and size. Which is kinda weird, since a lot of those same people are now signed up for Arden Vul. But it might also just be that the guy runs a very good sandbox, and folks are less interested in a prebuilt dungeon when quality content of that sort is the alternative. ;)
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 24, 2023, 04:43:47 PM
One of my friends has essentially called dibs on Rappan Athuk for part of his 5e setting. It's been in every single campaign our groups have played there, in theory or in reference, but has yet to actually be attempted or explored. Looking forward to it, but pretty much everybody else regularly gets scared off by its in-game rep for lethality and size. Which is kinda weird, since a lot of those same people are now signed up for Arden Vul. But it might also just be that the guy runs a very good sandbox, and folks are less interested in a prebuilt dungeon when quality content of that sort is the alternative. ;)
We ran about 10 levels of Rappan Athuk a couple years back, then the party hit a teleporter that took them to Necropolis, which we went all the way through. Looking back, I liked Rappan Athuk a lot. There are a ton of levels, but most can be completed in one session so you can pull them out or run it in serial fashion. I would like to try and run it as a campaign. As it turns out so of my grad students, who are all 5e players, are interested in trying old school play. So I'm leaning towards Swords & Wizardry for the system. I may go Rappan Athuk, but if my copy of Dark Tower from Goodman Games comes before we start, I may run that, since I've never played it and they've added new material so you can start at low level with it. Just seems right running an old Judge's Guild adventure with S&W.
Let us know how it goes, for sure! Especially if you go Dark Tower. (Not to put any pressure that way, just haven't seen much of Judges Guild personally, so would be interested to know how a related adventure might run.)
I'm just going to shoot my opinion blindly into this, after having listened to one of RPGpundits live streams.
OSE and other retroclones still have a niche
Pundit was a tad dismissive towards it in that he viewed it as merely another repackaging and art redo of Basic Expert, and in some sense that is true.
What he and others fail to understand is that there is still a great deal of room for improvement of presentation, and OSE hit the peak in my opinion, comparing it to OSRIC, or Basic Fantasy, it runs circles around them in value per page and effectiveness of conveyed rules.
I know for a fact Basic Fantasy was made in libreoffice with ODT files which is just gross.
While OSE is clearly a really well thought out LaTex template, simply the step from visual text editor to a script based one is an astronomical improvement.
Layout, presentation and clarity of language can make or break a ruleset, it's why retroclones exist because TSR's books are kind of ugly and shit by modern standards.
I find it more amusing when Pundit implies it will be merely be supplanted by some other B/X retroclone with different layout and new funky art, which is missing the point on what made OSE win.
While genius in a design sense, Pundit's opinion on layout and presentation is subpar, case and point Invisible Collage having light brown text on that fake parchment look, it's garish as shit and hard to read. Who ever started the trend of fake ass parchment textures in a book should have their eyes branded with a cattle prong.
I hate it so much in fact, I'd buy Invisible Collage again if there was a black and white print version, preferably titled "doesn't rape your eyes edition"
OSE will remain the king of the retroclones.
To me it somewhat perfected the formatting and thus I can't imagine anything anyone could do that would be considered objectively better layout or editing. that said I can imagine a slew of house rules published as retroclones that ape OSE style, which is good because it's layout and format kick 12 degrees of ass.
You can actually make perfectly awesome-looking books in LibreOffice. I recently switched to Affinity Publisher for technical reasons. A dedicated layout program is designed to handle lots of images in large files. LibreOffice started to have performance problems for me as I worked on larger projects, and of course it doesn't handle re-flowing text as well.