Quote from: Wrath of God on December 06, 2023, 11:30:19 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 03, 2023, 08:04:18 PM
Now, let's postulate a world where the gods intervene everyday, where you can witness clerics healing by impossing hands, where wizards cast fireballs, where druids wildshape, where if a werewolf bites you you become one too, where vampires are real, demons exist, so do djinns and other supernatural entities.

Can you imagine such a world?

Now, in such a world the answer to why the apple falls from the tree is because the gods will it. Why would anyone doubt such an explanation? Even if in the game world gravity works just like in ours.

Because imagine this people believed in divine interventions for centuries and it did not stop them from seeking patter in nature.
Anti-logic universes are rarely. Nightmarish whimsical where reality is in constant flux is rare. Generally speaking in our world or in fantasy large chunk of nature of reality is solid and even gods cannot wantonly (or don't want as their is Cosmic Order) change them. And if people notices order, when they notices patterns, then clear realization is that Divine Work is orderly, solid, logical and therefore it's worthy to understand how gods organised world. And that's how natural philosophy starts, and it's mother of science.

I agree with Wrath of God here. In real history, Isaac Newton who discovered gravity was very much doing so because he believed that gravity was God's law, and it was important to study God's law to appreciate the glory of His Creation. Functionally, it's the same thing for a theist to seek out the gods' laws as for an atheist to seek out the laws of a godless universe. They're both looking for falsifiable patterns to how things work.

The important thing about the discovery of gravity isn't the atheist explanation for it (which Newton would have opposed). It's the discovery of the pattern that how the planets move that could be the same for all bodies in the universe.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 05, 2023, 08:27:06 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 05, 2023, 12:52:22 AM
Isaac Newton was a religionist, a magician, and a scientist, all at once.

Point of order. You say "magician," but at that time the field of Chymistry (i.e. alchemy on its way to becoming chemistry) was a part of what were known as the natural magics (the precursors of astronomy, biology, botony, chemistry and physics; a literal example of Clarke's inverse law; any sufficiently studied magic becomes science).

Sir Newton was not an occultist attempting to summon up or bargain with spirits when not working on optics, gravity and calculus; he was also a proto-chemist.

Alchemy was in some sense proto-chemistry, but it was pursued with a very different methodology and purpose. Alchemists - including Newton - had a personal relationship with the formulae they were mixing in search of spiritual enlightenment. They saw themselves as trying to unlock secrets of the ancients. They published their findings as coded poetry talking about the green lion, the two-headed hermaphrodite, and other symbols - which Newton read and annotated though he didn't publish his own such works.

This overlaps with scientific findings, but there are major differences. Newton did a lot of experimentation with chemicals, but for him most of that was very private and personal work, in keeping with alchemical tradition.

Quote from: jhkim on December 06, 2023, 12:23:57 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 06, 2023, 11:30:19 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 03, 2023, 08:04:18 PM
Now, let's postulate a world where the gods intervene everyday, where you can witness clerics healing by impossing hands, where wizards cast fireballs, where druids wildshape, where if a werewolf bites you you become one too, where vampires are real, demons exist, so do djinns and other supernatural entities.

Can you imagine such a world?

Now, in such a world the answer to why the apple falls from the tree is because the gods will it. Why would anyone doubt such an explanation? Even if in the game world gravity works just like in ours.

Because imagine this people believed in divine interventions for centuries and it did not stop them from seeking patter in nature.
Anti-logic universes are rarely. Nightmarish whimsical where reality is in constant flux is rare. Generally speaking in our world or in fantasy large chunk of nature of reality is solid and even gods cannot wantonly (or don't want as their is Cosmic Order) change them. And if people notices order, when they notices patterns, then clear realization is that Divine Work is orderly, solid, logical and therefore it's worthy to understand how gods organised world. And that's how natural philosophy starts, and it's mother of science.

I agree with Wrath of God here. In real history, Isaac Newton who discovered gravity was very much doing so because he believed that gravity was God's law, and it was important to study God's law to appreciate the glory of His Creation. Functionally, it's the same thing for a theist to seek out the gods' laws as for an atheist to seek out the laws of a godless universe. They're both looking for falsifiable patterns to how things work.

The important thing about the discovery of gravity isn't the atheist explanation for it (which Newton would have opposed). It's the discovery of the pattern that how the planets move that could be the same for all bodies in the universe.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 05, 2023, 08:27:06 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 05, 2023, 12:52:22 AM
Isaac Newton was a religionist, a magician, and a scientist, all at once.

Point of order. You say "magician," but at that time the field of Chymistry (i.e. alchemy on its way to becoming chemistry) was a part of what were known as the natural magics (the precursors of astronomy, biology, botony, chemistry and physics; a literal example of Clarke's inverse law; any sufficiently studied magic becomes science).

Sir Newton was not an occultist attempting to summon up or bargain with spirits when not working on optics, gravity and calculus; he was also a proto-chemist.

Alchemy was in some sense proto-chemistry, but it was pursued with a very different methodology and purpose. Alchemists - including Newton - had a personal relationship with the formulae they were mixing in search of spiritual enlightenment. They saw themselves as trying to unlock secrets of the ancients. They published their findings as coded poetry talking about the green lion, the two-headed hermaphrodite, and other symbols - which Newton read and annotated though he didn't publish his own such works.

This overlaps with scientific findings, but there are major differences. Newton did a lot of experimentation with chemicals, but for him most of that was very private and personal work, in keeping with alchemical tradition.

As a Christian, you're both wrong, and you're both falling for the same trap: Inserting yourself with all of your IRL preconceptions into the Game World.

Newton (or anybody else for that matter) NEVER saw a cleric heal an amputated leg, never saw ANY of the vaunted Alchemists cast fireball, he was operating on FAITH.

But in a world where gods walk the earth or at the very least intervene daily in the affairs of mortals, where magic is very much real, where supernatural beings like Dragons, Immortal Elves, long lived Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, etc. not only exist but the common man has to deal with them, where in your lifetime a battle between the forces of good and evil took place close enough so you could hear or see it, where your uncle and his family the next town over got murdered by werewolves.

In such a world faith isn't neccesary and wouldn't exist, people would ACTUALLY KNOW the gods are real.

From this it follows that if the common explanation for something people don't understand (as it usually is) is because the gods will it. Who would doubt it? Why? There's no reason to do so.

Newton didn't discover anything in a vacuum, he was building on stuff others did before him. When he couldn't explain one aspect of the planets moving what did he do? "God's Will" that was his answer.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2023, 02:10:54 PM
As a Christian, you're both wrong, and you're both falling for the same trap: Inserting yourself with all of your IRL preconceptions into the Game World.

Newton (or anybody else for that matter) NEVER saw a cleric heal an amputated leg, never saw ANY of the vaunted Alchemists cast fireball, he was operating on FAITH.

But in a world where gods walk the earth or at the very least intervene daily in the affairs of mortals, where magic is very much real, where supernatural beings like Dragons, Immortal Elves, long lived Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, etc. not only exist but the common man has to deal with them, where in your lifetime a battle between the forces of good and evil took place close enough so you could hear or see it, where your uncle and his family the next town over got murdered by werewolves.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2023, 02:10:54 PM
From this it follows that if the common explanation for something people don't understand (as it usually is) is because the gods will it. Who would doubt it? Why? There's no reason to do so.

I think you're implying that "because the gods will it" means that people wouldn't try to understand further. If so, you're asserting a contradiction here based on your real-life preconceptions. Logically, there is no contradiction between "gravity is because the gods will it" and "gravity is described by a force proportional to both masses and inversely proportional to distance".

In the real world, magic and theology are opposed to scientific methodology because the real world doesn't have fireballs. One can't experimentally verify real-world magic or theology. However, if fireballs were real, then magicians would absolutely study and experiment and document their work to find out what process produced the most powerful fireball. Clerics would carefully document what exactly their god supports and how to maximize healing.

In a world with fireballs, magic and science would be the same thing, and all would be experimented with and could potentially be investigated scientifically.

Quote from: jhkim on December 06, 2023, 05:54:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2023, 02:10:54 PM
As a Christian, you're both wrong, and you're both falling for the same trap: Inserting yourself with all of your IRL preconceptions into the Game World.

Newton (or anybody else for that matter) NEVER saw a cleric heal an amputated leg, never saw ANY of the vaunted Alchemists cast fireball, he was operating on FAITH.

But in a world where gods walk the earth or at the very least intervene daily in the affairs of mortals, where magic is very much real, where supernatural beings like Dragons, Immortal Elves, long lived Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, etc. not only exist but the common man has to deal with them, where in your lifetime a battle between the forces of good and evil took place close enough so you could hear or see it, where your uncle and his family the next town over got murdered by werewolves.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2023, 02:10:54 PM
From this it follows that if the common explanation for something people don't understand (as it usually is) is because the gods will it. Who would doubt it? Why? There's no reason to do so.

I think you're implying that "because the gods will it" means that people wouldn't try to understand further. If so, you're asserting a contradiction here based on your real-life preconceptions. Logically, there is no contradiction between "gravity is because the gods will it" and "gravity is described by a force proportional to both masses and inversely proportional to distance".

In the real world, magic and theology are opposed to scientific methodology because the real world doesn't have fireballs. One can't experimentally verify real-world magic or theology. However, if fireballs were real, then magicians would absolutely study and experiment and document their work to find out what process produced the most powerful fireball. Clerics would carefully document what exactly their god supports and how to maximize healing.

In a world with fireballs, magic and science would be the same thing, and all would be experimented with and could potentially be investigated scientifically.

Now you're trying to change the argument.

I said in my first post in the thread that a "revolution" would be magical not scientific. Of course if you now change the definitions so they are one and the same...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2023, 10:24:47 PM
Now you're trying to change the argument.

I said in my first post in the thread that a "revolution" would be magical not scientific. Of course if you now change the definitions so they are one and the same...

Science =/= Technology.

Science is the formalized study of the cosmos through the methods of hypothesis, tests with controlled variables yielding measurable results. As such, it is as applicable to "magic" as it is to real-world processes.

At this point I'll presume you're familiar with Clarke's law; Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. The same is true in reverse, any sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from technology.

Magic and the Supernatural are only ever so until you know how it works. Once you understand it, it might be exotic, but it is a natural process.

Flight was a magical thing, until we studied it enough to understand the processes involved and developed light enough materials and strong enough engines to achieve it.

Further, there is nothing that is supernatural to God. He understands everything perfectly and so the process by which He created the heavens and earth and all that dwells within it is a perfectly rational and natural process (the only reason that wouldn't be science is because He determined what the rules of nature were so He has no need to use science to discover them).

Basically, what is Magic and what is Technology is entirely subjective to the observer. A steel sword is magic to a caveman, an airplane is magic to a medieval, teleportation would be magic to us. To the person who built the sword, the airplane or the teleporter it's just technology.

And the process used to achieve each was some variation of trial and error to understand what was and was not possible. Science is just the formalization of that process of trial and error and something akin to it would certainly exist anywhere that a process was repeatable enough to useful.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 07, 2023, 08:49:06 AM
And the process used to achieve each was some variation of trial and error to understand what was and was not possible. Science is just the formalization of that process of trial and error and something akin to it would certainly exist anywhere that a process was repeatable enough to useful.

Something "akin to" science would exist - but the specific question was about the Scientific Revolution, which was much more specific than just trial and error. It is a formal process of hypothesis, experimentation, peer review, and publication in a standardized format.

I mentioned that in my game world, there are benevolent gods and spirits that know a lot more than mortals, and they are generally dominant. So I don't think that a Scientific Revolution would happen culturally - because mortals could gain accurate knowledge about how things work without science. In a world with antagonistic gods, they might disrupt a Scientific Revolution if they disliked it. But there's space in fantasy worlds where a Scientific Revolution might happen, depending on what the gods are like and what they do.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2023, 10:24:47 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 06, 2023, 05:54:49 PM
In the real world, magic and theology are opposed to scientific methodology because the real world doesn't have fireballs. One can't experimentally verify real-world magic or theology. However, if fireballs were real, then magicians would absolutely study and experiment and document their work to find out what process produced the most powerful fireball. Clerics would carefully document what exactly their god supports and how to maximize healing.

In a world with fireballs, magic and science would be the same thing, and all would be experimented with and could potentially be investigated scientifically.

Now you're trying to change the argument.

I said in my first post in the thread that a "revolution" would be magical not scientific. Of course if you now change the definitions so they are one and the same...

Sorry, I think the terminology might be confusing here. As I said, in RPGs, a fireball is "magic" and gravity is "science". That's because gravity exists in the real world and fireballs don't. But there's also real-world implications about what the process is for "magic" and what is "science". In the game-world, a group could start organized study of fireballs, making hypotheses, doing experiments about what makes the biggest fireball, and publishing the results. That would be applying the Scientific Method to it.

So there's a clash between science meaning "stuff that exists in the real world" and science meaning "a specific organized method of studying phenomena".

Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2023, 03:30:02 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 07, 2023, 08:49:06 AM
And the process used to achieve each was some variation of trial and error to understand what was and was not possible. Science is just the formalization of that process of trial and error and something akin to it would certainly exist anywhere that a process was repeatable enough to useful.

Something "akin to" science would exist - but the specific question was about the Scientific Revolution, which was much more specific than just trial and error. It is a formal process of hypothesis, experimentation, peer review, and publication in a standardized format.

I mentioned that in my game world, there are benevolent gods and spirits that know a lot more than mortals, and they are generally dominant. So I don't think that a Scientific Revolution would happen culturally - because mortals could gain accurate knowledge about how things work without science. In a world with antagonistic gods, they might disrupt a Scientific Revolution if they disliked it. But there's space in fantasy worlds where a Scientific Revolution might happen, depending on what the gods are like and what they do.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 06, 2023, 10:24:47 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 06, 2023, 05:54:49 PM
In the real world, magic and theology are opposed to scientific methodology because the real world doesn't have fireballs. One can't experimentally verify real-world magic or theology. However, if fireballs were real, then magicians would absolutely study and experiment and document their work to find out what process produced the most powerful fireball. Clerics would carefully document what exactly their god supports and how to maximize healing.

In a world with fireballs, magic and science would be the same thing, and all would be experimented with and could potentially be investigated scientifically.

Now you're trying to change the argument.

I said in my first post in the thread that a "revolution" would be magical not scientific. Of course if you now change the definitions so they are one and the same...

Sorry, I think the terminology might be confusing here. As I said, in RPGs, a fireball is "magic" and gravity is "science". That's because gravity exists in the real world and fireballs don't. But there's also real-world implications about what the process is for "magic" and what is "science". In the game-world, a group could start organized study of fireballs, making hypotheses, doing experiments about what makes the biggest fireball, and publishing the results. That would be applying the Scientific Method to it.

So there's a clash between science meaning "stuff that exists in the real world" and science meaning "a specific organized method of studying phenomena".

Assuming magic in your world works following some matemathical or logical rules then yes, there would be a magic revolution with magic usurping the place of science to achieve "progress".

As for science being the formalization of a process... Wrong, that's the scientific method, science is what comes out as true so far as we know by using such method and tech is the practical application of science.

So, in a world where magic is real (and can be studied because it follows some rules or laws), there would be a revolution with wizards inventing a floating rug  anyone can use, magic shields that activate by touching a rune, etc.

But what if magic doesn't follow rules? What if the exact way you cast fireball doesn't work for others?

Thing is a "technological" revolution would be possible in the first case, by understanding the rules/laws of magic. Not in the other case.

But it wouldn't be a scientific revolution.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2023, 06:08:39 PM
Assuming magic in your world works following some matemathical or logical rules then yes, there would be a magic revolution with magic usurping the place of science to achieve "progress".

As for science being the formalization of a process... Wrong, that's the scientific method, science is what comes out as true so far as we know by using such method and tech is the practical application of science.

Bolding mine above. You define science as what comes out as true, but in the game-world, fireballs are objectively true. A wizard can reliably produce a fireball, whose properties can be measured. If fireballs are true, then by this definition, they are science.

Regardless of terminology, I don't see why a Magic Revolution would usurp a Scientific Revolution. Different disciplines often support each other. In our world, the revolution in astronomy didn't usurp or disrupt discoveries in biology or chemistry. Certain spells could make it easier to carry out many scientific experiments, and conversely, there could be many uses for science in understanding spells. For example, in our world, testing whether lightning was electricity was dangerous because there was no reliable source of lightning. But magic could allow repeatable tests of what high-voltage electricity can do. It might allow the development of lightning rods and a greater understanding of electricity and conductivity.

Quote from: jhkim on December 07, 2023, 08:19:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2023, 06:08:39 PM
Assuming magic in your world works following some matemathical or logical rules then yes, there would be a magic revolution with magic usurping the place of science to achieve "progress".

As for science being the formalization of a process... Wrong, that's the scientific method, science is what comes out as true so far as we know by using such method and tech is the practical application of science.

Bolding mine above. You define science as what comes out as true, but in the game-world, fireballs are objectively true. A wizard can reliably produce a fireball, whose properties can be measured. If fireballs are true, then by this definition, they are science.

Regardless of terminology, I don't see why a Magic Revolution would usurp a Scientific Revolution. Different disciplines often support each other. In our world, the revolution in astronomy didn't usurp or disrupt discoveries in biology or chemistry. Certain spells could make it easier to carry out many scientific experiments, and conversely, there could be many uses for science in understanding spells. For example, in our world, testing whether lightning was electricity was dangerous because there was no reliable source of lightning. But magic could allow repeatable tests of what high-voltage electricity can do. It might allow the development of lightning rods and a greater understanding of electricity and conductivity.

Stop trying to redefine terms.

Science is the output of the scientific method it's what comes out as true AS FAR AS WE KNOW. Science, by definition needs to be falsifiable, if it can't be falsified in any way then it's not science.

So, for your redefiniton of terms to even work fireballs need to be the output of an hypothesis, followed by experimentation and the final theory needs to have conditions under which it can be falsified.

For example if you were to EVER find a crocoduck you falsify evolution.

You do understand that astronomy, biology & chemistry are different scientific disciplines don't you?

If, barring a fusion reactor, you could turn lead into gold you'd be violating several laws.

Same goes for wall of iron, stone or ice.

How does a wizard cast lightning without getting zapped by it?

More scientific laws being violated.

How do you become a member of the opposite sex? No higher animal can.

How do you become a member of a different species?

Do you understand that magic violates ALL scientific laws?

So either they don't exist or they allow for magic in the game world, BUT, assuming the latter, fly, tenser's floating disk...

So gravity can be cancelled at will...

Now please explain how the fuck does a scientific revolution (that's the question, not a technological one) take place? Are you just going to handwave the laws needed for it? I mean you can, it's your world, but IMHO it makes zero sense.

Now, in my world maybe people could reach other worlds, but it would be achieved by different means than IRL.

Yes, I know the lazy and tired "Any sufficiently... blah, blah, blah", feelfree to use it all you want IMHO it just dilutes the wonder of a mythical world where magic is real.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2023, 08:43:07 PM
Science is the output of the scientific method it's what comes out as true AS FAR AS WE KNOW. Science, by definition needs to be falsifiable, if it can't be falsified in any way then it's not science.

So, for your redefiniton of terms to even work fireballs need to be the output of an hypothesis, followed by experimentation and the final theory needs to have conditions under which it can be falsified.

For example if you were to EVER find a crocoduck you falsify evolution.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2023, 08:43:07 PM
Do you understand that magic violates ALL scientific laws?

Magic like fireballs violate the scientific laws of the real world, but that's not the same as the scientific laws of a fantasy world. Different universes work differently, so there must be different scientific laws. These are two overlapping but not identical sets:

(1) Laws of Science - real world (or LoS-RW)

(2) Laws of Science - fantasy world (or LoS-FW)

In the real world, if scientists are faced with data that don't match the predictions, then the laws are wrong and have to be revised to account for the new data. If in the real world, someone showed up who could throw fireballs, then scientists wouldn't just ignore him and say "Oh, science doesn't cover this." They'd study and see how he did it. i.e. The laws of science would be revised to account for the observed phenomena of fireball-throwing.

Scientists don't ignore parts of the world that don't fit their theories. They revise their theories to match the events of the world.

In a fantasy world, scientists would make hypotheses and try to discover LoS-FW. What they would come up with would be different than LoS-RW because different things are true in the different worlds. Different data leads to different conclusions.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 07, 2023, 08:43:07 PM
Now please explain how the fuck does a scientific revolution (that's the question, not a technological one) take place? Are you just going to handwave the laws needed for it? I mean you can, it's your world, but IMHO it makes zero sense.

Now, in my world maybe people could reach other worlds, but it would be achieved by different means than IRL.

Yes, I know the lazy and tired "Any sufficiently... blah, blah, blah", feelfree to use it all you want IMHO it just dilutes the wonder of a mythical world where magic is real.

I don't think that fireballs produce any great mythic wonder. Indeed, I think that most fantasy RPGs are lacking in any sense of wonder to their magic. It's no more wondrous than flamethrowers and grenades. If one wants more wondrous and mythic magic, I have an old essay on that:

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html

I should make some sort of update on that.

Quote from: jhkim on December 08, 2023, 01:41:07 AM
I don't think that fireballs produce any great mythic wonder. Indeed, I think that most fantasy RPGs are lacking in any sense of wonder to their magic. It's no more wondrous than flamethrowers and grenades. If one wants more wondrous and mythic magic, I have an old essay on that:

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html

I should make some sort of update on that.

Good article. It sums up nicely why D&D's base mechanics and assumptions lead to a setting where magic is effectively a field of science (and gods are just extra-dimensional master wielders of magic energy who can grant some of it to people devoted to it, but also that sufficiently powerful PCs can just hop dimensions and kill).

Frankly, my setting being largely "gonzo D&D" and it's logical conclusions are why I stopped calling it a fantasy setting and switched to "science fantasy" to describe it.

Mages are cargo-culting a Precursor nano-machine network. They use Arcane to describe it because the normal definition for arcane is "poorly understood." Some are purely theoretical/research scientists (trying to understand the Arcane Web and its functions through trial and error) while most PCs are going the more "applied sciences" route.

QuoteAs a Christian, you're both wrong, and you're both falling for the same trap: Inserting yourself with all of your IRL preconceptions into the Game World.

Newton (or anybody else for that matter) NEVER saw a cleric heal an amputated leg, never saw ANY of the vaunted Alchemists cast fireball, he was operating on FAITH.

On the contrary. You put modern preconceptions dividing magic and science and religion into separate neat exclusive boxes.
But people pre-Englightement were not like this, and most people then would say you about things they've seen or really believed happen that they considered magical in some way.

Sure no one was throwing fireballs, or other vulgar magicks to use Mage jargon, but well for most history human believes about magic didn't really included fireballs

Point is - strong conviction about supernatural and spiritual influencing world constantly never stopped people of intellectual inclination from trying to discern how things works.
Even if you have cleric healing amputated leg - that's still something that happened in some way. There are rules to it. Rules can be checked, and analysed, and written down. Both in magic, in religion and in science.

QuoteBut in a world where gods walk the earth or at the very least intervene daily in the affairs of mortals, where magic is very much real, where supernatural beings like Dragons, Immortal Elves, long lived Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, etc. not only exist but the common man has to deal with them, where in your lifetime a battle between the forces of good and evil took place close enough so you could hear or see it, where your uncle and his family the next town over got murdered by werewolves.

In such a world faith isn't neccesary and wouldn't exist, people would ACTUALLY KNOW the gods are real.

And if you KNOW empirically Gods are real, that's even more reason to research their ways, and try to find logic and rule to their behavior.
Dwarves exists? Perfect. Let's make a section of one's body to see how he differs from goblin in terms of internal organs. Like why not?

As long as there are some stable rules to your reality - they can be researched.
Now can scientific revolution happen in strict sense - I'd say like any other revolution it depends on material conditions.
If your artificers and alchemists are so good there is no economical push for industries - then sure chances of industrial revolution are low. But if your magical world has limited number of such esoteric researchers and their power is limited - then you still need non-magical engineers, stonemasons, mathematicians, architects and so on.
For scientific revolution even with magic what you need is stable network of researchers academias - like European universities evolved into.

QuoteFrom this it follows that if the common explanation for something people don't understand (as it usually is) is because the gods will it. Who would doubt it? Why? There's no reason to do so.

Yeah you know it was common explanation in our world as well. For centuries.
Never stopped researchers from research, because unless your world is eldritch nightmare of chaotically changing rules every day, that means rules exist, they can be predicted, and you want to predict them, because unless it's rare setting when gods are constantly speaking in everyones heads what to do - your fantasy folk still need to predict how reality operates to you know... LIVE.
And that's begininng of science - noticing and applying patterns in observable world.

QuoteNewton didn't discover anything in a vacuum, he was building on stuff others did before him. When he couldn't explain one aspect of the planets moving what did he do? "God's Will" that was his answer.

Yeah and you see Newton used God as Gap-filler indeed, but only after reaching limits of own research, and not seeing other options. He did not resigned from researching of Natural Order just because God willed it.

QuoteI said in my first post in the thread that a "revolution" would be magical not scientific. Of course if you now change the definitions so they are one and the same...

Yes, and no. Those are not contradictionary things really.
Magic is personal art of using certain powers in universe, to personally achieve results beyond your usual limitations. Science is organised empirical research of phenomena.
Magical revolution would be more akin to industrial revolution - one that would popularise use of magic as art to masses, or allow magicians to replace whole industries.
Science revolution is basically raise of academia - any real phenomenon magical or not would fall under such scrutiny.

You can have world with magic with scientific and not magical revolution (because for instance magic is still quite rare and cannot dominate world markets), you can have on with magical but not scientific - magical industries, but no organised academical traditions to serve as basis for organised research, you can have neither and both.

QuoteBasically, what is Magic and what is Technology is entirely subjective to the observer. A steel sword is magic to a caveman, an airplane is magic to a medieval, teleportation would be magic to us. To the person who built the sword, the airplane or the teleporter it's just technology.

That I would not agree completely. I can easily envision various ways of magick that would not exactly fit as technology. More like art.
In a way martial art is not technology though it has techniques - because results are strictly dependent of living sentient user - I can give you pencil and it gonna work the same way, I cannot pass karate chops the same way. Like wand that can be used by anyone would be technology I guess, achieved by magical craft. Fireball - not necessarily.

QuoteWrong, that's the scientific method, science is what comes out as true so far as we know by using such method and tech is the practical application of science.

According to Oxford dictionary science is "knowledge about the structure and behaviour of the natural and physical world, based on facts that you can prove, for example by experiments".
As such in-verse of any fantasy or sci-fi world it can be applied as in-world science towards phenomena we consider supernatural, magical or just well fake. If magic in your setting can undergo empirical scrutiny - therefore it can be object of scientific research. Simple as that.

QuoteBut what if magic doesn't follow rules? What if the exact way you cast fireball doesn't work for others?

Thing is a "technological" revolution would be possible in the first case, by understanding the rules/laws of magic. Not in the other case.

But it wouldn't be a scientific revolution.

If magic is predictable you can totally put it into scientific revolution area. It may or not compete with industrial revolution - but industrial =/= scientific.
Scientific revolution was limited to evolution of academia - sure it was symbiotic with industry but they are not the same.

Industrial Revolution(s) were changes in way of producing things that changes economic relations and lifestyle of people in wide regard.
Magical Revolution could replace it - or not, they could co-exist - that's steampunk common motive - Magicians and Engineers working together to umph mutual work.
Golem gonna be way more effective if done from proper tight gear system rather than clay mould let's say

On the other hand Scientific Revolution happened on academia, and it's separate problem altogether. Science replaced let's say very simplisticly Scholastic methods, rationalism kinda dumping on empiricism.

QuoteScience is the output of the scientific method it's what comes out as true AS FAR AS WE KNOW. Science, by definition needs to be falsifiable, if it can't be falsified in any way then it's not science.

Magick can be falsifiable in fantasy settings so?

QuoteFor example if you were to EVER find a crocoduck you falsify evolution.

No you won't because Theory of Evolution is paradigm and not scientific theory. It's general model.
You gonna falsify specific theories about origin and relation of crocodiles, and ducks, and timeline of their emergence - not evolution as whole.

QuoteIf, barring a fusion reactor, you could turn lead into gold you'd be violating several laws.

Same goes for wall of iron, stone or ice.

How does a wizard cast lightning without getting zapped by it?

More scientific laws being violated.

Yes, but in fantasy world scientific laws CAN BE DIFFERENT.

QuoteNow please explain how the fuck does a scientific revolution (that's the question, not a technological one) take place? Are you just going to handwave the laws needed for it? I mean you can, it's your world, but IMHO it makes zero sense.

I don't see a problem.
Laws still exist. Magic still works withing laws, it can give extra energy for instance to transform things without fusion - but still magician needs to arcanelly conjure this energy according to specific laws and rules. Unless it's wanton dream whatever magic then indeed any empiricism will fall.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 13, 2024, 02:48:11 PM

QuoteBasically, what is Magic and what is Technology is entirely subjective to the observer. A steel sword is magic to a caveman, an airplane is magic to a medieval, teleportation would be magic to us. To the person who built the sword, the airplane or the teleporter it's just technology.

That I would not agree completely. I can easily envision various ways of magick that would not exactly fit as technology. More like art.

In a way martial art is not technology though it has techniques - because results are strictly dependent of living sentient user - I can give you pencil and it gonna work the same way, I cannot pass karate chops the same way. Like wand that can be used by anyone would be technology I guess, achieved by magical craft. Fireball - not necessarily.

I mostly agree on the other stuff, but for clarity, I am speaking above of the perception gap between, say a 5 year old kid watching a magic show, and the magician performing the tricks.

To the kid it's pure magic when the magician pulls a coin from his ear.

To the magician it's using the arts of misdirection and sleight of hand (which are well understood and practiced by him and certainly not "supernatural").

It is also known to be misdirection and sleight of hand by many adults, ergo not "supernatural", even if they are incapable of performing the tasks themselves (just as a person can understand the principles of the karate kick without being able to perform it... the martial arts are not "magic" even if they can't perform them).

Thus, whether the trick is magic or mundane depends entirely on the perspective of the observer.

What would be seen as supernatural to the average peasant might be understood as a science by a wizard (ex. biomechanics and physics are the foundation of the martial arts... the principles of manipulating the Weave so it releases a magic spell could be the foundation of wizardry) even if it's applications are largely "art" (the training to use martial arts or properly performing the movements and sounds and what materials are needed to manipulate the Weave in a specific way).

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 13, 2024, 02:48:11 PM

QuoteAs a Christian, you're both wrong, and you're both falling for the same trap: Inserting yourself with all of your IRL preconceptions into the Game World.

Newton (or anybody else for that matter) NEVER saw a cleric heal an amputated leg, never saw ANY of the vaunted Alchemists cast fireball, he was operating on FAITH.

On the contrary. You put modern preconceptions dividing magic and science and religion into separate neat exclusive boxes.
But people pre-Englightement were not like this, and most people then would say you about things they've seen or really believed happen that they considered magical in some way.

Sure no one was throwing fireballs, or other vulgar magicks to use Mage jargon, but well for most history human believes about magic didn't really included fireballs

Point is - strong conviction about supernatural and spiritual influencing world constantly never stopped people of intellectual inclination from trying to discern how things works.
Even if you have cleric healing amputated leg - that's still something that happened in some way. There are rules to it. Rules can be checked, and analysed, and written down. Both in magic, in religion and in science.

QuoteBut in a world where gods walk the earth or at the very least intervene daily in the affairs of mortals, where magic is very much real, where supernatural beings like Dragons, Immortal Elves, long lived Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, etc. not only exist but the common man has to deal with them, where in your lifetime a battle between the forces of good and evil took place close enough so you could hear or see it, where your uncle and his family the next town over got murdered by werewolves.

In such a world faith isn't neccesary and wouldn't exist, people would ACTUALLY KNOW the gods are real.

And if you KNOW empirically Gods are real, that's even more reason to research their ways, and try to find logic and rule to their behavior.
Dwarves exists? Perfect. Let's make a section of one's body to see how he differs from goblin in terms of internal organs. Like why not?

As long as there are some stable rules to your reality - they can be researched.
Now can scientific revolution happen in strict sense - I'd say like any other revolution it depends on material conditions.
If your artificers and alchemists are so good there is no economical push for industries - then sure chances of industrial revolution are low. But if your magical world has limited number of such esoteric researchers and their power is limited - then you still need non-magical engineers, stonemasons, mathematicians, architects and so on.
For scientific revolution even with magic what you need is stable network of researchers academias - like European universities evolved into.

QuoteFrom this it follows that if the common explanation for something people don't understand (as it usually is) is because the gods will it. Who would doubt it? Why? There's no reason to do so.

Yeah you know it was common explanation in our world as well. For centuries.
Never stopped researchers from research, because unless your world is eldritch nightmare of chaotically changing rules every day, that means rules exist, they can be predicted, and you want to predict them, because unless it's rare setting when gods are constantly speaking in everyones heads what to do - your fantasy folk still need to predict how reality operates to you know... LIVE.
And that's begininng of science - noticing and applying patterns in observable world.

QuoteNewton didn't discover anything in a vacuum, he was building on stuff others did before him. When he couldn't explain one aspect of the planets moving what did he do? "God's Will" that was his answer.

Yeah and you see Newton used God as Gap-filler indeed, but only after reaching limits of own research, and not seeing other options. He did not resigned from researching of Natural Order just because God willed it.

QuoteI said in my first post in the thread that a "revolution" would be magical not scientific. Of course if you now change the definitions so they are one and the same...

Yes, and no. Those are not contradictionary things really.
Magic is personal art of using certain powers in universe, to personally achieve results beyond your usual limitations. Science is organised empirical research of phenomena.
Magical revolution would be more akin to industrial revolution - one that would popularise use of magic as art to masses, or allow magicians to replace whole industries.
Science revolution is basically raise of academia - any real phenomenon magical or not would fall under such scrutiny.

You can have world with magic with scientific and not magical revolution (because for instance magic is still quite rare and cannot dominate world markets), you can have on with magical but not scientific - magical industries, but no organised academical traditions to serve as basis for organised research, you can have neither and both.

QuoteBasically, what is Magic and what is Technology is entirely subjective to the observer. A steel sword is magic to a caveman, an airplane is magic to a medieval, teleportation would be magic to us. To the person who built the sword, the airplane or the teleporter it's just technology.

That I would not agree completely. I can easily envision various ways of magick that would not exactly fit as technology. More like art.
In a way martial art is not technology though it has techniques - because results are strictly dependent of living sentient user - I can give you pencil and it gonna work the same way, I cannot pass karate chops the same way. Like wand that can be used by anyone would be technology I guess, achieved by magical craft. Fireball - not necessarily.

QuoteWrong, that's the scientific method, science is what comes out as true so far as we know by using such method and tech is the practical application of science.

According to Oxford dictionary science is "knowledge about the structure and behaviour of the natural and physical world, based on facts that you can prove, for example by experiments".
As such in-verse of any fantasy or sci-fi world it can be applied as in-world science towards phenomena we consider supernatural, magical or just well fake. If magic in your setting can undergo empirical scrutiny - therefore it can be object of scientific research. Simple as that.

QuoteBut what if magic doesn't follow rules? What if the exact way you cast fireball doesn't work for others?

Thing is a "technological" revolution would be possible in the first case, by understanding the rules/laws of magic. Not in the other case.

But it wouldn't be a scientific revolution.

If magic is predictable you can totally put it into scientific revolution area. It may or not compete with industrial revolution - but industrial =/= scientific.
Scientific revolution was limited to evolution of academia - sure it was symbiotic with industry but they are not the same.

Industrial Revolution(s) were changes in way of producing things that changes economic relations and lifestyle of people in wide regard.
Magical Revolution could replace it - or not, they could co-exist - that's steampunk common motive - Magicians and Engineers working together to umph mutual work.
Golem gonna be way more effective if done from proper tight gear system rather than clay mould let's say

On the other hand Scientific Revolution happened on academia, and it's separate problem altogether. Science replaced let's say very simplisticly Scholastic methods, rationalism kinda dumping on empiricism.

QuoteScience is the output of the scientific method it's what comes out as true AS FAR AS WE KNOW. Science, by definition needs to be falsifiable, if it can't be falsified in any way then it's not science.

Magick can be falsifiable in fantasy settings so?

QuoteFor example if you were to EVER find a crocoduck you falsify evolution.

No you won't because Theory of Evolution is paradigm and not scientific theory. It's general model.
You gonna falsify specific theories about origin and relation of crocodiles, and ducks, and timeline of their emergence - not evolution as whole.

QuoteIf, barring a fusion reactor, you could turn lead into gold you'd be violating several laws.

Same goes for wall of iron, stone or ice.

How does a wizard cast lightning without getting zapped by it?

More scientific laws being violated.

Yes, but in fantasy world scientific laws CAN BE DIFFERENT.

QuoteNow please explain how the fuck does a scientific revolution (that's the question, not a technological one) take place? Are you just going to handwave the laws needed for it? I mean you can, it's your world, but IMHO it makes zero sense.

I don't see a problem.
Laws still exist. Magic still works withing laws, it can give extra energy for instance to transform things without fusion - but still magician needs to arcanelly conjure this energy according to specific laws and rules. Unless it's wanton dream whatever magic then indeed any empiricism will fall.

You keep equivocating between science and technology.

I've said multiple times (you quoted several) that a magic fuelled technological revolution would be possible.

You don't seem to understand falsifiable, we need to have a propossed path to prove X to be false, if there's none then it's faith not science.

Now, when you can see magic being done, when you can learn to perform magic deeds, when there's no smoke and mirrors involved, what's the path to prove magic isn't real?

People were building mega structures long before they knew math or material resistance. Even going so far as to orienting them to the solsctices before they knew what were those lights or why they alkways moved like that.

Empirical knowledge, not scientific knowledge was used for most of our history.

A crockoduck falsifies evolution, for several evolutionary facts and laws being violated/proven false.

But giving you a lesson about evolution or scientific theories is off topic.