Shadowdark, made a big splash.  I know there were other systems with strong followings, also.

Is any other system slowing down the momentum and impact, of OSE?

Or, is OSE still the shizzle?

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 13, 2023, 10:24:54 PM
Shadowdark, made a big splash.  I know there were other systems with strong followings, also.

Is any other system slowing down the momentum and impact, of OSE?

Or, is OSE still the shizzle?

I don't know.  I love OSE, it's my OSR game of choice.  Many people talk about it fondly and I don't hear anything bad about OSE.  I am working to teach more people OSE and get them away from D&D 5e and into the OSR.  Anything I can do to deprive WOTC of money for me is a win.

I would argue that Basic Fantasy was a contender. 

OSE does seem popular, but it's not my choice for a D&D replacement.  Olde Swords Reign or Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool are my two. Olde Swords Reign is even free.

I'm idly curious how much of OSE's dominance is groups running in OSE specifically, versus being the new lingua franca that GMs of other clones know they can convert from.

If there's some of the latter that takes nothing away from it, in fact it makes it harder to displace. ACKS' second edition kickstarter hit big numbers and I know some of those books will see real play, but I don't particularly expect non-ACKS adventure writers to start statting for ACKS first for instance.

I enjoy OSR but never got into OSE.  I seem to enjoy the OSR adjacent type products like Worlds Without Number. Plus ACKS kickstarter got me to buy it after eyeballing it for years. Don't know if I'll get a campaign out of it but has some good rules to tack onto other games like AD&D.

The other thing about OSE is that compared to the vast majority of the other retroclones, it has a fairly robust brick and mortar presence.  The only other game of its ilk that I've seen in so many gaming or book stores is DCC, which is more adjacent in that it's really a hybrid rather than a retroclone.  And a number of companies (like Frog God) in addition to independent creators are doing OSE editions of their adventures.  To be fair, a few are starting to do Shadowdark as well.

I'll be curious as to how things go with OSE once Dolmenwood is fully released.  Will people play both?  Or drop OSE for Dolmenwood?  Or stick with OSE?

I'm also wondering if ACKS will continue its momentum.  The KS for Imperial Imprint was kind of shocking, especially given the price point.  Interested to see how it fares going forward.

Quote from: Dave 2 on December 16, 2023, 02:40:55 PM
I'm idly curious how much of OSE's dominance is groups running in OSE specifically, versus being the new lingua franca that GMs of other clones know they can convert from.

This isn't scientific of course but I run my OSE game online using Fantasy Grounds and on the forums my game was one of three games that was (Mine is full now) that was looking for players.  So it appears to be picking up steam.

I think the OSR itself is pretty fragmented so there are a lot of people playing different things.

If you are playing in the OSR, it's probably because you want to play good games, rather than popular games. So I'm tempted to answer "who cares"? I have never played OSE, but I have used adventures which include "for OSE" on the front cover. They tend to be well written and I can use them with any OSR game with no modifications. I play various games based on ODD, B/x, and 1e. None of them are "big" games and neither is OSE. Of the dozen or so gamers who will play OSR games in my area I have only met one guy who mentions having played OSE. It might still be the best seller for physical copies, but it's not ubiquitous. I would not expect any title to ever dominate the OSR play space.

I'm launching a Kickstarter campaign in a week or so that will hopefully catapult Advanced Crimson Dragon Slayer to the #1 spot among OSR rule-sets.  Tentacles crossed!

VS

OSE is probably going to be king forever in its particular segment of the OSR. That is to say, there probably won't even be another attempt at a faithful recreation of the B/X ruleset without the designer's own house rules. The only thing that would still be missing is a B/X retroclone that does as good (or better) a job at teaching you how to play the system as Moldvay or Mentzer Basic did.

If we're looking at the segment that LotFP led for a while, there is room for another one to come in. That is a system that is fairly faithful to B/X, but cleans up some of the rules that a lot of people had objections to, for example the Thief. So something more or less like LotFP but without the emphasis on weirdness that is a turnoff for some people. Or like ACKS II but lighter weight.

But the problem with anything in this category, is not everyone agrees on what isn't good about B/X. People are willing to put up with distasteful elements in OSE because it is a faithful recreation, they won't be willing to do the same with any system that makes changes, and doesn't get rid of the elements they don't like. So the audience will always be smaller. So because of that OSE probably won't be dethroned.

Quote from: migo on December 19, 2023, 12:58:34 PM
OSE is probably going to be king forever in its particular segment of the OSR. That is to say, there probably won't even be another attempt at a faithful recreation of the B/X ruleset without the designer's own house rules. The only thing that would still be missing is a B/X retroclone that does as good (or better) a job at teaching you how to play the system as Moldvay or Mentzer Basic did.

If we're looking at the segment that LotFP led for a while, there is room for another one to come in. That is a system that is fairly faithful to B/X, but cleans up some of the rules that a lot of people had objections to, for example the Thief. So something more or less like LotFP but without the emphasis on weirdness that is a turnoff for some people. Or like ACKS II but lighter weight.

But the problem with anything in this category, is not everyone agrees on what isn't good about B/X. People are willing to put up with distasteful elements in OSE because it is a faithful recreation, they won't be willing to do the same with any system that makes changes, and doesn't get rid of the elements they don't like. So the audience will always be smaller. So because of that OSE probably won't be dethroned.

Isn't it time the OSR "leaves the nest" in terms of faithful recreations of the original texts?  Sure, use them as inspiration and a starting point, but we're going to be in 2024 pretty soon here... we can put new flesh on those ancient bones.  BTW, I'm address this to everybody, not just migo.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on December 21, 2023, 02:48:11 PM

Quote from: migo on December 19, 2023, 12:58:34 PM
OSE is probably going to be king forever in its particular segment of the OSR. That is to say, there probably won't even be another attempt at a faithful recreation of the B/X ruleset without the designer's own house rules. The only thing that would still be missing is a B/X retroclone that does as good (or better) a job at teaching you how to play the system as Moldvay or Mentzer Basic did.

If we're looking at the segment that LotFP led for a while, there is room for another one to come in. That is a system that is fairly faithful to B/X, but cleans up some of the rules that a lot of people had objections to, for example the Thief. So something more or less like LotFP but without the emphasis on weirdness that is a turnoff for some people. Or like ACKS II but lighter weight.

But the problem with anything in this category, is not everyone agrees on what isn't good about B/X. People are willing to put up with distasteful elements in OSE because it is a faithful recreation, they won't be willing to do the same with any system that makes changes, and doesn't get rid of the elements they don't like. So the audience will always be smaller. So because of that OSE probably won't be dethroned.

Isn't it time the OSR "leaves the nest" in terms of faithful recreations of the original texts?  Sure, use them as inspiration and a starting point, but we're going to be in 2024 pretty soon here... we can put new flesh on those ancient bones.  BTW, I'm address this to everybody, not just migo.

I still have some of the board games from the 60s in my collection and, if I could find them for a decent price, there are even more vintage board games I would want to bring home.  I also love some of the newer games that have come out.  King of Tokyo has turned into a family favorite at my house.  I don't think I need to flog this allegory any further for people to see I mean that I think there's room for a faithful reproduction of the original rules sets and for new interpretations.

Going even further, D&D was always meant to be a cottage craft experience with each GM building their own world of adventure with the rules as a foundation.  I know my own table borrows deeply from published material but you'll never find much of our experiences in any book or module out there.  The most beautiful thing about the current OSR movement is that it's a beautifully overstocked buffet of options for building the worlds where it all fits together but there are pieces that have very different flavors. GMs can create something unique without having to do deep engineering to get it playable at the table.   

I own OSR products from RPGPundit, OSE, and you and I use them in my own setting.  To everyone that is doing the work to both preserve the original game tool sets and those that are branching off to create new material that's compatible with them, you have my deepest thanks. 

Is Shadowdark still a big deal?  I have no idea.  I don't see many people talking about it any more but maybe I am missing something.  It seemed very flavor of the month to me.  The OSR seems too decentralized for there to really be a Big Thing.  There's too many people all doing their own thing and going their own direction. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 22, 2023, 04:30:23 AM
Is Shadowdark still a big deal?  I have no idea.  I don't see many people talking about it any more but maybe I am missing something.  It seemed very flavor of the month to me.  The OSR seems too decentralized for there to really be a Big Thing.  There's too many people all doing their own thing and going their own direction.

My books from the kickstarter are due to arrive next week so it feels like a big deal to me. Not that I plan to replace all my earlier OSR stuff with Shadowdark. There is no need. It is just one more ingredient to add to my OSR gaming.

Just a casual look on drivethru shows many pages of products have already been published for Shadowdark. Not bad, considering that the full rulebook has yet to ship. Will it ever outsell OSE? I can only think of two people who have any reason to care about that. For me, it is enough to know both products fit comfortably within the OSR and their published adventures can be used interchangeably with no significant conversion work required.

My brother plays in OSE games. He says that of the various alternatives, he just kind of likes it best. There is a lot to be said for a game just doing what you expect it to do.